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mystikmind2000: Here is my recent experience of GOG verses Steam.

1) I wanted to buy the game Dungeon Siege II
2) Check on Gog, not available.
3) Check on Steam, available, i purchase.
4) Game wont run (i checked system requirements) - ripped off by Steam
5) On the Steam game forum it is a known issue, Steam ignores the issue.
6) There is a player work around on the forum, which would be useful if i could understand WTF they are talking about!
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GameRager: Show me the workaround/tell me what system you are trying to run it on & some basic info and maybe I can help.

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MarkoH01: Use cracks like crazy without having a bad conscience at all. I PAID money and so it SHOULD be MY decision when and where I want to play my games.
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GameRager: That is my stance as well....it's good to see similar stances here. :)
This is the workaround; (frankly i think it is easier just to play something else)

Fixing the game
Dungeon Siege 2 is an old game and it cannot handle modern graphics card correctly. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.
The game was designed to run with hardware of that time and believe me or not: They have hard coded settings for each graphics card!
This leads to problems with unknown new hardware. Dungeon Siege 2 uses a fall-back configuration for those unknown devices and this results in glitches, black screen, etc.

This guide shows you how to add information about your graphics card to game. So you have a smooth running, good looking game (for a product from 2001).

The first thing you need is a code editor. If you don’t like another program on your pc you can use “notepad.exe” but I don’t recommend this.
What I do recommend is notepad++[notepad-plus-plus.org]!

Now follow the next steps to fix your game:

Open the device manager ( HOWTO[www.computerhope.com]) access the properties from your display adapter (expand it first)

Go to the Details tab and select Hardware Ids from the drop-down

Copy the first entry (use right-click) and insert it in a new text file (notepad++)
e.g.: PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_1616&SUBSYS_183D1043&REV_09

Modify the entry: 1. Remove everything except VEN_XXXXX and DEV_XXXXXX

Replace VEN_ and DEV_ with 0x
e.g.:
VEN_8086 --> 0x8086
DEV_1616 --> 0x1616

The first will be HWID1; the second will be HWID2. This is your HardwareID!

Go to the location where you have installed Dungeon Siege 2 and open system_detail.gas
with the code editor.

Use the search function (CTRL+F) to lookup the vendor of your graphics card!
Keywords: NVIDIA or ATI
This is an old game, so owner of cards from AMD have to use the keyword ATI.
AMD bought ATI much later. ;)

You should find sth. similar to this:

[vendor*]
{
vendor = "ATI";
vendor_ids = 0x1002;
....
....
}
Compare the value of vendor_ids with your HWID1: They should be identical!
If not: Change the value to your HWID1!!!

Above the first [device*] entry (in the section of your vendor), insert the following:

[device*]
{
name = "{DEVICENAME}";
device_ids = {HWID2};
b swapeffect_discard = false;
}
Replace {DEVICENAME}, {HWID2}!
{DEVICENAME} can be anything, but I recommend you to insert the devicename ;)
Example[s22.postimg.org]

Save and exit

Run DS2VideoConfig.exe as administrator

You should see your Graphics Card under “Video Driver” and “Hardware detected”

Change the Settings as you prefer (don’t select "primary display adapter" from the drop-down! Instead select one with the name of your grapics card in it)

Press OK, disable the steam overlay, run the game ;)

If you still have problem do the following:
Please install DirectX End-User Runtimes (June 2010) DOWNLOAD[www.microsoft.com]

Use the non-TnL Driver (DSVideoConfig.exe)

Check DungeonSiege2BrokenWorld.ini or without the addon installed DungeonSiege2.ini (c:\Users\...\Documents\My Games\Dungeon Siege 2 Broken World\ OR c:\Users\...\Documents\My Games\Dungeon Siege 2\): Does the “driver_description“ match with your graphics card?
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GameRager: Show me the workaround/tell me what system you are trying to run it on & some basic info and maybe I can help.

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That is my stance as well....it's good to see similar stances here. :)
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mystikmind2000: This is the workaround; (frankly i think it is easier just to play something else)
Depending on what your problem is there seems to be a much simpler fix available. You just need to start the game in windowed mode adding the parameter fullscreen=false and the screen width and height of your monitor. See here under section "issues fixed":

https://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Dungeon_Siege_II

But if it does not work I'd only need your config file and a screenshot or the hardware ids of your GPU and I would be able to edit the config file (system_detail.gas) for you.
Post edited August 27, 2019 by MarkoH01
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eric5h5: The initial release was DRM-free, apparently accidentally. (After all, if they were interested in DRM-free, I expect they'd have it on GOG.) If you buy it now, it has DRM.
No, the screenshots were from the ACTUAL release with the -EpicPortal parameter added. Just for you I just redownloaded the game and disconnected from the net. Still working. So while you do have to add the parameter or switch the DLL they changed (which I never doubted) it is absolutely NOT true that you still need an account as you will be able to play offline after doing this - which is what you said here:

"Apparently you can trick that one into running without the launcher, but it still has DRM and requires an Epic account regardless of whether the launcher runs or not."

