Wishbone: I'm kind of a weird aberration when it comes to "handedness". I'm left-handed, but there are a lot of things I do like right-handed people. Nobody ever forced me to, that's just how it works best for me.

Things I do left-handed:
Write
Play badminton
Play softball (catch with right hand, throw with left)
Strength (my left hand/arm is stronger than my right)
Masturbate (well, why deny it)
Some tools (saws and hammers, left only. Wrenches and screwdrivers I can use with either hand)

Things I do right-handed:
Mouse+keyboard
Knife and fork
Play the guitar

I don't understand how right-handed people can play right-handed guitar. Or other left-handed people play left-handed guitar. When learning to play the guitar, by far the hardest part, and the one requiring the most strength, coordination and dexterity in the fingers, is working the fretboard. I naturally want to use the one of my hands with the most strength, coordination and dexterity for that, which is naturally the left one, since I am left-handed. Why most people do it the other way around is beyond me. I'm not alone in this either. I've met right-handed people who played the guitar left-handed for the exact same reason.

hedwards: ...

hedwards: But, I own a motorcycle, I was supposed to die before I grew old.

Also, those damn kids are always on my lawn. Don't they realize how expensive that hydroseed stuff is?

Emob78: I have no problem with occasionally turning on snobby condescension mode, but if you do, please have spellchecker on. Makes things so much more consistent. No one likes a backseat driver who has had his license revoked.

Wishbone: I'm kind of a weird aberration when it comes to "handedness". I'm left-handed, but there are a lot of things I do like right-handed people. Nobody ever forced me to, that's just how it works best for me.

Things I do left-handed:
Write
Play badminton
Play softball (catch with right hand, throw with left)
Strength (my left hand/arm is stronger than my right)
Masturbate (well, why deny it)
Some tools (saws and hammers, left only. Wrenches and screwdrivers I can use with either hand)

Things I do right-handed:
Mouse+keyboard
Knife and fork
Play the guitar

I don't understand how right-handed people can play right-handed guitar. Or other left-handed people play left-handed guitar. When learning to play the guitar, by far the hardest part, and the one requiring the most strength, coordination and dexterity in the fingers, is working the fretboard. I naturally want to use the one of my hands with the most strength, coordination and dexterity for that, which is naturally the left one, since I am left-handed. Why most people do it the other way around is beyond me. I'm not alone in this either. I've met right-handed people who played the guitar left-handed for the exact same reason.

Brasas: Both sides in this topic are hugely guilty of cherry picking - or properly stated, of confirmation bias. Studies based on selection bias, are suspect for obvious reasons to anyone that knows anything about scientific methodology: non representative samples.

Of course, your own experience is not universal proof, it just disproves the opposite generalization - falsifies would be the term used in epistemology.

The fundamental problem at the meta level goes back to the word class, and how it relates with classy behavior. Most of the individuals in the opposing groups are purposefully choosing to throw away "classy" in order to reinforce how distinct their class is from the others.

Is anyone actually interested in going back to that cooler level of discussion? Or are we too much into the entropic descent towards the object level arguments?

Edit: typo

Gnostic: Why age does not count?

If age does not count then 5 year old kids can drink alcohol, smoke, watch prom, drive, have consensual sex with a 50 year old and the police should not jail the 50 year old.

And you are saying no gay ever regret their sexual orientation and change back? All straight can only be gay and not otherwise or even hetero. No one ever got tired and want to change back?

Of course a gay may not end well with a straight relationship. But what that is going to do with gay who regretted their sexual orientation?

Do you want to dismiss the minority of LGBT who regretted their sexual orientation while campaigning that the LGBT should not be dismissed just because they are the minority? Also, we do not know the actual numbers of LGBT who regretted it is really the minority. Now sure how many people would publicly say it like Pax11.

If adults would regret it, children who have immature world view would fluctuate even more.
Of course extremist conversion efforts are silly, but there are a number of LGBT who would go back. The ideal case would be these people change back their sexual orientation naturally. Or seek help in conversion program not tied to RELIGION and have actual scientific and physiology grounds.

If you want my support to abolish extremist conversion efforts, you have it.
If you want my support to lock down every kid with the slightest fantasy they are the opposite sex to be forever the opposite sex. NO
If you want my support to abolish reasonable conversion efforts. NO

Pax11: I wholeheartedly agree with you. But I never stated or even implied my experience was or should be considered universal. Everyone who hears my story somehow goes down that road, but I never have. My life doesn't mean everyone can change; it doesn't mean everyone should or has to. I was simply replying to, as you called it, the opposite generalization. And the post I replied to did state an opposite generalization.

RWarehall: The only thing I'll add in respect to therapy, I question the value of any therapy when the subject doesn't want that change. It's a different thing to have a person who wants to change and needs help and forcing someone unwillingly to go through it. I doubt the latter would have good success rates.

dtgreene: I think there are actually two different topics here:

1. Can sexual orientation change?
2. Can anyone change her sexual orientation?

These are two different questions, and I believe the answers are not the same. In other words, sexual orientation can change (though I believe that isn't that common), but it can't be changed, if you know what I mean.

hedwards: The problem is that a lot of people do want that change. Now, the reasons for that may not be great, but there are a lot of very lonely gay men out there that don't fit in because they're going to hell.

Pax11: snip

Brasas: Thanks Pax, and sorry if you thought I was implying you were attributing universality. I understood you were specifically falsifying the other generalization of immutability, not trying to make your experience into the universal one.

I actually think your experience IS closer to the universal truth, that all humans have a fluid sexuality, some more fluid than others, and the initial point where the sexuality points to on the imaginary axis is pretty much arbitrary as far as I'm concerned.

I mean, generic sexuality is one thing, but love and attraction for specific individuals is what really matters and sometimes it breaks away from the preferences one believes to have. :) We humans are really interesting animals aren't we? ;)

Pax11: I do want to point out, just for the record, I went through no conversion therapy (extreme or otherwise) and I think it's ridiculous to put anyone through that.

That's all!

Pax