:D

Reminds me of a quote I once ran across:

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"An important thing to consider is motivation, as Sword & Sorcery characters generally don't help people in need out of pure compassion. Offering them a reward always works, but it's a rather weak and impersonal motivation. What I discovered to work really well, is to have the villains of the adventure hurt the PCs pride in some way. If you tell the players they characters are total badasses and someone burned down their favorite tavern, you only have to ask them if they are letting those punks get away with it. Aim at the players pride. The villain does not have to be defeated to protect the innocent, out of justice, or any other noble goal like that. He has to die because he picked the wrong people to mess with! It doesn't have to be complex or clever in any way. If you can make the players feel insulted or humiliated by the NPCs, the players will work themselves into a furious rage and hand out righteous carnage."
-Yora, from GiantInThePlayground forum
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Heh, nice allegory... but true. :D

Well, Imoen can't improve her thief skills, so she can't do well with some of the lesser used thief skills. In particular, she can't remove illusions without a spell, and can't remove illusions that are protected with Spell Immunity (though enemies aren't smart enough to do this IIRC unless you are using mods).

She can't equip anything that can't be equipped by a thief or a mage; at high levels (at the point when HLAs show up), characters who can level up as a thief can. She also can't get any of the other thief HPAs.

Also, thanks to a glitch, it's possible to skip Spellhold and not rescue Imoen; this also skips an important part of the story, along with the effects it has on your main character's abilities.

Well, I suppose reaching Spellhold and using the portal to the Underworld without bothering to stop to rescue Imoen would qualify.

You are ignoring part of what he said in an attempt to dispute his point, which is that Imoen is fully able to handle all thief related duties.

Which doors is Imoen unable to unlock, once items, spells, scrolls, and potions are factored in? Which traps is she unable to detect and disarm, once items, spells, scrolls, and potions are factored in? She can cast the spells that remove spell protections, including spells that remove Spell Immunity (Illusion), so she can perform that function as well; you even note that she isn't likely to need to do this.

You are technically correct in that she can't level up her thief skills (though she can improve them), and that she doesn't have access to Thief HLAs. Of course, those HLAs don't affect which functions a Thief provides the party: removing traps, opening locks, scouting, removing illusions, and dealing damage.

Yes, it is possible to use glitches to do things you aren't meant to do.

*squints* Are you trying to miss the point? Because it looks like you are trying to miss the point.

The thing is, there are some thief skills that are essential, and others that are not; it is the non-essential ones that she isn't as good at. She can't backstab as well a character with more thief levels (though she can Shapechange without a one-time Limited Wish or a scroll sooner and backstab in that form), she can't abuse some of the more broken trap HLAs (spells are subject to magic resistance), and she can't use certain items. Furthermore, she needs to use spells or consumables to do certain things that a character who levels up as a thief doesn't need them for.

There is a difference between being able to fulfill the necessary thief duties (which Imoen can) and being as good as a character who can level up thief at them (which Imoen can't do).

It'e like mages performing cleric duties; sure, they can do so at high levels (think Limited Wish, Summon Planetar, and the use of Project Image with Rods of Resurrection), but it's more cumbersome to do so when a cleric can just cast a spell and have that be enough to heal.

(Incidentally, as another side note, I honestly don't like the inclusion of traps and lockpicking in this game; it artificially makes the thief class required. Either make the thief class useful without making it necessary, or don't include the class in the first place. I'm inclined to take the second option, though some JRPGs (Dragon Quest series and Final Fantasy series (except one part in FF3) take that option in games with thieves).

There is no essential thief skill, whereby essential means "required to beat the game". You don't even need glitches to do beat the game without a thief. Solo single class mage runs are a thing.

As a point of order, she DOES backstab significantly better than some thieves, including thieves with an extra 25 thief levels on her. She doesn't need to backstab at all; backstabbing is a means of doing damage, and she has other ways of efficiently dealing damage. The HLA traps either do damage or cast Time Stop; she can both of those things.