Also many DRM-free games are not on GOG.
Post edited August 27, 2019 by MarkoH01
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GameRager: I admire you but could never be that hardline/staunch on my stance......I guess it's a combination of being a bit more lenient and a bit more weak. Either way I am glad I am or i'd likely go mad from lack of new gaming goodness.
Food for thought relevant to the topic:

The argument has been made (by you and others) that DRM-free-only gamers miss out on gaming culture by avoiding glorified rental services like Scheme and EFS.

But I see two counters to that.

1. There is a view of games "filling jobs" or "filling needs" that takes a broader view of a game's place in the market instead of looking at the specific game itself. For example, GOG does not have the GTA games. But, GOG does have the Saints Row games. GOG also has some games similar to the old top-down GTAs, like Metrocide and Retro City Rampage. Under the view of "games filling jobs," GOG is able to fill the need of "open world crime game" (by having Saints Row series). If you (not you personally, anyone) looks at it this way, suddenly GOG looks like it "covers" a LOT more of gaming culture. While there are genres I wish GOG had more games from, GOG does an impressive job with multiple types of RPG, action, horror. Not everyone holds this macro-level view of games "filling jobs" but it is an interesting way to look at things.

2. Hardliners like me don't want to give money to places like Scheme and EFS. In some cases, we wouldn't even want to give non-monetary support (such as signing up for an account, which is a direct and also an indirect endorsement of their business). However, that doesn't mean we are necessarily "blocked off" from checking out these games through things like watching a Youtube playthrough or seeing them at a friend's house. In other words, even if a hardliner decides they will not own the game for principled reasons, they could still possibly experience the game if they wanted. Additionally, some stuff is so ubiquitous in general that people will be aware of it even if they don't play it. For instance, despite never playing it, I could give a decent description of what it would be like to play Fartnite (no I haven't stopped with the names :)).
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eric5h5: The initial release was DRM-free, apparently accidentally. (After all, if they were interested in DRM-free, I expect they'd have it on GOG.) If you buy it now, it has DRM.
Can you hear that sound? It's the creaking from the goalposts as you shift them over and over.
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mystikmind2000: This is the workaround; (frankly i think it is easier just to play something else)
Thanks for posting....it seems complicated and requires using a code editor, but the simplest ones function like a notepad/etc and make it easy to do so with a bit of effort. To me this may all be daunting but if I wanted to play a game i'd make the effort....just my two cents.

(Also Post 92 has offered an alternate possible fix and even offered to fix it for you.)
Post edited August 27, 2019 by GameRager
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rjbuffchix: The argument has been made (by you and others) that DRM-free-only gamers miss out on gaming culture by avoiding glorified rental services like Scheme and EFS.

But I see two counters to that.

1. There is a view of games "filling jobs" or "filling needs" that takes a broader view of a game's place in the market instead of looking at the specific game itself. For example, GOG does not have the GTA games. But, GOG does have the Saints Row games. GOG also has some games similar to the old top-down GTAs, like Metrocide and Retro City Rampage. Under the view of "games filling jobs," GOG is able to fill the need of "open world crime game" (by having Saints Row series). If you (not you personally, anyone) looks at it this way, suddenly GOG looks like it "covers" a LOT more of gaming culture. While there are genres I wish GOG had more games from, GOG does an impressive job with multiple types of RPG, action, horror. Not everyone holds this macro-level view of games "filling jobs" but it is an interesting way to look at things.

2. Hardliners like me don't want to give money to places like Scheme and EFS. In some cases, we wouldn't even want to give non-monetary support (such as signing up for an account, which is a direct and also an indirect endorsement of their business). However, that doesn't mean we are necessarily "blocked off" from checking out these games through things like watching a Youtube playthrough or seeing them at a friend's house. In other words, even if a hardliner decides they will not own the game for principled reasons, they could still possibly experience the game if they wanted. Additionally, some stuff is so ubiquitous in general that people will be aware of it even if they don't play it. For instance, despite never playing it, I could give a decent description of what it would be like to play Fartnite (no I haven't stopped with the names :)).
1st bit: That's because you and others are missing out, and voluntarily I might add, just to uphold a moral point that in the end wins and achieves next to nothing beyond a good feeling inside.

(Also as I said: Steam isn't a rental if you buy legit and then have cracks on hand for when/if you need them...same with epic I expect. When you are more flexible those sites become much more advantageous to a consumer)

2nd bit(first counter) - You said gog "looks like"...not is...this is key and proves my point somewhat(i.e. those like myself have more access to individual games and media than people like yourself).

3rd bit(second counter) - And what does all that achieve beyond self satisfaction? In the end steam and epic will chug on and you and others will have accomplished next to nothing to affect them. Heck, social media mobs can and do accomplish more...think about that a bit.

