It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
Baldur's Gate seriesSome criticisms about character creation(33 posts)(33 posts)
(33 posts)
Pages:
1
2
3
This is my favourite topic
Posted June 30, 2015
avatar
dtgreene: The first two points apply to all Infinity Engine games except maybe Planescape: Torment.

1. When creating characters, you have to choose your character's stats. The problem is that, once you choose your stats, they are set in stone. (This is in contrast to games like Wizardry and Bard's Tale, where your stats can increase and eventually max out as you level up.) This means that, if you are unfamiliar with the game and happen to choose badly, there is no fixing without starting a new game or using a cheat program. (Original Icewind Dale is slightly better in this regard because you can at least delete the character, create a new one, and use the cheat console to give the character an appropriate amount of experience, but that still involves a cheat.)
I am pretty sure this is true for every RPG. What is the point of stats if you can change them on a whim to suit every situation?

I've never played an RPG where you can "fix" your character as if starting again from scratch. Choices and consequences are a big part of RPG. To suggest that choices not have consequences, I don't agree with that at all.
avatar
dtgreene: 2. Weapon proficiencies. Basically, at character creation, you need to choose what types of weapons your character is good with. This essentially locks your characters into a specific type of weapon, and that decision has to be made before you know what types of weapons are in the game. How do you choose between Mace and Flail when you don't know that the Flail of Ages exists? Bad proficiency selection can eventually be fixed, but it requires reaching rather high levels.

Essentially, the game requires new players to make permanent decisions uninformed. I consider that to be bad game design.
Again, choices have consequences simple as that. That is good game design.

If you find a weapon you want a character to use, then you keep that in mind amd choose the proper proficiency point next time.

It's like real life: if you discover a new interest, set a new goal, and work toward it. A character finds an awesome new weapon that they want to use? They train at it, and then eventually they will be able to use that weapon effectively.

In Baldur's Gate, or any great RPG, you set goals, you make decisions, you accomplish things, you grow as person. If you don't like that, then don't play any more RPGs.
avatar
dtgreene: The third is specific to Baldur's Gate 2. (Haven't played through 1 because the game is not fun at low levels.)

3. You can only create one character (without using multiplayer, which doesn't seem to work with WINE). For the rest of your party, you are stuck with the available NPCs, and the class distribution is not balanced. Among the interesting setups that are not available in NPCs are Figther/Thieves, Thieves that can gain Thief levels, Fighter/Mages, and triple classes. Also, the only Bard isn't the most accessible and has poor singing skills, and the only Paladin doesn't get most of the Paladin abilities. Thing is, I don't want to use one of them as my main character, but still want to play with one. Even worse, Baldur's Gate 2 added three classes based on the then not yet released 3rd Edition D&D, but yet those classes are only available to the main character. Why can't I try both Monk and Sorcerer in the same playthrough?
You can create multiplayer game and make two or more characters and play by yourself.
Posted June 30, 2015
avatar
doady: I am pretty sure this is true for every RPG. What is the point of stats if you can change them on a whim to suit every situation?

I've never played an RPG where you can "fix" your character as if starting again from scratch. Choices and consequences are a big part of RPG. To suggest that choices not have consequences, I don't agree with that at all.
Actually, I can think of 3 examples right away:
1. Wizardry: In this game, when you level up, your stats have a 75% chance of changing, and each stat is (assuming the character is still relatively young) more likely to go up than down. Hence, after enough levels, your stats will max out, regardless of what they were originally.
2. Bard's Tale: When you level up, a random stat (but never one that's maxed out) increases by 1. It may take a while (especially if the character isn't a spellcaster), but eventually all stats will max out.
3. Might and Magic 2: There are many spots that can give you permanent stat increases, as long as the stat isn't too high. Even looking later in the series, at, say, World of Xeen, there are enough one-time permanent stat increases that your initial stats don't matter in the long run. (Interestingly, the Xeen case does have you make choices about your stats; it's just that the choices that matter more end-game tend to be those made later in the game.)

Another example is games like Exile and Avernum, where you get some stat points at character creation but get more through leveling up.

avatar
doady: Again, choices have consequences simple as that. That is good game design.

If you find a weapon you want a character to use, then you keep that in mind amd choose the proper proficiency point next time.

It's like real life: if you discover a new interest, set a new goal, and work toward it. A character finds an awesome new weapon that they want to use? They train at it, and then eventually they will be able to use that weapon effectively.

