can you speculate on who those players might be?/you suspect them to be if your speculations are correct? or is it a speculative theory that you're waiting to see who fits it if/when it happens?
care to speculate on that further?
Why exactly do you think he's not scummy enough to vote?

guaranteed yes from me. of course whether you believe me or not is up to you.

On the first point, that is a good observation. When you frame it like that, I see what you mean.

On the last point, I'd already argued most of what you did on the flaw at lumping Hijack into this scenario, at least based on what we know, but had missed the "why would he tell us?" I had an instinctual response, but then WIFOMed myself.

So...worth pondering, but while I'm not clearing anybody, Hijack is pretty far down my list of most to least likely deserving of scrutiny. If both adalia and Leonard flip scum, then sure, it's worth revisiting.

Should be interesting to see how the rest of this day plays out. Am starting to question my old gut read of my top 3 order-wise. Tactical read still hasn't changed much though. For better or worse.

Ix, you seriously think Leonard is scum, but Adalia is sooooooo town you won't vote for him?

How do you put that together?

Still scummy.

I was never convinced of the reasons to vote for him in the first place (I had no problem with his hammer vote) and I thought he breadcrumbed some possible antiscum stuff earlier. At this point I'm not sure what I think beyond knowing I won't be one to push his wagon. And I've listed the two people I find most scummy. Beyond that it's too much speculation for me at the moment and I think if I start listing off "suspects" and "could be, maybe, if" that does little more than confuse things too much for no good reason.

And I do believe you about the yes. I also don't think you're scum.

I'm not very good at the ins-and-outs of this game yet regarding roles and claims and implications and their meanings, etc. So, please bear with me while I try to figure out your position/ask you about it in posit form.

If you don't think HijacK is scum it is because: you haven't seen anything scummy from him? you believe he was jailed? (any other reasons?)

if you believe he was jailed: who do you think jailed him? do you believe leonard jailed him? or that someone else did who is not claiming to have done so and leonard is using that to his advantage to fake-claim the jailing?

If you believe leonard did the jailing: do you then believe leonard is scum having jailed a townie? why would he do that? to be able to claim doing so and look town? seems like an odd choice, no? doesn't it make more sense for him to protect his vulnerable scum-buddy? (if hijack wasn't his scum-buddy, wouldn't he have protected someone else?)

if you believe someone else did the jailing: are they not coming forward and claiming it to stay off scum's radar? and they're confident enough that leonard will be lynched soon enough anyway and so don't need to tell everyone he's false-claiming?

If there was a counter-claim that someone else blocked Hijack I missed it. Don't suppose you'd want to highlight it, or the breadcrumbing you think adalia was doing?

On Leonard's claim, I'm not sure it's all that convenient given the number of people speculating that it was at least possible both jailer/blockers are scum. I remember in yogs game, I was town role cop and I crapped my pants when RW flipped town role cop dawn of D2. Claiming a role that may just incite the mob based on existing prejudice is never convenient. Now, "Doctor" is convenient, as long as no one counter-claims.

I won't even go back into the logic of your view of yogs' role/soft claim D1. In any case, you may well be right about Leonard being scum, but if he is scum, I think it fairly likely he's scum jailer based on what's on the table. If he's town, he's almost certainly town jailer. I don't see the rationale on which you're building some case that he's lying about his role, much less that doing so would be convenient.

As for your speculation, come on, don't just hint at what you mean - argue it through! That helps one actually theory-test.

Glossing over why scum would want to attract a whole bunch of attention to each other (as opposed to the time tested method of lurking), and that they don't actually get any "credit" for towniness unless their play results in a scum lynch...

for your theory to even work you'd need a scum team that was at minimum 5 players and arguably 6-7. The other logical problem is that you'd seem to have adalia on this "orchestrating" scum team, but off it for other reasons. So if you think adalia is town, wouldn't you have to acknowledge that town can get on/off wagons as well as scum with no orchestration required?

We may well vote Leonard today when all is said and done, but your arguments are ...interesting. If you are right, at least personally I think you're right for wrong reasons.

^ + bump for bler

Heh, thanks. I hadn't started typing yet - was waiting for the timer so as to not post by accident.

There is a ton to pay attention to in this game, so I have no doubt I'm missing things. If others have an argument for why Hijack is scummy, I'm willing to read it, but he's not in my top half which I'd describe as: scummy to curious. Doesn't mean I'm saying think he's town (might, might not), just that I don't see anything that raises flags compared to a whoooole bunch of other people.

Hijack claimed early in D2 to have been jailed. I have no reason to doubt that. Leonard is claiming to have done it. I don't have any information that suggests the contrary to that either.

Could Leonard be fake-claiming his role and/or action? Possible. Though it was risky in a number of ways - perhaps he was tracked last night and someone knows he didn't visit Hijack at all. Perhaps there is a counter-claim. And even if he buys time he's tied down to a role claim that can potentially be verified/falsified in a number of ways. If he's fibbing, at best it buys him a day.

