When you start to play a new cRPG game where the first obstacle is to create your character or party (by sharing skill points etc.), how do you usually start it? For instance:

1. Do you just blindly assign numbers however you feel, thinking what seems to make sense even though you have no clear idea how they affect different things and what would be logical? Like I recall some saying how they make almost random characters in Fallout to get a totally new gaming experience, when they e.g. have a low intelligence character that doesn't understand conversations?

2. Do you use hours reading a manual, learning what the different skills are and what they affect, and then carefully try to figure out what kind of character would possibly make sense?

3. Do you just head to www.gamefaqs.com to read some ready-made character creation guide that clearly tells you what kind of character or party you should probably create, to get the maximum enjoyment out of the game?

Or something else?

I have to say I tend to gravitate to #3, and in a way I feel that is unfortunate. I just started playing e.g. Planescape Torment, and at first I just hopped in with the mindset of #1, just putting some points to strength, some to dexterity, some to wisdom, some to intelligence... In the end I ended up putting them pretty evenly because I was not sure what would make sense. I wanted to be able to fight but also cast some spells because I felt just fighting would be pretty boring.

But then I realized that I don't even know what kind of party members I will acquire later in the game. If I e.g. try to be a kickass fighter, maybe a couple of joined party members will fit that role much better than me, and I should have been a mage instead?

So in the end I broke down, headed to gamefaqs.com, and read two FAQs about tips to create a PS:T character to get the highest amount of enjoyment from the game. Hints I learned from them:

- Don't try to become a rogue/thief (e.g. high dexterity). It just doesn't serve any real purpose in this game to become one.

- This game is so dialogue heavy that you should invest most of your points to high wisdom, and also intelligence. Just so that you get more options in dialogue, and can talk your way out rather than fight your way out. This game apparently just is much more enjoyable with a high WIS/INT character, than a strong but dumb protagonist.

- Because you do that (high INT/WIS), it may make more sense to become a mage anyway, rather than e.g. a fighter.

So there you have it. I wouldn't have know any of that without reading those FAQs. So I ended up with a character that has WIS 18, INT 17, CHR 13, STR/DEX/CON = 9. And he will be a mage, most probably.

This same happened to me also in Fallout. I first started it with a self-made character that somehow seemed sensible, but then I read some Fallout character creation guide and created it from the scratch, as it pointed out some quite important things that you just can't know without playing the game first extensively. Like, high Luck could be pretty important because with it you raise your chances of finding the downed alien flying saucer, which, in turn, gives you possibly the most powerful (alien) weapon in the game.

If I hadn't read that, I would have thought Luck is not that important trait in Fallout.

So in essence, I wouldn't want to have to, but I feel I am obliged to read some other people's character creation guides for RPGs, in order to get the maximum enjoyment of the games with a single playthrough. I don't want to end up in a situation that halfway into the game, it strikes me I really should have created a completely different kind of character.

Another thing that annoys me in some CRPGs is that while they have some premade characters or parties, usually they are quite unoptimal, like their mages or fighters having skill points in areas which make no sense to that particular profession, or having an non-optimal race for the profession (like an elf fighter or whatever)... Seems counterproductive, so you really need to create your own party from a clean table. I seem to recall thinking this way in e.g. Icewind Dale 2. none of the ready-made parties really seemed to make much of sense to me.

Games are supposed to be fun. If you're getting annoyed, you're doing wrong.

I understand. I've played physical paper and dice games for years, and sometimes I get frustrated with the DM's obvious stupidity. But ultimately, it's a game and if you're not having fun, do something else that's more fun.

I tend to choose the middle ground, the most balanced build. And see where that can take me.
I usually go in a game with as little knowledge as possible, I like to be surprised (or outraged), I want to discover what the game has to offer at my own pace (if possible).
In a second or third playthrough I might look at stats/numbers differently, with a particular build in mind. Then again, I might not go for a specific build and assign them at random. It's fun that way.
Did you know you can go after a "bunny hunter" in Fallout:New Vegas?
Haha.

