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Dungeons & Dragons: Dark Sun SeriesSome notes on character creation(34 posts)(34 posts)
(34 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 25, 2015
Now that I actually have the game, I played around with character creation, and here are some observations:

Multi-class limitations:

Gladiator can't be used in any multi-class combination. (It appears they can dual-class if human, however.)

Fighter/Ranger, Cleric/Druid, and Ranger/Druid are forbidden combinations. (Ranger/Druid likely forbidden because of alignment restrictions, although I don't think the Druid's really makes sense in this setting.)

Halflings can't triple class. (This doesn't make sense to me from a balance perspective.)

Half-giants can't triple class. (This, however, does make sense from a balance perspective; getting double rolled HP is a huge benefit.)

Muls can be Druids, but can't be Druid/Psionicists for some reason. Other races that can be Druids don't have this restriction.

Starting Psionics are always the same for each discipline. Non-psionicists always start with 4 powers of their chosen discipline plus mind blank.

Psionicists start with fewer psionic powers of any given discipline than non-psionicists, but have all three disciplines covered. A multi-class psionic starts at level 2 instead of 3 and has fewer powers known; in particular, the only psychometabolic power they start with is Drain Life. (On the other hand, keep in mind that you get one extra level to learn powers of your choice.)

Dual-classing into psionicist doesn't give you any new powers; you still only have the powers you had before. (I assume you can learn more powers by leveling up, of course.)

Preservers always start with the same 4 first level spells. Single class preservers start with 2 specific second level spells. I haven't checked the dual class situation.

Edit: Characters who dual class into preserver start only with Magic Missile and Grease. Characters who start as a preserver additionally know Shield and Wall of Fog. (Note, however, that you do get an extra spell pick for leveling up from 1 to 2 after dual classing.)

Edit 2: Creating characters is actually really fast, to the point where I actually reached the maximum number of reserve characters and had to delete them. This is especially true if you don't care about stats (for example, if you are just creating a character to test something).
Post edited November 25, 2015 by dtgreene
Posted November 26, 2015
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dtgreene: Now that I actually have the game, I played around with character creation, and here are some observations:

Multi-class limitations:

Gladiator can't be used in any multi-class combination. (It appears they can dual-class if human, however.)

Fighter/Ranger, Cleric/Druid, and Ranger/Druid are forbidden combinations. (Ranger/Druid likely forbidden because of alignment restrictions, although I don't think the Druid's really makes sense in this setting.)

Halflings can't triple class. (This doesn't make sense to me from a balance perspective.)

Half-giants can't triple class. (This, however, does make sense from a balance perspective; getting double rolled HP is a huge benefit.)

Muls can be Druids, but can't be Druid/Psionicists for some reason. Other races that can be Druids don't have this restriction.

Starting Psionics are always the same for each discipline. Non-psionicists always start with 4 powers of their chosen discipline plus mind blank.

Psionicists start with fewer psionic powers of any given discipline than non-psionicists, but have all three disciplines covered. A multi-class psionic starts at level 2 instead of 3 and has fewer powers known; in particular, the only psychometabolic power they start with is Drain Life. (On the other hand, keep in mind that you get one extra level to learn powers of your choice.)

Dual-classing into psionicist doesn't give you any new powers; you still only have the powers you had before. (I assume you can learn more powers by leveling up, of course.)

Preservers always start with the same 4 first level spells. Single class preservers start with 2 specific second level spells. I haven't checked the dual class situation.

Edit: Characters who dual class into preserver start only with Magic Missile and Grease. Characters who start as a preserver additionally know Shield and Wall of Fog. (Note, however, that you do get an extra spell pick for leveling up from 1 to 2 after dual classing.)

Edit 2: Creating characters is actually really fast, to the point where I actually reached the maximum number of reserve characters and had to delete them. This is especially true if you don't care about stats (for example, if you are just creating a character to test something).
Gladiators were a good class because if I remember they get a +1 to AC and were better fighters. On top of that, I see no reason picking the brute giant race. The problem is that when I did play the game way back, they get targeted much too often from weak ac, because of that, a human, thri-keen or mul are better warriors than half giant.