Yes, she needs spells to help support her in performing some of the thief actions, but hey, she has spells. No, she can't use certain items, but she has a wider range of item choices than thieves who haven't taken UAI.

While true, this misses Hickory's point and doesn't contradict it, which is that Imoen is good enough to perform thief duties.

Yes. And?

When the proposition comes up "Hey, I want to reduce party size", this type of statement says "Well, if you already have a mage, then you can dump the cleric to reduce party size."

The thief class is not required, though having one does make life easier.

There is nothing, thief-wise, that Imoen can't do that Jan Jansen can do. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

The thing is, traps just don't feel fair to me, and if you aren't familiar with the game, you might not know how to survive some of the traps. Plus, their existence tends to slow down gameplay. About the only times I've liked traps in a video game are when they're used sparingly (see certain JRPGs with monsters in chests, for example), or when you have a game like Syoban Action (a mario-style platformer where there are many traps that will kill you in funny ways, but you fortunately have unlimited lives and the traps are always in the same locations, so you can learn to avoid them).

I could mention the early Wizardry games. You basically need a thief to get decent loot (otherwise you have to weather traps that do things like paralyze all your priests; Wizardry 5 made traps even worse), but thieves are otherwise useless. So, in other words, you are spending a party slot just to deal with chest traps. Might and Magic feels this way, though at least starting in 2 thieves gain some extra attacks, so they're decent at melee combat. Bard's Tale 1 and 2 basically made rogues pointless by including the Trap Zap spell; Bard's Tale 3 fixed this by giving rogues the ability to hide and then instant kill enemies (including bosses!) from a distance. (Of course, in BT3, a rogue is required for one of the stupidest reasons I can think of; in the endgame, there are points where you need to use specific quest items to continue, and one of the items you need to use can only be used by a rogue.)

In general, I think thief classes don't really belong in CRPGs. (I would be inclined to not include them in tabletop games either; after all, the earliest version of what could be called Dungeons & Dragons, even before 1st edition, didn't originally include that class, I believe.)

Can Imoen equip Carsomyr (and other non-thief/mage equipment)? Can Imoen brew potions and scribe scrolls?

The answer, in both cases, is "no", but Jan can (eventually) do those things. Since they come from thief levels, I would consider those things to be thief tasks. (One can argue that Scribe Scroll should be a mage thing, but unfortunately the developers decided to give that ability to thieves and not mages for some reason.)

I am talking about "thief-wise", not HLAs. Those things are not thief tasks. Even so, why would you give Jan Carsomyr? Why would you need to brew potions or scrolls when they are everywhere? Imoen is every bit as good as Jan for thief duties, period.

Brandishing a two handed great sword is not a thief skill. Brewing potions and creating scrolls are not thief skills. I'm not interested in any other game or any other skill, my point to the OP was, and is, that Imoen is every bit as good at *thieving* skills as Jan Jansen.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm done.

PS: Keep pressing that de-rep button.

*shrug* This is a subjective opinion. I happen to like their inclusion, especially how some areas are loaded with them, while others are not. It adds a lot of flavor to certain areas, and it helps dungeon crawls feel more like dungeon crawls with variety beyond "kill monsters".

Your Syoban example applies just as readily to this game, since traps aren't randomized. A bonus is that not all of the traps in this game are instantly fatal (quite the opposite).

Okay.

Again, your subjective opinion. I think they very much do belong, and they fulfill a common fantasy archetype. An archetype that I, for one, would miss.

Holding Carsomyr is not a Thief function, it is a Paladin function that thieves can eventually learn to imitate. Carsomyr is powerful, but it doesn't bring anything to the table that Imoen can't also do. Holding other non-thief, non-mage gear is also not a thief function, but a function of the classes that can normally equip such gear, and one that thieves can learn to imitate.

