Put words in my mouth than attack the strawman. Typical of you social justice idiots. You can't accept that all this talk of suicide has actually given some people the idea to kill themselves? Telika, you and your ilk are responsible for this tragedy. Who else gave Leelah the idea that "adding to the deathcount" might promote the problem...

I see you show your own contempt for any of the Christian religion, and contempt for those who are straight and your contempt for those who are white. Telika, there isn't a bigger bigot on GoG than YOU! How many different groups of people do you hate!

There are tons of gay and trans people that go through their everyday lives not committing suicide, not feeling oppressed, and generally living healthy normal lives. We're not talking about those people. We're talking about the emotionally disturbed genderfluid hyper-activist types that have to be offended at everything and are emotionally unstable and sometimes outright disturbed.

For anyone who can't live their lives in a healthy way, follow their own dreams, or adjust to demands that may be put on them by parents, teachers, or employers... yes, those people are disturbed and/or mentally ill. Safe spaces have become code for 'everyone must think and act like I do or I'll stomp my feet and sue the ever loving shit out of everyone.' And many shits were not given.

Essentially what the other side is saying is that all gay and trans people are the normies and they're just being oppressed from succeeding in life by the evil cis male patriarchy. That thinking is illogical, paranoid, and downright false. It's a prefabricated rebellion based on first world conditions and lacking in any substance or purpose... in fact, it's an attempt to flush the first world even faster than its current trajectory.

Yup sure. Problem resolved. Congratulations.
"The" normies, heh ? You REALLY need that, do you.

They are not THE normies. They are normies, full stop. And yes, dipshits that define it as an insane capricious transgression of some holy pseudo-natural order are creating the shitty oppressive climate without which this wouldn't even be an issue worth talking about.

And each time we've been okay with homophobic, transphobic or ordinary racist discourses, we've contributed to this.

The real problem is you can't even have a decent discussion with these activists.

If you suggest that its ridiculously costly to add a third set of bathrooms to every public place and business, they'll call you an uncaring asshole and bigot.

If you suggest that the dividing line for trans and men's/women's bathrooms should be whether one has the proper "tools". Same thing because trans people "deserve" the choice.

It's not like men and women get their "choice". Nope, these "special flowers" need far more rights than anyone else. If there are any limits, they are "oppressed".

Obviously you just like to troll the forums and put in your two cents whenever you think you can call someone a bigot.
Otherwise you would know that "bathrooms" were a significant part of this conversation.
Since you are not aware of this, it seems you are just trolling again...

May I actually suggest you read the previous posts in a thread before spewing out your hate speech? Not that you care if your comments are totally out of context....

It's a large part of the conversation, it is not a large part of the issue. But focusing on it is just as handy as the whole "oh noes the lefties told the trans that they should be entitled to have a life and now they believe it and see the consequences lol evil lefties" argument. Both dismiss the social scale issue, the first one by focusing on a cheesy sounding aspect, the second by demanding the issue to be invisibilized.

Again, as ever, what is behind this is the background intention. Conservative normalization for its own sake. From that on, the pretend discussion is a joke.

Its always funny to hear that social justice activists like yourself can read everyone else's minds. I mean, clearly you know exactly what I intended.

Of course its a pretend discussion, because you really have no intention of even trying to discuss the real issues. Because if anyone brings up anything you dislike, your answer is they are bigots...pretty much a conversation stopper there...or the classic, since you are a cis-white male, you can't possibly understand, so you aren't entitled to comment...

If you can't see why this whole current push that "something has to be done because so many trans people are committing suicide", without any mention that if you are trans (or even non-trans) and are considering such, you ought to seek help....if you can't see how that can be a problem...if you can't see how one of the most prominent recent trans deaths, by releasing the suicide note and putting it all over the Internet...how this might encourage others to pursue the same sad path...then I can't help you.

Yeah. It's also super cute how this argument fits with the "trans have just a personal individual psy issue and stop asking society to take them into account" posture, how it fits with the "we are talking too openly about this pretend transphobia issue, stop criticizing my society" argument, and how it echoes the "why are you even mentionning transphobic murders anyway" reactions.

And it's lovely how all of these bathe in the old discourses about binary biological "genders", in the old sarcasms about queer self-identifications, about funny-sounding revendications, and about evil progressive trends taking impractical minorities way too much in account.