Also let's plays are good and all but playing will always be more engrossing for many than watching.

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In the end I wonder who you are trying to convince more that your stance is a reasonable one...me/others, or yourself. :\
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GameRager: 1st bit: That's because you and others are missing out, and voluntarily I might add, just to uphold a moral point that in the end wins and achieves next to nothing beyond a good feeling inside.

(Also as I said: Steam isn't a rental if you buy legit and then have cracks on hand for when/if you need them...same with epic I expect. When you are more flexible those sites become much more advantageous to a consumer)

2nd bit(first counter) - You said gog "looks like"...not is...this is key and proves my point somewhat(i.e. those like myself have more access to individual games and media than people like yourself).

3rd bit(second counter) - And what does all that achieve beyond self satisfaction? In the end steam and epic will chug on and you and others will have accomplished next to nothing to affect them. Heck, social media mobs can and do accomplish more...think about that a bit.

Also let's plays are good and all but playing will always be more engrossing for many than watching.

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In the end I wonder who you are trying to convince more that your stance is a reasonable one...me/others, or yourself. :\
You are better than that last pithy line of your post, but I will answer it. I engage in the forum to talk to others about a shared hobby and voice myself as a consumer in said hobby. Is it the most efficient way to do so? I don't know. For me it is. I advocate things like DRM-free gaming not just for myself but for others like me who long for what we see as a better era/set of practices for PC gaming. In my view, GOG staying around long-term and remaining DRM-free is the best hope of maintaining something like that.

Why does someone sticking up for what they believe, when it differs from your view, seem to evoke such anxiety (for lack of a better word)? If we wanted to go into the random "you're trying to convince yourself" rabbithole, I would point out that your action here is similar to all the Scheme fanboys when they realize they don't actually own their library of 6000+ games so they lash out in response. Let me point out too that "self satisfaction" is a perfectly reasonable end unto itself. If that makes you feel better to just dismiss me as some rigid wacko, go ahead.

But surely you are not telling me what would satisfy me? Because it reads as suggesting I (/someone like me) would be more satisfied by doing something they find not satisfying first. I see how you also glossed over the point that some of us don't want to give ANY kind of support to DRMed stores; hence your "solution" of buying a DRMed game and then fiddling with workarounds is not viable in that sense, since it would require giving money to the DRMed store and also adding to their numbers.

Please consider stopping support of anti-consumer practices. Every game bought on Scheme, or EFS for that matter despite OP's claims, is supporting DRM infestation of gaming. YES, this even includes the games that are "DRM-free" on both, because the buyer is still effectively telling the store "I don't care about your general business practices, I just want this shiny thing so here's my money." In turn this allows the bad general business practices to keep occurring and with enough money, get even more prevalent.
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rjbuffchix: You are better than that last pithy line of your post, but I will answer it. I engage in the forum to talk to others about a shared hobby and voice myself as a consumer in said hobby. Is it the most efficient way to do so? I don't know. For me it is. I advocate things like DRM-free gaming not just for myself but for others like me who long for what we see as a better era/set of practices for PC gaming. In my view, GOG staying around long-term and remaining DRM-free is the best hope of maintaining something like that.
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Why does someone sticking up for what they believe, when it differs from your view, seem to evoke such anxiety (for lack of a better word)? If we wanted to go into the random "you're trying to convince yourself" rabbithole, I would point out that your action here is similar to all the Scheme fanboys when they realize they don't actually own their library of 6000+ games so they lash out in response. Let me point out too that "self satisfaction" is a perfectly reasonable end unto itself. If that makes you feel better to just dismiss me as some rigid wacko, go ahead.
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But surely you are not telling me what would satisfy me? Because it reads as suggesting I (/someone like me) would be more satisfied by doing something they find not satisfying first. I see how you also glossed over the point that some of us don't want to give ANY kind of support to DRMed stores; hence your "solution" of buying a DRMed game and then fiddling with workarounds is not viable in that sense, since it would require giving money to the DRMed store and also adding to their numbers.
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Please consider stopping support of anti-consumer practices. Every game bought on Scheme, or EFS for that matter despite OP's claims, is supporting DRM infestation of gaming. YES, this even includes the games that are "DRM-free" on both, because the buyer is still effectively telling the store "I don't care about your general business practices, I just want this shiny thing so here's my money." In turn this allows the bad general business practices to keep occurring and with enough money, get even more prevalent.
The last bit was just a but of pondering on my part, and I stand by it as being valid to ask. That said:

(And bear in mind this is not meant to be viewed as insults or a personal attack...just criticism of your/other people's more "hardline" stance)

1st bit: I meant why try to use silly words and names and talk here if you want change? That would be best done in the social media circles and similar(they get the most industry attention). Of course that wasn't just directed to you but to all who hold the same stance or level of stance.

(Also that doesn't mean I am saying anyone shouldn't talk about such in this or similar forums by saying such)

2nd bit: It doesn't matter if it differs from my view or not. What matters is the level of reasonableness(correct term?) in said beliefs.