In Baldur's Gate, or any great RPG, you set goals, you make decisions, you accomplish things, you grow as person. If you don't like that, then don't play any more RPGs.
The problem is that training a new weapon might not be possible, or might take an unreasonable amount of time due to the way the leveling system works. To reach specialization with a new weapon type, you might need to gain as many as 6 more levels. That may not be possible (especially with BG1's low level cap), or it might take too long.

If you are going to have specific weapon skills, Wizardry 8's model is better. If you find a new weapon and want to be good at it, all you have to do is start using it. Even if you don't gain any levels, you will still gain proficiency with the weapon eventually. In other words, you still have to choose which weapons you are good at, but if you find a shiny new off-hand mace (Wizardry 8 has one), you have a chance of becoming decent at it, even if your level is already really high. In the Baldur's Gate series, once you get too close to the level cap, there's no chance.

The point I am making is that the Baldur's Gate series requires you to make major choices before you have the information to make them and doesn't provide a way to fix the mistakes a new player is going to make.

avatar
doady: You can create multiplayer game and make two or more characters and play by yourself.
Of course, this is assuming you can start a multiplayer game. Playing Baldur's Gate 2 (classic) on Linux via WINE, I have not been able to start one.
Posted July 07, 2015
I don't think the skill system is that hard to figure out if you've played other RPGs. Anybody who's played RPGs, be it D&D or an ARPG like Diablo knows a fighter type needs strength, a rogue needs dexterity and a mage needs intelligence.

avatar
dtgreene: I disagree. Other game designers can learn from the flaws (and merits) of any specific game. Also, modders could attempt to fix some of the flaws.

I actually consider Baldur's Gate to be part of a shift away from what I consider to be classic cRPGs. The real time with pause combat (which I consider to be worse than the turn based combat it replaced) is one example.
Well I fucking hate Turn Based combat in RPGs, but I agree with your first point.
Post edited July 07, 2015 by Punkoinyc
Posted July 07, 2015
avatar
Punkoinyc: Well I [swear] hate Turn Based combat in RPGs, but I agree with your first point.
I have the opposite view: I consider Turn Based combat to be one of the defining aspects of an RPG: If you don't have (at least approximately) turn based combat in a game, I can't really consider that game to be an RPG.

Also, why did you have to use a swear word?

As for the stats: what use does Charisma have? Does my fighter need Intelligence or Wisdom? Does Intelligence affect the power of my spells? (Answer to that one is actually "no" in many games including the Infinity Engine games). What's the difference between 6 and 15 strength? (In some games, like Wizardry, the difference is zero.) For a mage, what's the difference between 16 and 18 Constitution? (Again, in Wizardry, 18 Vitality is helpful for a mage, but not here.)
Posted July 07, 2015
avatar
doady: I am pretty sure this is true for every RPG. What is the point of stats if you can change them on a whim to suit every situation?

I've never played an RPG where you can "fix" your character as if starting again from scratch. Choices and consequences are a big part of RPG. To suggest that choices not have consequences, I don't agree with that at all.
avatar
dtgreene: Actually, I can think of 3 examples right away:
1. Wizardry: In this game, when you level up, your stats have a 75% chance of changing, and each stat is (assuming the character is still relatively young) more likely to go up than down. Hence, after enough levels, your stats will max out, regardless of what they were originally.
2. Bard's Tale: When you level up, a random stat (but never one that's maxed out) increases by 1. It may take a while (especially if the character isn't a spellcaster), but eventually all stats will max out.
3. Might and Magic 2: There are many spots that can give you permanent stat increases, as long as the stat isn't too high. Even looking later in the series, at, say, World of Xeen, there are enough one-time permanent stat increases that your initial stats don't matter in the long run. (Interestingly, the Xeen case does have you make choices about your stats; it's just that the choices that matter more end-game tend to be those made later in the game.)

Another example is games like Exile and Avernum, where you get some stat points at character creation but get more through leveling up.
Yes, in those games, the stats change but they are minor changes . There is no reset button for stats in any RPG i know of that can undo major mistakes like you suggest, although I struggle to think what could be a major mistake in Baldur's Gate that would prevent you from being able to play the game. I don't see why you worry about this.

avatar
doady: Again, choices have consequences simple as that. That is good game design.

If you find a weapon you want a character to use, then you keep that in mind amd choose the proper proficiency point next time.

It's like real life: if you discover a new interest, set a new goal, and work toward it. A character finds an awesome new weapon that they want to use? They train at it, and then eventually they will be able to use that weapon effectively.