Sacrificing ac for a few strength points doesn't measure out to the right stuff. The real thing is dealing damage and surviving it. Not so much dealing it and getting destroyed in process.

Bring lots of clerics-if I remember there are no places where you can shop for potions so you are screwed without one. As far as I can tell this game would be great if they could fix the snatch-crabs of this festering bugginess.
Posted November 26, 2015
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dtgreene: Now that I actually have the game, I played around with character creation, and here are some observations:

Multi-class limitations:

Gladiator can't be used in any multi-class combination. (It appears they can dual-class if human, however.)

Fighter/Ranger, Cleric/Druid, and Ranger/Druid are forbidden combinations. (Ranger/Druid likely forbidden because of alignment restrictions, although I don't think the Druid's really makes sense in this setting.)

Halflings can't triple class. (This doesn't make sense to me from a balance perspective.)

Half-giants can't triple class. (This, however, does make sense from a balance perspective; getting double rolled HP is a huge benefit.)

Muls can be Druids, but can't be Druid/Psionicists for some reason. Other races that can be Druids don't have this restriction.

Starting Psionics are always the same for each discipline. Non-psionicists always start with 4 powers of their chosen discipline plus mind blank.

Psionicists start with fewer psionic powers of any given discipline than non-psionicists, but have all three disciplines covered. A multi-class psionic starts at level 2 instead of 3 and has fewer powers known; in particular, the only psychometabolic power they start with is Drain Life. (On the other hand, keep in mind that you get one extra level to learn powers of your choice.)

Dual-classing into psionicist doesn't give you any new powers; you still only have the powers you had before. (I assume you can learn more powers by leveling up, of course.)

Preservers always start with the same 4 first level spells. Single class preservers start with 2 specific second level spells. I haven't checked the dual class situation.

Edit: Characters who dual class into preserver start only with Magic Missile and Grease. Characters who start as a preserver additionally know Shield and Wall of Fog. (Note, however, that you do get an extra spell pick for leveling up from 1 to 2 after dual classing.)

Edit 2: Creating characters is actually really fast, to the point where I actually reached the maximum number of reserve characters and had to delete them. This is especially true if you don't care about stats (for example, if you are just creating a character to test something).
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deathknight1728: Gladiators were a good class because if I remember they get a +1 to AC and were better fighters. On top of that, I see no reason picking the brute giant race. The problem is that when I did play the game way back, they get targeted much too often from weak ac, because of that, a human, thri-keen or mul are better warriors than half giant.

Sacrificing ac for a few strength points doesn't measure out to the right stuff. The real thing is dealing damage and surviving it. Not so much dealing it and getting destroyed in process.

Bring lots of clerics-if I remember there are no places where you can shop for potions so you are screwed without one. As far as I can tell this game would be great if they could fix the snatch-crabs of this festering bugginess.
Half-giants get a lot of hit points. If you can keep the half-giant out of harm's way, the half-giant can keep those HP. Now, consider that there is a psionic power called Lend Health that allows the hit points to be transferred to another character. Hence, your half-giant psionicist can function as a healer. (Note that you will want to multi-class with fighter for the hit points.) Just make sure to learn Cell Adjustment. (See? You don't need a cleric for healing.) If you have no divine casters, you can additionally add Absorb Disease to deal with any diseases you encounter.

Of note, at least at character creation, the extra HP from high Constitution does not appear to be doubled; only the rolled HP is.

Also, psionics can help defensively. Use Biofeedback (-1 AC and -2 damage received) and Displacement (-2 AC) to get your half-giant's AC down.

Druids are better than clerics. Clerics only get one healing spell and it is absurdly weak. Druids at least get healing spells that, while still weak, are at least a bit better.

If you want a character with really good AC, try a Half-Elf Fighter/Preserver/Psionicist. You get Blur, Displacement, and Biofeedback to improve your AC. 21 Dexterity gives you one point better AC than the 20 that humans get (compensating for not being a Gladiator), and 22 doesn't provide any further benefit, yet the stat penalties for being a full Elf are more severe.