Alchemy can only brew a few different potions, all of which can easily be bought in quantity in the game. The one exception is the Rogue's Potion of Frost Giant Strength, which is strictly worse than a standard Potion of Frost Giant Strength. Several of these potions can be duplicated by spells.

All of the scrolls are spells that Imoen can cast without wasting a HLA slot.

Turns out that that potion is not strictly better than the standard one, particularly if you happen to have Imoen and Jan (or Haer'dalis instead of Jan) in the same party.

Without glitches: If you happen to have someone who dual-classed away from thief (like Imoen or Nalia), they won't be able to drink the standard potion, but can drink the rogue's potion. Furthermore, a player might opt to choose Alchemy before Use Any Item, and hence be able to make the rogue's potion, but not be able to drink the standard one (assuming the character isn't multi or dual classed with fighter).

With glitches: The item swap glitch allows any party member to drink any potion; however, this does not apply to clones. Hence, while Imoen can drink the standard potion, her simulacrum can't. (This also applies to projected images, though such potions are less useful in that case, since projected images can't easily attack.)

It's also worth noting that potions are instant cast, unlike similar spells. (There's still the 6 second cooldown after drinking it, but the character can still move or make physical attacks during that time.) Also, item use can't be disrupted the way spellcasting can.

There are two other key differences here:
1. Syoban Action is all about traps; if you were to remove them from the game, there would be no point. It would be like removing both combat and dialog from BG2; without either of them, what would the point be?
2. In Syoban Action, there is no "disarm traps" skill. You actually have to deal with each trap. (For example, if there's an invisible coin block in an evil spot above a pit, you can reveal the block, then use it as a stepping stone.) On the other hand, if you're playing BG2 with a thief, you get a universal (or near-universal) skill for dealing with traps.

Incidentally, I can think of one trap I encountered in BG2 that felt like it would belong more in Syoban Action: In the level of Spellhold where you get Imoen, there is a crushing trap. When I first got there, I decided to use the Wizard Eye spell to explore and map out this floor (sounds like a reasonable strategy, right?). I took the eye into that trap, the trap crushed the eye, and for whatever reason, the game decided that my main character died and gave me a game over. (Maybe that trap was marked as a gaze attack, even though it clearly didn't look like one?)

This reminds me of one thing Syoban Action does better than BG2 that they should have fixed in the EE but didn't: In Syoban Action, when you die, it is clear what killed you. In BG2, this is often not the case, and you can't even check the combat log after death to see what killed you. Hence, in Syoban Action, it's easy to learn from your deaths (and the game wouldn't work if you couldn't), but in BG2, it isn't, which can easily become quite frustrating.

Fine. Someone who dual-classed away from thief might be able to use the manufactured potion but not the normal one. Thieves can use it for a better melee attacks or to carry stuff. Anyone else who needs to increase their strength has other options to accomplish the objective driving the need.

You can cheat the game. You could also use cheat codes to accomplish similar effects.

So?

1. So BG2 has more elements than Syoban Action.
2. By your own admission, both games require you to deal with each trap. BG2 has multiple options.

To be honest, I feel like having a universal trap removal option cheapens the purpose of traps.

It would be better, IMO, if every trap had to be dealt with a specific way, and that you couldn't just have one class disarm every (or almost every) single trap you run across. There are certainly spells that look like they should be able to deal with traps (Dispel Magic (which unfortunately can't actually be used this way in BG2), Summon Monster), spells that would protect you from traps, and spells that might let you bypass them (polymorph teleporting, Dimension Door if you're actually playing BG1 or IWD1), but if you have a thief who can just disarm traps, they become less interesting.

With that said, it would help if there were some way to get some clues about the nature of a trap before you spring it, so that you can know how to defend against it. Something like the CALFO spell from classic Wizardry would work well for this purpose, and perhaps thieves should be able to do this (though requiring a Detect Magic cast to get the details on magic traps might be interesting), but they fall short of eliminating the trap entirely.