I also am not so anxious/etc over it...I just wanted to express by views on your stance as you were talking with me and I wanted to express how I felt just as you express how you feel about steam/drm/etc. I do it just to criticize and prompt debate, not to be mean(if you thought that was my intent).

Also I never thought you were a wacko.....I do think you and others who hold similar stances or levels of such are a bit unreasonable, though, and I do so because it is my belief & not held just to upset anyone.

(And I also stand by self satisfaction being an end but to me a more "hollow" one)

3rd bit: And what if I was? I GENUINELY ASK to prove a point here as it seems you are taking this more personally/as if my stances are personal attacks on your character and not just a fair criticism of your/other people's such stance on the matter(which is what it is).

To me, such level of stance would be akin to not liking any system of authority and moving to a desert island and "suffering"(imo) as a result just to stand up for that belief. In the end it would be more work on one's part and give one near nothing but a good feeling. To me that is not good enough reason to keep holding ANY stance.

As for the games...I offered that example to anyone(not just you) to show how being flexible mans one has much more on offer than those who hold a similar stance, to show the positives of my stance and the negatives of one similar to the one you hold & show my point/make my case. That is all.

And as for giving money to the other stores....what if the game was free or someone gifted it to someone else?

4th bit: The thing is(and this will sound callous, but....), I don't care if it does as I can and will work around it and turn it to my advantage.

I support what I want(as do you) as long as it doesn't physically hurt anyone else, and am on a budget so I shop where the prices are decent. I don't shop to push an agenda(pro or anti drm) as some do....I let the market and those doing social media movements on either side do that sort of thing.

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(Also if everyone stopped shopping at stores that didn't care about the consumer 90% or so of all companies would fold up....most only care about money, plain and simple. You cannot stop greed permanently so why bother trying? It's like trying to fight the wind)
Post edited August 27, 2019 by GameRager
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GameRager: 1st bit: I meant why try to use silly words and names and talk here if you want change? That would be best done in the social media circles and similar(they get the most industry attention). Of course that wasn't just directed to you but to all who hold the same stance or level of stance.

(Also that doesn't mean I am saying anyone shouldn't talk about such in this or similar forums by saying such)
Well (and you might not like this answer), I don't want to pad social media's numbers any more than I want to pad DRMed stores numbers :)

The silly alternate names can hopefully plant a seed for people in a way that me just calling them by the "real" names would not. They also help keep things in perspective for me. Think of it as a way of dealing with a sad reality.

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GameRager: 2nd bit: It doesn't matter if it differs from my view or not. What matters is the level of reasonableness(correct term?) in said beliefs.
[...]
No offense taken, and I was only using wacko as like a figure of speech. Anyway, I call back to an earlier discussion of ours and maintain that on many topics, an extreme position IS the reasonable one to have and moreover to assume extreme positions are unreasonable by default, is itself unreasonable (logical fallacy).

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GameRager: (And I also stand by self satisfaction being an end but to me a more "hollow" one)
Even if a person is more satisfied by standing to their principles, than "loosening" up and being more dissatisfied as a result? What good does that experience of "culture" or "broader experience" do for them then? (Answer: None, or really more accurate, it does Negative good).

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GameRager: To me, such level of stance would be akin to not liking any system of authority and moving to a desert island and "suffering"(imo) as a result just to stand up for that belief. In the end it would be more work on one's part and give one near nothing but a good feeling. To me that is not good enough reason to keep holding ANY stance.
I do not really wish to get into political discussion but that desert island sounds wonderful to me :) Seems a flawed analogy regardless, since the desert island would provide WAY more than a good feeling in your hypothetical; it would prevent others from infringing on your liberty.

Very important, it is not about just "liking/disliking." Like/dislike are the purview of social media and Scheme/EFS fanboys who irrationally speak out against the competing store. Your hypothetical, as well as my position on DRM, are based on something more grounded in objective reality.

Either the authority is oppressing the person or it isn't. Either the DRM is present or it isn't. Either the DRM can be justified to consumers or it cannot be.

(note that DRM supporters could also try to ground arguments for their own position in reality. For example, all the corporate apologists who say it HAS to exist to prevent piracy. Though in that case I don't think their view is all that grounded in reality but at least they are trying lol).

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GameRager: And as for giving money to the other stores....what if the game was free or someone gifted it to someone else?
Still would be signing up for an account and padding their numbers (I regret doing this for EFS..you may recall I tried to get Axiom Verge DRM-free and gave up after 5 minutes of trying to fight off the client nagging). Still would be downloading it, also padding the store's numbers. Ditto for buying at deep discount..still buying, still showing support albeit in a possibly reduced way.

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GameRager: 4th bit: The thing is(and this will sound callous, but....), I don't care if it does as I can and will work around it and turn it to my advantage.
It doesn't sound callous, but it does sound like the "self satisfaction" you are accusing me and others of.