In Baldur's Gate, or any great RPG, you set goals, you make decisions, you accomplish things, you grow as person. If you don't like that, then don't play any more RPGs.
avatar
dtgreene: The problem is that training a new weapon might not be possible, or might take an unreasonable amount of time due to the way the leveling system works. To reach specialization with a new weapon type, you might need to gain as many as 6 more levels. That may not be possible (especially with BG1's low level cap), or it might take too long.

If you are going to have specific weapon skills, Wizardry 8's model is better. If you find a new weapon and want to be good at it, all you have to do is start using it. Even if you don't gain any levels, you will still gain proficiency with the weapon eventually. In other words, you still have to choose which weapons you are good at, but if you find a shiny new off-hand mace (Wizardry 8 has one), you have a chance of becoming decent at it, even if your level is already really high. In the Baldur's Gate series, once you get too close to the level cap, there's no chance.
Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Wizardry has a minor effect. Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Baldur's Gate has massive effect. The trajectory is the similar. Wizardry is merely finer grained that's all.

Remember, that only warrior classes can attain weapon specialization in the first place.

avatar
dtgreene: The point I am making is that the Baldur's Gate series requires you to make major choices before you have the information to make them and doesn't provide a way to fix the mistakes a new player is going to make.
What information? You want to know exactly what powerful magical weapons you will find beforehand? Aren't treasures supposed to be a surprise, just like in every other RPG?

Every weapon category is viable. There is not any category that is not a good choice. I don't understand why continue to fret so much about this.

avatar
dtgreene: As for the stats: what use does Charisma have? Does my fighter need Intelligence or Wisdom? Does Intelligence affect the power of my spells? (Answer to that one is actually "no" in many games including the Infinity Engine games). What's the difference between 6 and 15 strength? (In some games, like Wizardry, the difference is zero.) For a mage, what's the difference between 16 and 18 Constitution? (Again, in Wizardry, 18 Vitality is helpful for a mage, but not here.)
Charisma affects NPC reaction (convincing NPCs, getting better quest rewards, etc.). If the party leader (character in the first slot) has high charisma, it will reduce prices when shopping. A leader with high charisma will also increase the morale level of party members and reduce the chance of morale failure.

As for the other stats, you can find that info easily in the charts in the manual and all over the web. As I said before, you just need to look at the manual. I realize Baldur's Gate has a steep learning curve, but asking about very basic information here.

Generally, I think you should stop min-maxing the game just roleplay. Do you want to be smart? Then increase the intelligence. You want to be strong? Increase strength. RPGs don't have to be about powergaming. I personally never do that.
Post edited July 07, 2015 by doady
Posted July 07, 2015
avatar
doady: Yes, in those games, the stats change but they are minor changes . There is no reset button for stats in any RPG i know of that can undo major mistakes like you suggest, although I struggle to think what could be a major mistake in Baldur's Gate that would prevent you from being able to play the game. I don't see why you worry about this.
I wouldn't call the stat changes in Might and Magic: Darkside of Xeen minor. There's a fountain early on that lets you add +19 to every one of your characters' stats. When the starting stat range isn't that much different to that of Baldur's gate, I would call that a major change.

Also, in Might and Magic 2, many of the stat changes are of the form "if stat < 50, then stat += 10", which does indeed let you undo major mistakes. In fact, it's enough to fix your characters after triggering the event that sets all stats to 3 permanently.

Also, in Bard's Tale and Wizardry, characters will end up with 18 in all stats, so starting stats are not relevant in the long run. (And in Bard's Tale 1 and 2, spellcasters reach that point easily thanks to the class change mechanic. (3 raised the stat cap to 30.))

avatar
dtgreene: The problem is that training a new weapon might not be possible, or might take an unreasonable amount of time due to the way the leveling system works. To reach specialization with a new weapon type, you might need to gain as many as 6 more levels. That may not be possible (especially with BG1's low level cap), or it might take too long.

If you are going to have specific weapon skills, Wizardry 8's model is better. If you find a new weapon and want to be good at it, all you have to do is start using it. Even if you don't gain any levels, you will still gain proficiency with the weapon eventually. In other words, you still have to choose which weapons you are good at, but if you find a shiny new off-hand mace (Wizardry 8 has one), you have a chance of becoming decent at it, even if your level is already really high. In the Baldur's Gate series, once you get too close to the level cap, there's no chance.
avatar
doady: Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Wizardry has a minor effect. Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Baldur's Gate has massive effect. The trajectory is the similar. Wizardry is merely finer grained that's all.

