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Darvond: Would it be fair or unfair to compare D&D as the Monopoly (board game) of Pen & Paper systems?

Or am I off base here?
I think the bigger similarity here is that most people don't play Monopoly to play Monopoly, it's more of a cultural phenomenon that facilitates a particular social experience. The same is true for tabletop D&D, most people don't play it for its game mechanics or framework but for a very specific social experience (roleplay and collaborative narrative building).

The game mechanics and rules are only there to facilitate said experience, which is why TTRPG groups often gloss over or house rule them to better fit what they're trying to do, or why it's possible (while not ideal) to switch from one game system to another mid-campaign without changing much of anything vital.

At the end of the day it's really less of a 'game' in the traditional sense.
Post edited January 18, 2023 by erephine
WoTC will be posting a revised OGL draft on or before Friday.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1428-a-working-conversation-about-the-open-game-license
Post edited January 18, 2023 by Grargar
I can't wait to cosplay as an Elf then be thrown in prison because the new OGL. I'm kidding but given how broadly this thing is written it's absurd., I could see these doing it for a Drow.
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Grargar: WoTC will be posting a revised OGL draft on or before Friday.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1428-a-working-conversation-about-the-open-game-license
Should we care? The important bit was that WotC think they can deauthorize the license DMs and players accepted and used to incorporate WotC's IP into the DMs' and players' own creations, and then WotC say "you still own your stuff" without acknowledging that it's laced with WotC's poison pills. The wording of the new license doesn't matter.
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Grargar: WoTC will be posting a revised OGL draft on or before Friday.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1428-a-working-conversation-about-the-open-game-license
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octalot: Should we care? The important bit was that WotC think they can deauthorize the license DMs and players accepted and used to incorporate WotC's IP into the DMs' and players' own creations, and then WotC say "you still own your stuff" without acknowledging that it's laced with WotC's poison pills. The wording of the new license doesn't matter.
Speculation and contingencies are very important, but IMO before determining a specific course of action one really needs to read the actual document.
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kai2: Speculation and contingencies are very important, but IMO before determining a specific course of action one really needs to read the actual document.
People should be hesitant to trust any document they release unless it contains the words 'irrevocable' and 'perpetual'. Clearly one out of two wasn't good enough.

Even then, it's generally not a good idea to rely on a company that has displayed this level of hostility towards creators.
Post edited January 19, 2023 by erephine
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kai2: Speculation and contingencies are very important, but IMO before determining a specific course of action one really needs to read the actual document.
There's no speculation in what I said, these are events that have already happened. DMs' and players' existing own creations are laced with WotC's IP, which we found out are poison pills when WotC claimed that they can deauthorize the OGL 1.0(a).

A future statement by WotC or a more likely a court may turn the poison pills back into useable IP, but that is speculation.
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kai2: Speculation and contingencies are very important, but IMO before determining a specific course of action one really needs to read the actual document.
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octalot: There's no speculation in what I said, these are events that have already happened. DMs' and players' existing own creations are laced with WotC's IP, which we found out are poison pills when WotC claimed that they can deauthorize the OGL 1.0(a).

A future statement by WotC or a more likely a court may turn the poison pills back into useable IP, but that is speculation.
Without the actual released document, all is speculation. You are free to speculate based on a leaked WotC document, but that is not actionable in any legal sense. Why? Because it's not "real"... and therefore legal. That becomes the case only once an actual document is released by WotC.

You cannot legally hold a party responsible for something they might do... or... something you believe they are going to do -- no matter how much evidence you believe points in the direction of their ultimate "guilt." You can only hold them legally responsible for something they actually do... after they have done it.

With that said...

... again...

... it is highly unlikely that WotC has the legal ability to change the OGL, but they certainly are pushing hard for players and creators to sign a new document and give away their rights. IMO it sounds like WotC can't unilaterally change the contract, but there is nothing stopping a player or creator from signing away their rights. Think of it like...

... a vampire.

A vampire cannot enter you home. It has to stop at the threshold. Those are the rules for vampires. But...

... if you invite a vampire in...