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GameRager: I support what I want(as do you) as long as it doesn't physically hurt anyone else, and am on a budget so I shop where the prices are decent. I don't shop to push an agenda(pro or anti drm) as some do....I let the market and those doing social media movements on either side do that sort of thing.
You are participating in the market!! Your actions in the market will be read by companies whether you like it or not, even if you explicitly told them not to do so! To the big companies, we are just the equivalent of statistics. In reading your actions in the market, of course the companies will try to spin your actions to represent whatever benefits THEM, not necessarily benefiting you. Companies, like governments (to call back to your earlier analogy), rely on participation in the process and then spin it to draw the conclusions they want.

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GameRager: (Also if everyone stopped shopping at stores that didn't care about the consumer 90% or so of all companies would fold up....most only care about money, plain and simple. You cannot stop greed permanently so why bother trying? It's like trying to fight the wind)
First, I wouldn't necessarily say that's a bad thing, but one would think the sane companies would adjust to the new expectations of consumers instead of trying to keep the greedy practices despite the market roundly rejecting it.

Second, it's not about stopping greed, but trying to keep it at a ..reasonable.. level.

Given what we have seen the PC market already be in the past (so we're not even talking about some hypothetical ideal), draconian DRM stores like Scheme and EFS are clearly unreasonable by contrast.
First thought when I saw the thread title.
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rjbuffchix: Well (and you might not like this answer), I don't want to pad social media's numbers any more than I want to pad DRMed stores numbers :)

The silly alternate names can hopefully plant a seed for people in a way that me just calling them by the "real" names would not. They also help keep things in perspective for me. Think of it as a way of dealing with a sad reality.
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No offense taken, and I was only using wacko as like a figure of speech. Anyway, I call back to an earlier discussion of ours and maintain that on many topics, an extreme position IS the reasonable one to have and moreover to assume extreme positions are unreasonable by default, is itself unreasonable (logical fallacy).
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Even if a person is more satisfied by standing to their principles, than "loosening" up and being more dissatisfied as a result? What good does that experience of "culture" or "broader experience" do for them then? (Answer: None, or really more accurate, it does Negative good).
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I do not really wish to get into political discussion but that desert island sounds wonderful to me :) Seems a flawed analogy regardless, since the desert island would provide WAY more than a good feeling in your hypothetical; it would prevent others from infringing on your liberty.

Either the authority is oppressing the person or it isn't. Either the DRM is present or it isn't. Either the DRM can be justified to consumers or it cannot be.

(note that DRM supporters could also try to ground arguments for their own position in reality. For example, all the corporate apologists who say it HAS to exist to prevent piracy. Though in that case I don't think their view is all that grounded in reality but at least they are trying lol).
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Still would be signing up for an account and padding their numbers (I regret doing this for EFS..you may recall I tried to get Axiom Verge DRM-free and gave up after 5 minutes of trying to fight off the client nagging). Still would be downloading it, also padding the store's numbers. Ditto for buying at deep discount..still buying, still showing support albeit in a possibly reduced way.
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It doesn't sound callous, but it does sound like the "self satisfaction" you are accusing me and others of.
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You are participating in the market!! Your actions in the market will be read by companies whether you like it or not, even if you explicitly told them not to do so! To the big companies, we are just the equivalent of statistics. In reading your actions in the market, of course the companies will try to spin your actions to represent whatever benefits THEM, not necessarily benefiting you. Companies, like governments (to call back to your earlier analogy), rely on participation in the process and then spin it to draw the conclusions they want.
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First, I wouldn't necessarily say that's a bad thing, but one would think the sane companies would adjust to the new expectations of consumers instead of trying to keep the greedy practices despite the market roundly rejecting it.
1st bit- Oh c'mon.....using a site to make real change would actually be likely to have a good chance at affecting some change....so what if it gives them a few clicks/cents?

(Basically you are making excuses as to why you cannot do this or that, even when it would benefit your side)

Sometimes you need to use methods you dislike to affect change and also be willing to get your hands "dirty" to also do so. Also i'd think more see the names as more "childish" than convincing when you try to present your side....just my two cents.

2nd bit- I never meant that all extreme positions are 100% unreasonable. I meant some are very unreasonable in some ways.

3rd bit- One doesn't know they will be more or less dissatisfied until they try something a bit. Also yes, imo those with such stances would be more happy with more media to enjoy than constantly not playing various games to uphold an ideal. Heck, they;d also be more happy(imo) affecting change with social media/etc movements that got stuff done, as they'd feel they'd made holding their stance worth something other than good feelings. :\

And it does more for them to experience more, imho....we all live short lives....why limit ourselves due to self signaling morals to such a degree?

4th Bit- To me it works to illustrate that one would have to sacrifice a lot(and likely be very uncomfortable) just to have that same good feeling which amounts to next to nothing in the end.