Remember, that only warrior classes can attain weapon specialization in the first place.
Actually, that's not the only major difference. In modern Wizardry (by which I am specifically referring to Wizardry 6, 7, 8, but not the older ones or Japanese spin-offs), you do not need to level up to get skill in a new weapon. Instead, all you need to do is equip the weapon and actually practice using it. Your attacks will be inaccurate at first, but after a while you will become reasonably effective with the weapon. Contrast that to Baldur's Gate, where the only way to gain proficiency in a new weapon type is to level up (and whether you've ever used the weapon before hand doesn't matter).

Imagine if Baldur's Gate was changed so that you could get a star in a weapon type or combat style by using the weapon in real combat (that is, against a hostile creature) 100 times. (The number might need tweaking after playtesting, of course) Then it would be more like Wizardry. (Note that the usual limits on the number of stars you can get in a proficiency would apply, and perhaps Fighters might need minimum levels to go past specialization. To continue the analogy, maybe the only way to improve a weapon past a certain point would be by use, as in Wizardry 8.)

The problem with the approach Baldur's Gate uses is that the only way to get proficiency is to gain levels (and there's a limit to the number you can gain) and there is no reason to use the weapon before than. Wizardry 6-8, on the other hand, encourage you to actually try using the weapon, and you will eventually become good with it without having to gain any levels. This is especially nice when level ups become scarce.
Posted July 07, 2015
avatar
dtgreene: The problem is that training a new weapon might not be possible, or might take an unreasonable amount of time due to the way the leveling system works. To reach specialization with a new weapon type, you might need to gain as many as 6 more levels. That may not be possible (especially with BG1's low level cap), or it might take too long.

If you are going to have specific weapon skills, Wizardry 8's model is better. If you find a new weapon and want to be good at it, all you have to do is start using it. Even if you don't gain any levels, you will still gain proficiency with the weapon eventually. In other words, you still have to choose which weapons you are good at, but if you find a shiny new off-hand mace (Wizardry 8 has one), you have a chance of becoming decent at it, even if your level is already really high. In the Baldur's Gate series, once you get too close to the level cap, there's no chance.
avatar
doady: Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Wizardry has a minor effect. Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Baldur's Gate has massive effect. The trajectory is the similar. Wizardry is merely finer grained that's all.

Remember, that only warrior classes can attain weapon specialization in the first place.
Wizardry has 100 points for each weapon category, BG (iirc - haven't played it for ages) 5 at most. So you can't compare this one-to-one. You gain those points quite fast in Wizardry, though.

Everything else has dtgreene already explained.

personally, BG1 was my first CRPG and I was fascinated as a teen by it. Today I don't play (A)D&D-CRPG's anymore, because I think their rules don't fit into a CRPG. They are simply too rigid and inflexible. I think this is one point where Wizardry really shines, the mix of gaining proficiency by gaining xp and using the skills just works very good.
Post edited July 07, 2015 by Looger23
Posted July 12, 2015
avatar
dtgreene: The point I am making is that the Baldur's Gate series requires you to make major choices before you have the information to make them and doesn't provide a way to fix the mistakes a new player is going to make.
avatar
doady: What information? You want to know exactly what powerful magical weapons you will find beforehand? Aren't treasures supposed to be a surprise, just like in every other RPG?

Every weapon category is viable. There is not any category that is not a good choice. I don't understand why continue to fret so much about this.
How do I know that every weapon category is viable before playing the game?

It's not that I don't want to know the exact magical weapons that I find, but rather that I want to be able to actually use the weapons I do find. Maybe I find a weapon that significantly heals the user when hitting an enemy, but because I happen not to have put points into, say, clubs, no-one in my party can actually use the weapon decently. (I am not referring to any actual weapon in the game here.)

avatar
dtgreene: As for the stats: what use does Charisma have? Does my fighter need Intelligence or Wisdom? Does Intelligence affect the power of my spells? (Answer to that one is actually "no" in many games including the Infinity Engine games). What's the difference between 6 and 15 strength? (In some games, like Wizardry, the difference is zero.) For a mage, what's the difference between 16 and 18 Constitution? (Again, in Wizardry, 18 Vitality is helpful for a mage, but not here.)
avatar
doady: Charisma affects NPC reaction (convincing NPCs, getting better quest rewards, etc.). If the party leader (character in the first slot) has high charisma, it will reduce prices when shopping. A leader with high charisma will also increase the morale level of party members and reduce the chance of morale failure.