I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, I am having fun playing e.g. CRPGs, but not necessarily when feeling an urge to restart the whole game because I made a character or party that makes no sense for that particular game. I guess it doesn't matter if one is ready to replay the same game several times, learning from their mistakes from the first playthrough, but unless it is an exceptionally good RPG, I'd rather get the enjoyment from the first and only playthrough (which apparently can't be obtained from e.g. Planescape: Torment by playing a dumb, low WIS/INT character, because the game is dialogue-heavy).

So, thanks for your contribution I guess, but...

I guess that is the main point. If one is ready to replay the same RPG several times, then it probably makes sense to first play "blind", and then for subsequent playthroughs, learn from your earlier mistakes.

Unfortunately, being as big and long as RPGs tend to be, and me having so many yet to play, I'd rather try to avoid making my first (and probably only) play a test-run, so to speak.

I guess it would help if RPGs were more designed so that you can revert and change your "bad decisions" in the beginning later in the game, without much of penalty, but that doesn't usually seem to be the case. You have to make important decisions in the beginning of the game, without knowing how much they make sense in that particular game.

Then of course there are the RPGs where you don't get much freedom in the beginning anyways, like I think many JRPGs are like. I don't recall I would have had to decide what kind of character Cloud is in the beginning of Final Fantasy 7... (This is why I restricted this discussion particularly to CRPGs, not JRPGs.)

I kinda liked being able to create my own party from a clean table in Icewind Dale 1 and 2, but damn it took a long time especially in IWD2, learning what kind of characters would make sense in a party. I guess that was part of the charm, as long as you knew what to do. Too bad the ready-made IWD2 parties seemed so poorly made that it made much more sense to make your own party from a scratch. Sorry, I've yet to play even Fallout 3. :) I finished Fallout 1-2 and Tactics a couple of years ago, and I've been meaning to proceed to Fallout 3 and New Vegas at some point.

I understand, you are looking for an all-around solid experience in one playthrough. I have been thinking about that, especially these past years, but I always end up in the same spot: if I learn about the game, about what to do/not do before actually playing, it takes a lot from the overall enjoyment and feeling of discovery.
I guess RPGs try to emulate real life to a certain degree. Sometimes you get to make decisions that prove to be not so great down the line, but you have to live with them and the consequences.There is perseverence in that, in overcoming obstacles and hardship. I suppose you can apply that to games as well, to an extent. Imagine a life without mistakes, always knowing what to do and when to do it...
Maybe there is something to learn here, perhaps developers try to send a message... Or maybe not?

I hope you will get to enjoy New Vegas. Fantastic game from a great, dedicated team. To this day I find it hard to replicate the experience or even get close to it.

Don't play a lot of CRPGs (recently Jade Empire), but if I do:

1. Balanced with more points going into mind or intellectual since mages are usually easier to play. But if physical is vastly superior or easier to play, that's what I'll resort to.

3. I use a guide to avoid wasting time with experimentation. Maybe if I was a kid and didn't have a huge backlog, I'd be doing blind and multiple playthroughs to have fun with experimentation. But I've got a lot of other things to enjoy.

If the game is well designed, there will be:

- Good tutorials to explain the significance of your stats
- NPCs who leave hints about what to prioritize (foreshadowing)
- Better integration of your stats by allowing multiple solutions to overcome obstacles
- Enough leveling opportunities to experiment with different builds (e.g., max levels allow you to max out a comfortable variety of skills or beating the main story gives you access to a stat and skill resetter mechanic to allow you to change classes or redistirbute stats with little or no penalty without replaying the game)

In most of my limited CRPG experience, there aren't a lot of incentives to chase hybrid or balanced builds compare to specialized builds.

I strongly lean toward #2, looking up what skills exist and what they do, then I try to come up with builds that are both functional and mechanically interesting. (Sometimes I'll choose a more mechanically interesting build over something more powerful.)

Or, for some games I might do #4: Using the game's cheat mode to try out different builds and abilities, looking for those that behave in interesting ways. (For example, seeing whether, and how, different skills interact.)

I agree that it would be better if RPGs were designed to allow the fixing of mistakes. That's actually one of the main issues I have with the skill point system that's become common (and one reason why Dragon Quest 8 might be my least favorite game in that series), and why I prefer systems like those found in Final Fantasy 5 (the game's skill point equivalent is gained after battle rather than at level up) or your typical SaGa game (no levels, but a low stat/skill is easier to increase than a high one in most of the games).