So for now I'm going with Occam's razor - the available evidence suggests he made the play he claims to have made, barring evidence to the contrary.

Why would scum Leonard make that play? He has to block someone. After Hijack's claim last game, he's not going to be able to spin "town jailer who didn't jail anyone N1," ironically even if he is town jailer. There were only a few other players he could've blocked to spin it as a town action, which applies really regardless of Leonard's alignment, I think.

I've already laid out why I don't buy the P1na/adalia/Leonard/Hijack theory, as a whole (927), and the whole doesn't really work if you take any of those parts out since it was built on assumptions deriving from how their actions all fit together.

So the rest is speculation that may be interesting, but I think distracts from today, and can be re-evaluated D3. Only get to lynch 1 per day, in any case.

Revealing that one is blocked/jailed during the Night is pretty much the only pro-town action. With potential trackers and watchers about, it is the correct choice. Regardless of HijacK's alignment, it would be the proper thing to do, regardless of his alignment.

Even if Leonard03 did jail HijacK, which is at least plausible, I am still fairly certain he is scum. Using a jail on HijacK, regardless of HijacK's alignment, does make sense regardless of whether or not they are scumbuddies. It gives a good alibi if there is a watcher investigating HijacK (which is also plausible, if that role exists in the game), and also if Leonard03 were to be tracked (which is plausible because he was high on the scum-list of some folks, including me). It is an easy "hide in plain sight" method.

Although I really would rather Leonard03, after mulling it over last night, I think it is time to up the heat on adaliabooks. Leonard03 has claimed, now it is your turn, adaliabooks.

Unvote: Leonard03
Vote: adaliabooks

This puts him at L-2. I would ask nobody else vote for him until he claims. If he is scum, I don't want him, or one of his scumbuddies, to quick hammer.

I don't think it would require that many.

And this is why I personally am having such a problem with adalia today. Especially because on one level I do have him town (or at least didn't really suspect him of being scum). That's why I'm basically "recusing" myself from his wagon and very publically doing it. If others feel that strongly one way or the other about him, I'd love to know. But if you (general you, not you in particular bler LOL) are expecting / hoping for me to push / hammer him don't count on it.

Who is We??

In theory it wouldn't require that many, but in the scenario at hand it does.

I have no issue with you voting/not voting I'm just trying to clarify what your argument is, since ultimately that can be analyzed and discussed later more than a vote can.

You could choose to stay off adalia's wagon for a variety of reasons, not all of which would make you town. Same applies to my own position. WHY we do what we do is as or more important than what we did.

I do agree with Krypsyn that we don't want to make any decision on hammering a vs. L until we can see what we're actually working with.


Everyone who's involved and not just hanging out on yogs' wagon.

bler144 already addressed this, but since you seem eager, why don't you start?


Let's see. P1na got his first three votes on Nov 13, after you mentioned him lurking. The next day you made your "I would vote him to avoid no-lynch" post and voted for Krypsyn. Was that an objection? If it was, no-one caught it.
You first stated that you think it's a mistake to lynch him in your post #524, which was after he was already at L-1. Is that objecting "while a wagon is forming"?
Your very next post is the one about adaliabooks also wanting a drink - is this objecting?
Then you go and switch your vote from Krypsyn to flubbucket, a player who had a single joke-vote, making sure to explain yourself in advance for the "dirty looks" you expected to get for doing so - perhaps this is what you call objecting?
And in post #558 you claim to be "tryin to stop us from a mislynch", a post that came after Lynch had already been achieved.

So, sorry, I don't see how your actions invalidated, or even contradict, what I said.

bler144 already covered the "always lynch" part, think about it.

I'm afraid that bler144 also covered your defence regarding your "scum-hunting", but I'll address two things.

I may take my time to vote, but I'm not the one screaming "We can't have No-Lynch!!" to the skies and back, and then sit on my thumbs and do nth about it.

As for bringing flubbucket into this, I really don't like this sort of defence - "hey, give me a break, look at that other guy, isn't he worse than me?". Even now, you're just dodging - you say you have suspects, and have observed little things, yet spend all your time defending yourself in a way that makes us come back and question you more.

On a side note, this part reminded me that flubbucket is indeed not getting flak from anyone, probably due to people attributing his absence and almost obsession-like focus on yogsloth to his playstyle, which ironically seems to be the reason he's so hard on yogsloth.

But now you've made a claim that may or may not be true, or more likely be half-true, which doesn't clear you but has given people pause due to the implications of it. Looks like it saved your skin for one more Day.

Reply to bler144 coming shortly, then have to catch up with what happened today.

Ok, sorry people. I just lost everything I was writing in the past half hour, so you will have to stay tuned.