Actually, I often do suggest the possibility of two mafia teams at some point in games I play in. In 659, Dedo posited the idea that both roleblocks are highly unlikely to be scum, so I offered a possible scenario where both could be scum. He already covered the likelyhoods for two scum RB if there is one scum team. Note that either RB could be from a roleblocker or from a jailer; I don't know which. I can't speak for Dedo, but I haven't discounted that both blocks are actually town, or even that one/both RB claims are lies. I'd tend to doubt either of those last two cases, but it is possible.

Are there two scum teams? I don't know for sure. Ask me again around Day 5, if we're both still alive.

Nothing personal, Leonard. Did you notice how I got a death threat (well, death wish, anyway) from Ixam, in relation to your wagon? I found that interesting. Did you find it interesting?

Did someone say "hammer"? O_O

Can we feed him?

PS: Catching up now.

Technically adalia was the first to "pre-suggest" it early in D1. That still strikes me as the most curious. Whether or not I buy the theory of "two scum teams" is another question, but I don't see the general speculation on setup as inherently problematic once the claims were already on the table.

The bookwyrm as blocker theory seems thin. At that point it didn't require any special knowledge to speculate wildly about alignment, etc. And why would he suggest his own role is scum? "Hey guys, maybe both blockers are scum! And btw I'm town blocker."

Could still be scum, but...I find it unlikely he's a blocker.

I'm curious if yogs remembers the last time he proposed a "two-scum team theory" to me, likewise supposedly based on how players fit together. His exact words were, and I quote: "Tellin ya. Two Scum teams. Book it. Bet your house." Spoiler alert: there was one team. And yogs knew there was only one team. Thank god I didn't own a house.

So pardon if I'm a little skeptical, and wonder if there's some actual evidence around which I should trust him this time. But at the least we seem to agree on two of those as viable, so, there's that. If those two hit, then sure, maybe there's enough to go along further down the line.

Still think adalia is the better first target strategically of the two for a number of reasons, but I'm a broken record and no one apparently cares what I think. ;)

No one else around to answer. Where is everyone this eve? Not sure what to make of that. Anyway, I thought it was interesting. Dunno, I feel like he's somehow managed to stay under peoples' radar. And not sure why.

@Yogs - have you re-read Ix? Of Ix/wyrm, why do you find wyrm more likely to be scummy of the two? Does that still hold if you _don't_ imagine there to be two teams?

At least personally I feel like even if Leonard breaks (or doesn't and inertia just takes over) and this ends up being the final wagon I'd like to see people make an actual vote for being here. If he flips scum, then sure, maybe I wasted your time. But maybe he doesn't.

Just me, hanging out by myself, apparently. Amused by the fact that Hijack's light went out about 5 minutes after his

"P.S. catching up now"

post. "Beep" indeed.

Wondering if drealmer will find himself scummy if he ends up getting prodded in a few hours. Somewhat tempted to unvote adalia just to see drealmer's reaction when he sees he's the only one still on the wagon. ;)

Went away and came back. Still nada. Ah well. Here's my poor attempt at an HSL impersonation:

Couple questions marked with *

D1 there were already 2 votes on P1na when adalia (430), and then you (438) voted drealmer on the theoretical mention of an SK. Not a question, but I find that a bit interesting, both for how thin the votes were, and moreso the timing. Suddenly it was a 2-2 tie! You came over to P1na when it was pretty clear that was likely to roll to the finish. As did I, but then I wasn't trying to start new alternative wagons after P1na's was underway.

You voted yogs in the first 8 or so hours of D1, and part of your stated reason was "to go for a quick one to avoid no-lynch;" and your defense of keeping the vote for 230 posts was that you didn't believe he had a role, yet you were at the same time concerned that wyrm was his "role fishing," correct? Seems a bit of a contradiction. It reads to me like you wanted an excuse to stay on yog's wagon without looking like you were trying to lynch someone claiming a role. FoS on wyrm was a nice bonus, since, as you say, that's been a dead wagon.

Your stated vote for P1na simply says "preposterous" in response to agent's vote count that had you as a non-voter.
*1) How would you characterize the reasons you voted for P1na?

In 581 as your first post of D2 you say " what about adalia has been scummy? I... feel pretty good about him to be honest." And don't go into any detail about why you feel "pretty good" about him.

*2) Why did you feel good about him at the time you made that post?
*3) Has any of the discussion about him D2 changed your opinion?