No system there, no pattern at all. Each sentence comes in a vacuum, just like racist assaults have NOTHING to do with political xenophobic discourses, just like homosexual suicides have nothing to do with collective representatiuons, etc. Hey, you know what, it was just a passing sarcasm there. Where does the whole "you sjw" thingy comes from i wonder i wonder. We're only dots, here, no lines amongst us.

Maybe if you didn't come out and complain about "cis white christian males" you wouldn't automatically fall in that camp...

Your words...you classified yourself by that statement...

Maybe if you did realise how easy it is to dismiss minority issues when you belong to the dominant majority, you'd grasp the relevancy of that statement. Failing that, you pretty much classify yourself too.

Just like failing to grasp that MAYBE the general attitude of society towards queer identities MAY be a MARGINALLY more important factor in a gay or trans teen commiting suicide than some supposed trendy coolness of it. But yeah, let's avoid this line of thinking, right.

People commit protest suicides for many causes. Military occupations, economic despair, etc. It's always futile, it's always a marginal symptom of a much wider issue that does not require it to get visibility (does it, you make me wonder actually), but still, turning the blame to these suicides themselves as their own causes, without a glance for the socio-political background that make the phenomenon emerge, is completely dishonest (what pushes people to even contemplate it, beyond your mere "they didn't have the right psy support" answer, as if the very fact that they'd need it would be their own fault). Don't let that bother you, though. Just strap those people in whatever chemical straitjacket they'd need, just kick them back strong enough into the row, and the problem will go away.

The visibility problem, mostly, but that's what matters.

I knew it, there you played the "dominant majority can't see the truth card". Same silly rhetoric.
And of course trans teen suicide is more complicated that that. Where did I say it wasn't? Oh right, you putting words in my mouth again...what because I might be "dominant majority" its impossible to see the big picture?

But maybe you should pay attention to my original point...that it might be counterproductive constantly talking about trans suicides because that publicity in itself may convince some to go through with it, like Leelah. That was the final lines of her suicide note and she stated explicitly that she was hoping that adding her death to the statistic might increase awareness. That was the end of her note. That is significant. I notice how you seem to want to "avoid" that subject...why? Because I might be right?

And frankly, I will never support youth suicide. I will never call someone brave for doing it. They are not courageous. It's a bad thing Do you not see how holding this disturbed individual as a martyr might be encouraging others to be the next martyr? How about taking responsibility for your part in this? Because some of the blame isn't just society's...whether you like it or not...

Edit: And how about a serious question...what do you think is the solution? Its easy to keep complaining, but what is a level-headed solution that works outside of a "trans vacuum"? Because jailing or killing anyone who disagrees with your "great new social concept" isn't a practical option at all...

I'm havin a thought here, Barbosa. I think what you're noticing hedwards, is a lack of culture. When I got here I noticed higher degrees of positive (edit: clarity. I mean socially motivated. accepted and even encouraged) conformity and civility. In many ways it was kind of an allegory for middle and upper class white society. You might say that makes sense given the site was a place for old PC games.

With an influx of new users and increased exposure the specific culture that may or may not have been resonating with you has become less prevalent, thus you feel the forums are going to shit. These forums are still quite civil and are host to a lot of elaborate discourse; this thread is a perfect example. It has taken a GG turn in parts and has refrained from degenerating into a giant shitstorm.

edit: I forgot to make the joke I was going to before I read the thread.

gog forums circa 2009

http://www.wbrz.com/images/news/2011-10-13/TEDKOPPEL.jpg

gog forums circa 2015

https://theworldgrowsold.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/ron-burgundy.jpg

(just to fully clear. I don't think there's a problem.)

You stay classy, GOG forums.

The problem is that the "tools" that you refer to:
1. Are not seen by others under normal circumstances (and it's rude to ask about them),
2. Might not match the rest of the person, and
3. In some intersex people, might not be clearly male or female.

Therefore, using them as the deciding factor for *anything* is nearly always a poor choice.

Should the guy pictured in the following article be forced to use the women's restroom?
http://montrealgazette.com/life/transgender-rights-buck-angel-calls-for-gender-neutral-bathrooms

I think you may be right. But I'm also realizing that the way I interpreted things was different years ago.

I think the part that really bugs me is that it was avoidable and was completely unmanaged.