(you know the rest of the story)
Post edited January 19, 2023 by kai2
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kai2: You cannot legally hold a party responsible for something they might do... or... something you believe they are going to do
However, you can take some precautions to protect yourself. For example, ensuring any new content that you create doesn't include WotC's IP.
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kai2: You cannot legally hold a party responsible for something they might do... or... something you believe they are going to do
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octalot: However, you can take some precautions to protect yourself. For example, ensuring any new content that you create doesn't include WotC's IP.
Thing is, many older JRPGs contain enemies that use names that WotC has claimed. In fact, the game I'm playing right now has a Beholder (though it doesn't look anything like the D&D one), and Final Fantasy 1, 4, and 5 have Mind Flayers.
WotC has released OGL 1.2

It's pretty ridiculous. They are using the potential of "hate speech" as a mechanism to take rights away from players and creators.

Where have I heard this before?

Using this fantasy (the TTRPG hobby is already one of the most inclusive and least tolerant of to hate!) to virtue signal as you hammer fans into oblivion (for money) is the work of a true corporate supervillain

I can only imagine what WotC will call D&D fans who refuse to accept the new OGL...? *sigh* This strategy has become very, very old.

I'd suggest any TTRPG fan move on from WotC's D&D.
After the feedback to the OGL 1.2 draft WotC has decided to completely scrap its plans to change the OGL. The OGL will remain unchanged.

On top of that, the System Reference Document (which is part of of the published rules) will be put under a CC license.

Source
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Geralt_of_Rivia: After the feedback to the OGL 1.2 draft WotC has decided to completely scrap its plans to change the OGL. The OGL will remain unchanged.
I've seen this going over, and undoubtedly would be good news. But seeing WotC has already shot themselves in the foot, and i'm not 100% convinced they aren't going to only put the basic rules in the CC and shove OGL 1.1/1.2 down their 5e version anyways and hope no one notices.

Like how console giants; Microsoft shoved always-online-DRM and no second hand market, Nintendo pushed the Wii/WiiU removing their older userbase on gimmicks, and Sony were full of themselves with the PS3 and hardware no one could program; I wouldn't be surprised if their sales dry up for 10 years before picking up again, and by that point they will have many other larger competitors than they do now.


To quote a well known sage: Forgiveness is Divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.
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Geralt_of_Rivia: After the feedback to the OGL 1.2 draft WotC has decided to completely scrap its plans to change the OGL. The OGL will remain unchanged.

On top of that, the System Reference Document (which is part of of the published rules) will be put under a CC license.

Source
They got such overwhelmingly negative feedback from the community that they backed down (for now)... especially after the mass exodus from D&D Beyond and growing calls for boycotts of both Baldur's Gate 3 and the upcoming D&D movie.

(and I still feel much of this was a bluff by WotC... that they were never willing to take this to court because there was a high probability they would lose)

But from the videos I watched the last couple of days...

... I think the die has been cast.

I spoke with a game developer who has used the OGL exclusively for their content and they claimed that they won't "take a chance" and use that system in the future.

IMHO WotC showed its true colors and would have to restructure the company to make many creators feel comfortable.

What a mess.

I think this whole scenario should be a learning moment for like businesses.
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kai2: IMHO WotC showed its true colors and would have to restructure the company to make many creators feel comfortable.
You know, I got the impression that WotC was always trying to be quite protective of their IP.. which is the kind of corporate behavior that I figured isn't good to base community focused games such as tabletop D&D on. So I always had this uneasy feeling, that corporations shouldn't own a hobby and control its world throuh licensing, and really just hoped people would eventually go on ahead and make their own rulebooks, lore, character designs, etcetra. In an open-source, community driven fashion.

And I thought it'd only be a matter of time until WotC take their corporate vampirism to the next level and try to squeeze anyone who's bought into the D&D ecosystem. That corporations try to do that when they get the chance is pretty much law of nature at this point.

This is a big part of why I never started playing tabletop dnd even though I had a bunch of friends (and now a family member) who do. Same reason why I don't play MTG, even though I would probably like it (long ago I had a demo of a computer MTG game and it seemed like a ton of fun). Feels like I made the right call. No money to WotC from me. Similar concerns are also putting me off from even looking at Gwent. It's better if I don't even know what I'm missing out on, because I refuse to play it on CDPR's terms.

I don't really need corps to show their true colors, they're so predictable.
Post edited January 28, 2023 by clarry