You mentioned at the start of the day that you found Leonard suspicious as your second choice target, and yet you never made much effort to make a case for voting him. Neither HSL nor I is even on the wagon, and we've both made a much stronger case for why one should be there. Krypsyn has been there all of D2.

You joined adalia on drealmer when you were only the 2nd vote, right? Does Krypsyn smell funny or something?

While the wagon (such as it was) was on adalia, who makes you feel pretty good for some unstated reason (probably the accent), you stayed on wyrm. And here I thought you loved wagons. Your post #332 is one of those jokes that's funny b/c it's true. Wagon shifts to Leonard, and voila, you're on Leonard.

*4) If 581 is to be believed, Leonard is your #2 choice after Wyrm. Has been all of D2. 4 RL days in, presumably you have some sort of stated explanation for why your second choice merits your vote?
*5) What do you think of the possibility/plausibility there are two scum teams?

Yogs/Trent/Wyrm - yeah, I don't love that they hopped on with nada either, but you seem to be the only one who has "suspected" Leonard for quite a while. So you, at the very least, should have something behind that vote beyond the threat at wyrm. Wouldn't want the wagon shifting back to adalia?

As far as I can read, you, adalia, Leonard make good candidates for mafia. Still think I have adalia #1, Ix #2, Leonard #3, but quite possible all are. I have no idea if that makes 1 team or two.

It kind of is. Though I must say, in yog's game lurking did benefit me greatly. There was such low material on me that it made my case against JMich much stronger when it came to the game ending lynch.

I don't know. The subject of 2 scum factions or whatever seems preposterous to me at the moment. It's not the first time multiple blocks happen. It's actually one or two less than in a previous game, and yet this seed of "multiple" scum factions has grown to fascinating proportions given the current data.
Possible? Sure. I can totally see it. Plausible?... Has anyone looked at the data on hand recently?

I don't know. I'm not ready to bite into this subject. Seems like a waste of time for D2, but maybe that's just me.

*reads Hyper's post (798)"

Damn, this is good stuff. Though I must say, you're reading way too much into the RL issues comments. I like to think nobody is such a dick to abuse those things in favor of the game, even though I myself often look like I'm doing that. I give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to that, but if issues persist I think it's time to call for a replacement.

Everybody seems to ignore my candidates always. *sigh* Maybe my arguments are not good enough... or maybe everyone just sucks...

I really need to watch Firefly one of these days. The MMO will come out.

I'm gonna say: NAMBLA is disgusting and I wouldn't hesitate to punch someone if they were advocating for it.

That's what she said.

Uhm... Hello! How are you?

Terrible choice of military, I must say.

Not sure what to make of Leonard. I can't quite tell whether he reminds me of his play as a neutral in yogs game or not.
But I do think he will flip (if possibly not scum) anti town.

A little bit leery of the speed wagon, but that does appear to be how we role here in the Shire...

Anyway, while it's probably going to look like an attempt to save my own ass;

Vote Leonard03

College internet. Gotta love it.

Also, bler. One does not simply catch up when you post things as big as Babylon itself. For realz. >.>

You know. This is funny because it goes both ways of the street. If Leonard flips town one might look at how you're manipulating things with a suspicious eye, especially since you two are making hard cases but not putting your money where your mouths are. Afraid to soil the hands? Just a thought. I couldn't help but notice this however. In the past people have been all over players who were making strong cases and not backing their words. What changed? Fascinating meta, I must say. It almost feels like the huge League of Legends changes that were just introduced.

Yes. Yes, he does.

I'm not a fan of those overly hyped accents of different regions where English is the official language...but British chicks do have some kind of charm like none others.... must be because of the tea or something.

*refreshes*
Oh, I see adalia voted. Leonard should be at L-2 now. While I must say, I don't see him as scum, I am suspicious of him, but I'm not inclined to vote, even if the hammer place is open. There have been... what? 6 votes in 12 hours or so? Aaaaaannndddd while the case made against Leonard is strong, people who voted barely outlined their reasons, and those who made the strong cases are not voting. What kind of gibberish crepuscular zone is this?

I don't like it. The deadline is miles away. I'm waiting for those who voted to detail me why they did that.
And here. For those who wonder what I, myself, see suspicious in him: I am not a fond of the fence sitting he's been doing and meaningless votes he threw around just to look like he's doing something. I find his play relatively more defensive than in previous games. I recall being all over him in RWare's game (?)[I may be wrong. Maybe it was yog's game?] and he dealt with the accusations in a much more professional manner. He kept he's cool. Maybe the pressure is making him slip? Maybe. Or maybe it's something else.