Note that this is still somewhat theoretical, as I have not yet seriously start playing the game. (Of note, however, is that I did manage to pull off a backstab in the starting battle with the default party, especially since this game doesn't seem to implement opportunity attacks the way the Gold Box games did.)
Posted December 01, 2015
Gladiators get an AC bonus with armor at different levels. I believe it starts at 5th and goes +1 AC per 2-3 levels. Something like that. I believe this bonus is called something like "armor optimization" and comes from the fact that gladiators know how to use armor better or more actively in close combat.

Half-giants get double base hit points both on creation and every level. They also have the highest Constitution and Strength scores by a large margin. Their physical advantage is absurd and quickly gets out of hand; you will find them to be unconditionally the best warriors in the game. So half-giant gladiators are very busted in my opinion (though very faithful to the P&P), which is why I made the Scrapper challenge.

Aside from a low Dexterity, the only AC penalty I'm aware that half-giants have is due to size, so dwarves or halflings get a slight advantage against them. Since dwarves and halflings are some of the weakest monsters you can find, it doesn't matter. I'm not even sure the game enforces the penalty.

Clerics are actually pretty good since they can wear any armor, not just materials tied to their element. There are some good armor sets in the game, though I won't spoil them here. Turn Undead also kills Shadows with impunity, which can be fairly tough due to their paralysis touch.

@dtgreene
Halflings have Fighter/Thief/Psionicist as a valid triple class combination. They're supposed to be a pretty feral race, not advanced. Just google for the 2nd edition Dark Sun rulebook, some of your other observations may just be canon.

Fighter/Ranger and Cleric/Druid I believe are invalid by even the core 2nd edition rules. Same class grouping (Warrior and Priest, respectively).

It is weird that muls can't be Druid/Psionicist, must be an oversight. I can't think of a rules or Athas-based argument to make for that one.
Post edited December 01, 2015 by bismuthdrummer
Posted December 01, 2015
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bismuthdrummer: It is weird that muls can't be Druid/Psionicist, must be an oversight. I can't think of a rules or Athas-based argument to make for that one.
I just checked. Muls actually can be Druid/Psionicist, but despite being allowed other triple class combinations, are not able to add a third class to it.

The problem with Clerics is that their spell selection is horrible at higher levels. The only healing spells they ever get are Cure Light Wounds and Aid, both of which are horrendously weak. (Water Clerics get Blood Flow, but that spell is worse then the Druid's Cure Serious Wounds, and in the sequel, what is the point of Water of Life?)

Also, thri-kreen are really good at the start. A thri-kreen with 20 Strength will average over 40 damage if all the attacks hit, and an AC of -1 is possible thanks to high Dexterity, base AC 5, and Biofeedback. (A thri-kreen psionicist can reach -3 if you add Displacement to the list, and that's ignoring Flesh Armor, which is only good at higher levels.)

I am only planning on using one half-giant and am planning on giving her Lend Health. (Fortunately, the game doesn't implement the sexist 1st edition rule regarding female strength.)

By the way, do Rangers get Cosmos spells like Cure Light Wounds? (If the answer is no, then non-Earth Rangers get no spells in Shattered Lands.)
Posted December 01, 2015
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dtgreene: By the way, do Rangers get Cosmos spells like Cure Light Wounds? (If the answer is no, then non-Earth Rangers get no spells in Shattered Lands.)
The rulebook says no Cosmos access. So you could be right.
Posted December 01, 2015
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dtgreene: By the way, do Rangers get Cosmos spells like Cure Light Wounds? (If the answer is no, then non-Earth Rangers get no spells in Shattered Lands.)
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bismuthdrummer: The rulebook says no Cosmos access. So you could be right.
I think I need to test that using my ability to hack saves. Coming up, a level 9 Human Ranger with the Air sphere.

Edit: Just did this, and it turns out that she *does* get the Cosmos spells. (Of course, she would need to rest to actually cast them, but she did have them known.)

Incidentally, when testing this, the Defiler actually won the arena battle, defeating the Ravager. Guess the Defiler got lucky (the Ravager kept missing). Has anybody else seen this happen?
Post edited December 01, 2015 by dtgreene
Posted December 02, 2015
Regarding HP gain at level up:

I created a half-giant fighter with 22 Constitution and 24 HP, ad had her level up from 3 to 4 a total of 13 times. Of note:

I got 50 HP (a gain of 26 from one level, the max possible under the rules) 3 times.