A better analogy: A person dislike anything suffering and says all plants and animals cannot suffer so they starve to hold their stance. Unreasonable or no?

Also you seem to see the world in black/white with that is or isn't argument....there ARE shades of grey in some cases, you know. ;)

Aside: I also think DRM doesn't prevent much piracy but it could be good for the first month of sales and then removed in an ideal world.

5th bit- As I said before: Compromise is key to being successful and most happy in life(imo), and often it is required to get through life in some ways.

Adding one more number to their accounts or a few cents isn't changing much. If one wants real change one needs to make it happen. ;)

6th bit- I never said or claimed self satisfaction was always bad....just that depriving one's self of a good amount of stuff just to get some of it is a bad tradeoff and not worth it imo. I was also not accusing you of it(as if I was trying to chastize you like an angry parent).....I was just saying how I feel on self satisfaction from deprivation to such an extent.

7th bit- I may be participating, but I make my displeasure known. I buy in deep sales and buy used if a game maker does something bad, and voice such using the proper channels. I do more than just sit around like many do and hope the problem will go away or similar(I mean all and not just you who do so or seem to do so).

By doing so I get what I want and also try to affect some change and make my concerns known to those who need to know and those who might be able to change things. This is how to get things done.

8th bit- Lastly, you cannot stop or even mostly cut out greed....it's built into humanity along with all the good and bad aspects and nothing short of controlling people's minds somehow would change that.

Also even if we got rid of any "greedy" corps more would fill the void eventually most likely.
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First thought when I saw the thread title.
Well Most DRM is as bad for one as airline food....good analogy/pic.
Post edited August 27, 2019 by GameRager
I wonder if he realizes I'm one of the people that low rates all of his posts.
Post edited August 27, 2019 by tinyE
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GameRager: 1st bit- Oh c'mon.....using a site to make real change would actually be likely to have a good chance at affecting some change....so what if it gives them a few clicks/cents?

(Basically you are making excuses as to why you cannot do this or that, even when it would benefit your side)
You yourself said earlier that "In the end steam and epic will chug on and you and others will have accomplished next to nothing to affect them" (post 96). You then went on to suggest social media as the tool that would accomplish change. I don't mean for this to come off as condescending but do you honestly believe that social media on its own can stop the "chugging on" of bad stores? I sure don't. We may be talking past each other actually because in my view it isn't even about affecting change from these big stores, per se. They are set in their ways and so is most of the market.

I am looking to preserve a niche market which by definition is a minority in the bigger marketplace. Barring some wild hypothetical scandal like Scheme going out of business overnight with no way for people to download their games or business owner getting #metoo'd, social media without that sort of fuel behind it isn't doing jack to get other customers to wake up and demand better out of these companies (the companies obviously won't change on their own unless in response to customer demand, so you have to work the change out via the other customers).

To me it is more about advocating for DRM-free gaming than demanding the big stores themselves change their ways. I do "demand" as a consumer that they change their ways or I won't purchase from them (but since I am in the minority on this point, they couldn't care less). Right now and for the foreseeable future, GOG is where it's at for DRM-free gaming getting a wide audience.

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GameRager: 3rd bit- One doesn't know they will be more or less dissatisfied until they try something a bit. Also yes, imo those with such stances would be more happy with more media to enjoy than constantly not playing various games to uphold an ideal. Heck, they;d also be more happy(imo) affecting change with social media/etc movements that got stuff done, as they'd feel they'd made holding their stance worth something other than good feelings. :\
I have played many DRMed games/experienced DRM, so that first sentence here is a nonstarter: I do know. But since you are very insistent about this social media point, maybe you'd be willing to try an experiment. Go organize the "Raise awareness of DRM" facebook page or youtube channel or instagram. Let me know how much change it gets done regarding the big stores' practices. You will find what I posted above, that without some type of out-of-your-control, random, bigger impetus for mainstream market people to be outraged, the DRM juggernauts will keep chugging along. There is nothing else that will get mainstream people to your side in great numbers.

So even if you got a lot of passionate folks like me on board, without some bigger cause/bigger random mainstream impetus, the majority of people, gaming market at large, would not care. They sure haven't yet. What's the term they always brand us as? Ah yes, "vocal minority" (with the implication we don't deserve to be listened to). And it gets worse! Many games are designed around "whales," so even if a majority of the market at large were swayed by your social media, and would openly "revolt" and stop buying the games, the companies could still be trotting out the bad practices!
It is an uncontrollable situation bordering on "no-win" for any consumer that gives a hoot about DRM.

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GameRager: And it does more for them to experience more, imho....we all live short lives....why limit ourselves due to self signaling morals to such a degree?
You keep focusing on the self (which again, is perfectly fine as an end unto itself, i.e. not needing more justification). But it goes beyond that. I want people to be able to have the option of DRM-free experiences if they so choose. And ironically, supporting anticonsumer practices that continue to erode this option, takes away potential choice and experience of people going forward.