JRPGs *are* CRPGs, even if they do have different design decisions. (In particular, Dragon Quest 8 is affected by those same issues.)

Final Fantasy 7, though, is a bit different from the other games you mention because you don't really build characters into a role, but rather your powers come from materia, which has properties very unlike something like a skill point system:
* You equip materia on the character's weapon and armor (there's only one armor slot). Each one provides the character with some ability, or has a passive effect of some sort.
* Materia gains AP when equipped. This means that the materia you keep equipped will gain more powerful abilities. (For example, Restore initially only lets you cast Cure, but leave it equipped a while, and it will learn Cure 2, allowing you to cast it when equipped with that materia.) AP is gained after battle, and is only affected by the enemies you're fighting; being a high level does not make it harder to gain AP (unlike with skill points gained at level up).
* Outside of battle, materia can be easily unequipped, replaced with different materia, or even given to somebody else. This means you can easily change a character's setup, and also means that, once your Restore materia has learned Cure 2, you can give it to somebody else, and that character will cast the spell immediately.

In other words, abilities aren't permanently attached to characters here, so it doesn't make sense to talk about a long-term build for a character.

Final Fantasy 8's system has similar properties, though a major component of your stats come from easily transferable abilities. (Just note that the game is not well balanced (it's too easy to break it), and that this game has enemy level scaling despite being a linear RPG.)

(Meanwhile, Final Fantasy 4 and 9, especially 4, give characters very specific roles; essentially, every one has a fixed build, and you don't get to customize such characters at all.) Or, alternatively, if the game is short (SaGa 1 comes to mind; it's a shame there's so few sub-10 hour RPGs with high replayability out there). Or, allow the player to respec without first beating the game, or stop tying skill points to limited level ups. That's one issue with skill point systems in general, I've found.

Dungeons and Dragons was actually better about this in 2e and earlier than in 3.x (and I get the impression that 5e is like 3.x in this regard). You had to multi-class at the start, but you'd only be a level behind a single-class character, rather than being half the level, so you actually could still be decent at both roles.

Final Fantasy 5's Job/Ability system has this neat mechanic where some abilities provide a stat from the job it's learned in, and also has a lot of interesting combinations. For example, there's an ability from the Knight job that allows a character to wield a weapon with two hands for extra damage, and also gives the character a decent Strength stat; with that ability, a White Mage wielding a Morning Star can actually do decent physical damage for that part in the game. (Or you could have a Blue Mage, who can equip swords but has low strength, deal decent physical damage this way, not to mention there's one spell (Goblin Punch) which uses a version of the phyiscal damage formula.)

Usually option 3 - gameFAQs or other online source. I don't have the time to waste by creating a character that can't get through the game enjoyable because the developer hasn't play tested their game properly (or left glaring errors in it). RPGs are generally too much of a time sink for me to play more than once.

I have to admit, I also thought this would be a dtgreen thread when I clicked on the title!

Simple answer is, there is no one right way. I sometimes do some back reading on classes before playing a game, sometimes not, if I go back and play again maybe then I will read powergaming advice. Each game tends to be different, even if you know the systems. What annoys me a bit is when they do not give enough information to define the path they designed around, or mislead you.
Baldurs gate is a good example, if you ignore the low level is for fighters, high level for mages system issues, then the first BG games becomes really hard and painful if you don’t choose fighter. That same character moving into 2 would slowly become less and less useful. You could create a new char for 2, but you need to know where you are going in terms higher levels. Party based can offset this somewhat as you spread things about.
What would be useful is if all RPG games came with one or two prebuilt chars/parties which have a good chance and can be learnt from,

Mostly a mix of method 2 and DtGreene's Method 4.

(But secretly, I prefer games where I don't have to distribute points out; I'd prefer to weigh stat gains by bonuses and class choices.)

I spend about 2x times of actual playthrough for studying all possible manuals, guides, hints and discussion boards to make perfect character/party which'll satisfy my gameplay needs and allow to squeeze out most of the game in single playthrough.

Funny thing is: I kinda like character planning a lot. I always enjoy spending my time learning about classes and possible upgrade paths and then coming up with a decent sounding combos. But I really hate making characters blind without knowing anything about the game mechanics.