As for the other stats, you can find that info easily in the charts in the manual and all over the web. As I said before, you just need to look at the manual. I realize Baldur's Gate has a steep learning curve, but asking about very basic information here.

Generally, I think you should stop min-maxing the game just roleplay. Do you want to be smart? Then increase the intelligence. You want to be strong? Increase strength. RPGs don't have to be about powergaming. I personally never do that.
The thing with the whole "roleplay" element is that I have never seen it discussed with earlier cRPGs. (The 'c' here means computer, so I am not considering table top RPGs here, which have different characteristics.)

There's also the whole reason I am into the RPG genre in the first place: I actually like optimizing my characters for different roles. Unlike some people, I actually like the math in RPGs, and math in general. I also like the fact that turn-based RPGs focus on the player's intelligence, not her dexterity.

Also, I like using abilities and items with interesting behavior, provided that they are at leat viable.

By the way, why does Baldur's Gate 2 not have any useful cursed items? (Or at least none I am aware of)
Posted July 13, 2015
Well as for stats not increasing, it is a 2nd edition D&D game after all. I had trouble at first, made a new character after hitting Nashkel, but by then I knew what I was doing.
Posted July 18, 2015
avatar
doady: Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Wizardry has a minor effect. Gaining a new point in a weapon skill in Baldur's Gate has massive effect. The trajectory is the similar. Wizardry is merely finer grained that's all.

Remember, that only warrior classes can attain weapon specialization in the first place.
avatar
Looger23: Wizardry has 100 points for each weapon category, BG (iirc - haven't played it for ages) 5 at most. So you can't compare this one-to-one. You gain those points quite fast in Wizardry, though.

Everything else has dtgreene already explained.

personally, BG1 was my first CRPG and I was fascinated as a teen by it. Today I don't play (A)D&D-CRPG's anymore, because I think their rules don't fit into a CRPG. They are simply too rigid and inflexible. I think this is one point where Wizardry really shines, the mix of gaining proficiency by gaining xp and using the skills just works very good.
So you will not play Might and Magic, Fallout, Arcanum, Divine Divinity, etc. either? There is not any choice left if you want both XP and constant skill increase. Basically what you are saying is you don't like RPGs.

Honestly, I think both gaining skill from XP and use is redundant. Using skills should already give XP. That is exactly what XP and levels represents. Constant skill increase in Betrayal at Brondor and in Antara make sense because there is no XP.

Anyways, I don't see what is inflexible about BG compared to Wizardry. Both case, you cannot undo skill gain to put into another skill. You devote time to a skill, you can lose time to a skill. The rate of skill progress is the same. Wizardry is merely finer grained.

AD&D in a BG is a bad system, but it has nothing to do with weapon proficiency. AD&D's suckage has more to do with:
- negative THAC0 being better
- negative AC being better
- AC never improving
- ranged weapons being way overpowered (especially at low levels)
- wizards being way overpowered (at high levels)
- the relative lack of non-combat skills
- thief skills being based on percentage points

If you want to criticise the "rigidity" of Baldur's Gate, I think it makes far more sense to criticize the extremely strict class-based system. Why can't a fighter see traps at all? Why can't a mage use a short sword? That is what you should complain about. To complain about weapon skill system makes no sense when it is so similar to almost every other game, and has a very minor effect on the outcome of character compared to choosing a class. Unless the character is a warrior class, they can't put more than ONE point into a weapon skill anyways...
Post edited July 18, 2015 by doady
Posted July 19, 2015
avatar
doady: Honestly, I think both gaining skill from XP and use is redundant. Using skills should already give XP. That is exactly what XP and levels represents. Constant skill increase in Betrayal at Brondor and in Antara make sense because there is no XP.

Anyways, I don't see what is inflexible about BG compared to Wizardry. Both case, you cannot undo skill gain to put into another skill. You devote time to a skill, you can lose time to a skill. The rate of skill progress is the same. Wizardry is merely finer grained.
There are some important differences that are worth noting. For one thing, level ups are limited in Baldur's Gate while XP requirements keep growing exponentially in Wizardry 8 (until integer overflow). In other words, you can't just get another level if you want to learn something new. On the other hand, Wizardry 8 lets you practice a new skill without gaining a level.

Another thing: In Baldur's Gate, there is no reason to using a new weapon type before you gain proficiency. In Wizardry 6-8 (let's remember that Wizardry 1-5 worked differently), equipping a new weapon type would allow you to gain proficiency (at the expense of fighting poorly in the short term). One consequence is that, in Baldur's Gate, if you want to learn a new weapon type late game, you can't, whereas in Wizardry 6-8, you can without any difficulty (class permitting, of course).