Regardless, I don't like how fast things shifted in these 12 hours. And adalia voting to save his ass, just like he said it would look like (because it does look like that), only amplifies my reluctance. However, if a deadline should come with no consensus being reached I'm contempt with placing my vote on him.

Alas, I shall depart now, esteemed gentlemen. I am required to sleep in preparation for this night. It's Friday. Another Friday, another wild party. I better get ready.

I'm pretty sure the original post by yog wasn't for you in particular but a bunch of people. Yet you responded almost immediately with "I'm not avoiding it." It just felt like "guilty conscience needs no accuser".



You confirm that you aren't scum-hunting?



Yes, it was.


I would call it "super sensitive". But he is strangely surprised at the way he is being questioned when his participation pretty much is calling for it.



Are you going to expand a bit on that?



What if he doesn't back down? He's all good then?



I agree there are couple of flimsy ones that claim to be pressure based (yes, they may be exactly that, but come on, what's the point in giving it away? It seems more like an easy reason to jump on) but you can't deny Leonard's participation and reasoning so far doesn't call for attention. I was going to vote myself, but we are closer now and I will be off for the majority of the day today (read on that below) and I don't want to not have control over the vote.


I haven't caught up entirely (There are a few posts left but I really need to go now since it's daddy/son day today and we are going to do fun stuff all day and go places). Brb in a few hours.

Ugh. I had the impression I forgot something... and I did.

unvote dedoporno

This is not going anywhere. Anyway, good night now folks. I really need to sleep.

While everyone is discussing in the main hall, one person does not participate. When you notice, you go check on drealmer and find him in the dining room, sitting slumped on a chair with his head on the table, peacefully snoring. Other than sleeping he is alive and well, but some prankster has painted a big, red crosshair on his back. Whatever that may mean.


drealmer, your last post shows the infamous '2 days ago'. consider yourself prodded!

On mobile, so unfancy reply.

1) if you were posting 6 hours ago, I was in bed because it was midnight.
2) Dedo has expressed the reason for my next action well: Leonard is too close to lynch for me to leave my vote on him when he isn't what I'm looking for. While he was the tool to apply it, my pressure wasn't for him.
3) I'll be busy and mostly unavailable most of today; need to take a family member to a doc appt and it is a 2 hour drive to get to where they live.

4) Unvote Leonard

5) I want to ask about British "role" versus American "roll", and why Hijack has "contempt" for a vote he apparently is "content" with.

*Don't bait Ix, don't bait Ix, don't bait Ix...*

I started the Day being suspicious of adalia and Leonard for their play at the end of day one. Adalia stood out to me more than Leonard. Adalia reminded me of his play in RW’s game – scum reluctant about bussing one of his buddies. If he’s scum, he didn’t play it the same this time (hammered vs avoiding the wagon), but the impression felt the same.

Throughout the Day, nothing has changed that impression. Drealmer’s push for adalia’s lynch raised my eyebrow, but that seems to be how he plays. Yogs started pushing as well. Nothing out of the ordinary there. Adalis’s arguments continue to remind me of his play as scum.

Leonard also continues to look suspicious. In the last many hours, Leonard’s wagon went from 1 vote to L-2. A little too fast, perhaps.

Leonard did mention something that rings true to me:
Based on the reports from N1, I see two scum factions as a possibility, but no more so than other games. Given the amount of discussion and speculation surrounding what would typically be, “just another theory”, it seems like personal knowledge must be driving some of this.

I agree with this (the adalia part, not the not-caring-what-you-think part) ;-)
-for the reasons you stated earlier about the block

However, I don’t agree that Leonard’s wagon will be a bust. If Leonard flips town, I expect we’ll find scum in the speedy wagon.

If all things were equal, I would vote for adalia. He is the most suspicious in my estimation. Leonard is number 2 on my scum list, so I am OK with a vote:
Vote Leonard

On a personal note, I severely overestimated the amount of time I would have this week for the game. I apologize for that.

[pre-post edit]
Refreshed and saw Bookwyrm’s unvote. Soooo…you wanted to apply pressure but not on Leonard…what a convenient excuse for ditching a buddy’s wagon if you are scum…
I got to go. Need to come back this, I’m OK with my vote but Bookwyrm warrants a closer look now

Well fuck. I thought I still had time for some reason. I just haven't had time to post more than this. It's been some really hard times lately. I still have pages to catch up on and not even time to do that. I'm really sorry. I will try to be more active today but I just don't know if I can be.