Something people don't want to believe is that there is not going to be this wonderful utopian marketplace where the consumer has all these choices of streaming or non-streaming, DRM or non-DRM, and you can choose how much or how little DRM you want. The reality of it, based upon already observable reality, is that the companies are going to give you the following "choice": accept DRM, or don't get to play the game at all.

The more support that someone gives to an anticonsumer practice, the more the opposite pro-consumer practice is harmed. The more the anticonsumer practice is hailed, the more the pro-consumer practice is minimized or brushed aside as not relevant. People don't like this patently obvious truth, but it is what shaped the gaming market (particularly the PC gaming market).

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GameRager: A better analogy: A person dislike anything suffering and says all plants and animals cannot suffer so they starve to hold their stance. Unreasonable or no?
Just pointing out this is incoherent... as your hypothetical person would also be suffering in that example.

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GameRager: 5th bit- As I said before: Compromise is key to being successful and most happy in life(imo), and often it is required to get through life in some ways.
Required to get through life in some ways, yes. Key to being most happy, no! Oh man, so many examples of how that's not the case, but perhaps you and I just have very different outlooks on life. Try asking a married couple who "settled" for one another how happy they are. Make sure to grab some popcorn :)

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GameRager: 7th bit- I may be participating, but I make my displeasure known. I buy in deep sales and buy used if a game maker does something bad, and voice such using the proper channels. I do more than just sit around like many do and hope the problem will go away or similar(I mean all and not just you who do so or seem to do so).
I don't do nothing. That said, I have very limited power as a consumer who hopes a niche market survives let alone could ever become mainstream.

Moreover, here's the sad truth. Someone "doing nothing" is still doing MORE for DRM-free gaming than someone who buys from a DRMed store, even at deep discount. Yes that means you ;)

These big companies don't care about your displeasure. They already got your support. They already can tell their shareholders that X number of people were "pleased enough" to support them, with you adding +1 to the number.

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GameRager: 8th bit- Lastly, you cannot stop or even mostly cut out greed....it's built into humanity along with all the good and bad aspects and nothing short of controlling people's minds somehow would change that.
Of course a company is going to be "greedy," that's part of how it survives as a business. But surely you see how the market of consumers can naturally limit the greed depending on what practices they do/don't accept, to say nothing of there being competition in a market from other companies. Do you see why McDonald's can't realistically make their hamburger cost $20? The answer isn't "someone is mind-controlling their CEO," lol.
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rjbuffchix: You yourself said earlier that "In the end steam and epic will chug on and you and others will have accomplished next to nothing to affect them" (post 96). You then went on to suggest social media as the tool that would accomplish change. I don't mean for this to come off as condescending but do you honestly believe that social media on its own can stop the "chugging on" of bad stores? I sure don't. We may be talking past each other actually because in my view it isn't even about affecting change from these big stores, per se. They are set in their ways and so is most of the market.

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I am looking to preserve a niche market which by definition is a minority in the bigger marketplace. Barring some wild hypothetical scandal like Scheme going out of business overnight with no way for people to download their games or business owner getting #metoo'd, social media without that sort of fuel behind it isn't doing jack to get other customers to wake up and demand better out of these companies (the companies obviously won't change on their own unless in response to customer demand, so you have to work the change out via the other customers).

To me it is more about advocating for DRM-free gaming than demanding the big stores themselves change their ways. I do "demand" as a consumer that they change their ways or I won't purchase from them (but since I am in the minority on this point, they couldn't care less). Right now and for the foreseeable future, GOG is where it's at for DRM-free gaming getting a wide audience.
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I have played many DRMed games/experienced DRM, so that first sentence here is a nonstarter: I do know. But since you are very insistent about this social media point, maybe you'd be willing to try an experiment. Go organize the "Raise awareness of DRM" facebook page or youtube channel or instagram. Let me know how much change it gets done regarding the big stores' practices. You will find what I posted above, that without some type of out-of-your-control, random, bigger impetus for mainstream market people to be outraged, the DRM juggernauts will keep chugging along. There is nothing else that will get mainstream people to your side in great numbers.

So even if you got a lot of passionate folks like me on board, without some bigger cause/bigger random mainstream impetus, the majority of people, gaming market at large, would not care. They sure haven't yet. What's the term they always brand us as? Ah yes, "vocal minority" (with the implication we don't deserve to be listened to). And it gets worse! Many games are designed around "whales," so even if a majority of the market at large were swayed by your social media, and would openly "revolt" and stop buying the games, the companies could still be trotting out the bad practices!
It is an uncontrollable situation bordering on "no-win" for any consumer that gives a hoot about DRM.
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You keep focusing on the self (which again, is perfectly fine as an end unto itself, i.e. not needing more justification). But it goes beyond that. I want people to be able to have the option of DRM-free experiences if they so choose. And ironically, supporting anticonsumer practices that continue to erode this option, takes away potential choice and experience of people going forward.

