Pax11: I have to disagree with you on this one, as someone who is indeed "ex-gay." You cannot simply post a survey from an "Ex-Gay Survivor's" webpage and act like that is the be-all and end-all to the many convolutions. ... snip
Brasas: Both sides in this topic are hugely guilty of cherry picking - or properly stated, of confirmation bias. Studies based on selection bias, are suspect for obvious reasons to anyone that knows anything about scientific methodology: non representative samples.
Of course, your own experience is not universal proof, it just disproves the opposite generalization - falsifies would be the term used in epistemology.
The fundamental problem at the meta level goes back to the word class, and how it relates with classy behavior. Most of the individuals in the opposing groups are purposefully choosing to throw away "classy" in order to reinforce how distinct their class is from the others.
Is anyone actually interested in going back to that cooler level of discussion? Or are we too much into the entropic descent towards the object level arguments?
Edit: typo
I wholeheartedly agree with you. But I never stated or even implied my experience was or should be considered universal. Everyone who hears my story somehow goes down that road, but I never have. My life doesn't mean everyone can change; it doesn't mean everyone should or has to. I was simply replying to, as you called it, the opposite generalization. And the post I replied to did state an opposite generalization.
I'm not intent on arguing about this ad nauseum. I was simply presenting a different experience. Folks can have at the rest of it. I'm comfortable in my life and that is all that I was trying to convey. I do tire of the "no one can change this" mantra, and wanted to give a different perspective, is all.
Pax
dtgreene: First of all, age should not be a consideration when determining whether to respect someone's identity; this applies to both sexual orientation and gender identity (as well as other aspects like religion).
Second, ex-gay *does not work*. See
http://www.beyondexgay.com/survey/results/q1.html Also, if you're gay, getting into a straight relationship is not going to end well. For example, consider Tchaikovsky, who separated from his wife only six months after the marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonina_Miliukova Gnostic: Why age does not count?
If age does not count then 5 year old kids can drink alcohol, smoke, watch prom, drive, have consensual sex with a 50 year old and the police should not jail the 50 year old.
And you are saying no gay ever regret their sexual orientation and change back? All straight can only be gay and not otherwise or even hetero. No one ever got tired and want to change back?
Of course a gay may not end well with a straight relationship. But what that is going to do with gay who regretted their sexual orientation?
Do you want to dismiss the minority of LGBT who regretted their sexual orientation while campaigning that the LGBT should not be dismissed just because they are the minority? Also, we do not know the actual numbers of LGBT who regretted it is really the minority. Now sure how many people would publicly say it like Pax11.
If adults would regret it, children who have immature world view would fluctuate even more.
Of course extremist conversion efforts are silly, but there are a number of LGBT who would go back. The ideal case would be these people change back their sexual orientation naturally. Or seek help in conversion program not tied to RELIGION and have actual scientific and physiology grounds.
If you want my support to abolish extremist conversion efforts, you have it.
If you want my support to lock down every kid with the slightest fantasy they are the opposite sex to be forever the opposite sex. NO
If you want my support to abolish reasonable conversion efforts. NO
I do want to point out, just for the record, I went through no conversion therapy (extreme or otherwise) and I think it's ridiculous to put anyone through that.
That's all!
Pax