I got 38 HP (a gain of 14 HP) a few times, but never got anything less. (A roll of 1 would give 8 HP, yielding a total of only 32 HP.)

It seems the game has something to prevent your maximum HP from being too low. This also means that, if your Constitution increases during the game, a character with average HP may gain a significant amount from the first level up. (There is apparently a ring that does this.)

Edit:
Of note, all the HP totals are even in all tests.

One more test: I set her maximum HP to 1, then leveled her up. She then gained 47 (!) HP for a total of 48. It really does seem that the game is programmed to ensure that your HP isn't too low (and isn't it odd that she gained an *odd* amount of HP this time?).

More tests:

255 HP became 40 after a level up. (I am suspecting an integer overflow here.)

Actually, it seems that the game somehow remembers the created HP, but can't find it in the save file. Starting with 48 HP (hacked from 24) has led to HP decreases.

I will need to try creating 2 characters who are identical except for starting HP and see what is different between the files. (Does the game store individual HP rolls somewhere?)

Note that everything before the edit was tested without hacking anything other than experience.
Post edited December 02, 2015 by dtgreene
Posted December 02, 2015
Solved the hit point mystery. Your base HP (that is, HP counting only rolls and not Constitution bonus) is stored in the save file, at offset 0x26 from the start of the character's name. Set it to 0xFF and the character now has 291 HP after a level up.

In other words, Constitution bonuses to HP are retroactive, in a way.

Edit: Save/Load doesn't recalculate HP. To get maximum HP, you just need to have the Constitution boosting ring equipped at the time of your final level up. If you level up with the ring and then level up without, you could lose HP.

Edit 2: Corrected offset. (My hex editor shows 32 bytes/line, not 16.) Also, changed ad -> at.
Post edited December 02, 2015 by dtgreene
Posted December 02, 2015
Another note: On level up, it seems that non-psionicist pp are set to the expected amount plus 4*level. Don't know how it works for multi-class characters.
Posted December 06, 2015
Also, Dwarves can't be Cleric/Thieves, despite being able to be either class individually and other races being able to choose that combination.
Posted December 08, 2015
There is a way to get a Cleric with access to two elemental spheres. First, create a Human Ranger and select one of the spheres you want. Then, dual class into Cleric and choose the other sphere. As soon as you regain your Ranger abilities (by exceeding your previous level or, in WotR, being the target of Reincarnate), you will have major access to both spheres. Suddenly, the limited selection of higher level spells doesn't seem as bad as it was.

(Note that I have only tested this in WotR, but level 7 Ranger was enough, as was (in the Reincarnate case) level 1/7 Ranger/Cleric.)

This might seem like an exploit, but I would argue it's a good way to counter-balance the Cleric's biggest limitation.
Posted December 09, 2015
One of the cleric's strengths is the ability to be a dualed class. ;)
Posted December 09, 2015
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bismuthdrummer: One of the cleric's strengths is the ability to be a dualed class. ;)
Druids can as well, so that isn't an advantage of the Cleric. (On the other hand, you can't multi/dual Ranger/Druid because of alignment restrictions.)

As I said, however, I would be inclined to consider this trick fair, simply because Druids have major Cosmos access, while Clerics don't.

By the way, which spheres would you be likely to choose if using this setup? For the second game I would probably do something like Water/Earth or Water/Fire. This way, I get decent elemental spells *while* still getting a spell equivalent to the most important healing spell.
Posted December 09, 2015
I was thinking of kit/specialist limitations. In any case, Clerics lacking major Cosmos access is by design in the campaign world. Multiple spheres definitely seems like an exploit since I'm pretty sure elemental worship has to be dedicated. That's a hole they should have closed pretty easily but testers probably missed it.

I like Earth because of Dust Cloud, Ironskin, Quicksand, but I haven't thought about combinations.
Post edited December 09, 2015 by bismuthdrummer
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Dungeons & Dragons: Dark Sun SeriesSome notes on character creation(34 posts)(34 posts)
(34 posts)