Something people don't want to believe is that there is not going to be this wonderful utopian marketplace where the consumer has all these choices of streaming or non-streaming, DRM or non-DRM, and you can choose how much or how little DRM you want. The reality of it, based upon already observable reality, is that the companies are going to give you the following "choice": accept DRM, or don't get to play the game at all.

The more support that someone gives to an anticonsumer practice, the more the opposite pro-consumer practice is harmed. The more the anticonsumer practice is hailed, the more the pro-consumer practice is minimized or brushed aside as not relevant. People don't like this patently obvious truth, but it is what shaped the gaming market (particularly the PC gaming market).
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Just pointing out this is incoherent... as your hypothetical person would also be suffering in that example.
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Required to get through life in some ways, yes. Key to being most happy, no! Oh man, so many examples of how that's not the case, but perhaps you and I just have very different outlooks on life. Try asking a married couple who "settled" for one another how happy they are. Make sure to grab some popcorn :)
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I don't do nothing. That said, I have very limited power as a consumer who hopes a niche market survives let alone could ever become mainstream.

Moreover, here's the sad truth. Someone "doing nothing" is still doing MORE for DRM-free gaming than someone who buys from a DRMed store, even at deep discount. Yes that means you ;)

These big companies don't care about your displeasure. They already got your support. They already can tell their shareholders that X number of people were "pleased enough" to support them, with you adding +1 to the number.
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Of course a company is going to be "greedy," that's part of how it survives as a business. But surely you see how the market of consumers can naturally limit the greed depending on what practices they do/don't accept, to say nothing of there being competition in a market from other companies. Do you see why McDonald's can't realistically make their hamburger cost $20? The answer isn't "someone is mind-controlling their CEO," lol.
First off I applaud and thank you for sticking with me so long and keeping up this conversation. As Tim Poole and others have said 'The key to finding a middle ground is talking not fighting" and "We may not agree 100% but we can come to better understand and respect each other".

(Post replies to come in a bit....went past character limit......will post response proper in 10 minutes)
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Now for the reply(bits pertain to each segment of the quoted reply above, in order from top to bottom) -

1st bit- I said and still think that this doesn't affect them(talking on a forum and essentially shouting in a closed off room)....but that social media movements(done for good causes) can be an effective tool for SOME change.

Such likely won't get everything one wants, but if we can make minor victories and even bigger ones here and there then it is much more done to further our causes than simply talking on forums(no personal offense intended by that bit).

2nd bit- I find this bit "funny" because didn't you say we should "fight" for change and not settle or accept compromise or similar?

If so i'm surprised you aren't more into trying to change such stores/systems if even a little bit here and there, and are essentially willing to 'settle' for things staying as they are with such stores/etc(this is from my pov....feel free to correct any misconceptions).

And i'm sorry to say this but I am blunt and truthful first and foremost: "Demanding" they change by not buying doesn't do much of anything if a ton of others don't follow suit. Only the squeakiest wheel these days gets the proverbial grease. This is why I say if one wants change they need to "hit up" the proper internet channels.

3rd bit- First off I am a lazy git, and sometimes mess up my words(plus I don't use social media much beyond saving memes and pics)....I would leave it to the more charismatic speakers to do so.

And that is where it would work(imo)......with the right "face" and the right words/phrasing the movement could actually accomplish some of what you want to see happen. SImply making a "drm is bad" social media group wouldn't do much, but wording and packaging(spinning) it right WOULD likely do much.

4th bit- I focus on the self because for most that's all that matters in the end. One should do stuff(as you do) and make choices based on how good/bad they view them and logic shows, not based on how others will view such people for thinking/doing so(barring anything illegal & harmful, of course).

Also people DO HAVE CHOICES besides play with DRM or not(if a game has DRM)...one can crack it out and play anyways, for example. No one limits one's consumption literally for many such things.....people artificially limit themselves for various reasons more often. And people have options even if they choose to not touch DRM games/stores period....and they likely always will as businesses will see the money and cater to such people as yourself/others.

5th bit- It's a valid analogy.....some consider their own suffering to be a small price to pay for such.

(A bit of asking here: Try not to just shoot down my examples but try to see where i'm coming from with them and work with that)

6th bit- It's often the couples who scrap(argue) the most that love and respect each other the most and stick together the longest.....my parents were a good example of this, and other members of my family were as well(yes, anecdotal, but I felt it worthwhile to bring up).

7th bit- I could argue that they do about the same(not the same but close to it), and that the difference is close to zero and thus doesn't matter in the end. Adding one more number to an already high and profitable number doesn't make much difference to shareholders, and removing one wouldn't do much either. You'd need many thousands doing such to even make a dent in how they view the business's profitability/etc.

8th bit- A few people can't do squat(sadly) unless they make a stink where people will notice....like on social media or if they get a popular "news" site or two to run with it.

Also McDonalds and such don't charge 20 bucks for their burgers not just to not lose business but because it's against the law to price gouge in many areas.