A third thing to think about: In Baldur's Gate 2, a wizard with 749,999 experience is no better than one with 375,000 experience points. The problem is even worse with level 14 druids; a Druid at the Shadows of Amn XP cap (just under 3 million) is no better than one at just over half the cap (1.5 million). That is a long time to go without your character improving at all. With Wizardry 6-8's system, you can continue gaining skill increases, so a character about to reach level 11 is typically noticeably more powerful than one of the same class who just reached level 10.

One other problem with the weapon proficiency system is the lack of strategic differences between weapon types. Perhaps if blunt weapons were good against skeletal undead and axes against plant creatures (are there any?), that might help distinguish them. (In this case, blunt weapons should be one skill.) However, what's the difference between a long sword and a bastard sword? (In particular, if you have not played the game before, how would you choose between the two?)
Posted July 19, 2015
avatar
dtgreene: One other problem with the weapon proficiency system is the lack of strategic differences between weapon types. Perhaps if blunt weapons were good against skeletal undead and axes against plant creatures (are there any?), that might help distinguish them. (In this case, blunt weapons should be one skill.) However, what's the difference between a long sword and a bastard sword? (In particular, if you have not played the game before, how would you choose between the two?)
Wouldn't that compound your complaint even further? Because now not only do you have to pick a weapon that you don't know what's available, but monster placement throughout the game is also a factor to consider.

I can see it now

"How was I supposed to know I would mobbed by skeletons in the Trademeet sewers? If I had put points in skeleton killing weapons like flails instead of plant killing weapons like axes, I wouldn't be in this mess"

Oh, as for plant like creatures in BG, I think the closest you can get are dryads and barrels
Post edited July 19, 2015 by IwubCheeze
Posted July 19, 2015
What concerns stats and stat rolling, I just pretend to be super-lucky with rolls and hex-edit all my stats to 18(/00). Probably need to do same with companions but there are some bugs like missing profficiency points, etc. (fixed by Gibberlings patch), so you need to fix a lot of stuff...

Thus I enjoyed Icewind Dale more than BG, as you can make full your party yourself (with 18 in all stats, no less).

You can do the same in BG too by starting game in multiplayer and then importing it to snigle-player, but you might miss on some story and side-quests.

Also there are stat tomes in BG1 and permanent HP reward iirc. You can keep reimporting that char (New Game style) to effectively have 25 in most stats (I think some stat doesn't have corresponding stat tome) and then even import such char to BG 2.
avatar
dtgreene: One other problem with the weapon proficiency system is the lack of strategic differences between weapon types. Perhaps if blunt weapons were good against skeletal undead and axes against plant creatures (are there any?), that might help distinguish them. (In this case, blunt weapons should be one skill.) However, what's the difference between a long sword and a bastard sword? (In particular, if you have not played the game before, how would you choose between the two?)
There are different damage resistances against weapon types, so there is definitely a difference between weapon types, it is simply not as much pronounced.

Bastard Swords (5 average damage) are clearly superior to Long Swords (4.5 average damage). Long Sword have better Speed stat, but Speed is irrelevant unless you try to exploit engine (hit and run "tactics"). For choosing proficiency, you need to know what is the highest "+" weapons available in game as some weapon types don't have proper high-end versions. Which is awful, as some creatures can be damaged only by high "+" weapons.

Absolute best fighting force in IE games - summons. They are far more useful than any high level fighter can be. You can send them to soak all Dire Charms, Disintegrations, various Area Effects and what not and block the path to your casters. If you need to interrupt casters, you abuse Insect Swarm. Enemy casters eventually gain so many shields and buffs that they became nigh invincible to melee damage (same goes for your casters, they get incomparably more survivability than fighters later on). Beholders, Mind Flayers and other high-end monsters basically demand you to tank them with summons and get melee the heck out of there.
Posted July 20, 2015
avatar
Sarisio: What concerns stats and stat rolling, I just pretend to be super-lucky with rolls and hex-edit all my stats to 18(/00). Probably need to do same with companions but there are some bugs like missing profficiency points, etc. (fixed by Gibberlings patch), so you need to fix a lot of stuff...

Thus I enjoyed Icewind Dale more than BG, as you can make full your party yourself (with 18 in all stats, no less).

You can do the same in BG too by starting game in multiplayer and then importing it to snigle-player, but you might miss on some story and side-quests.

Also there are stat tomes in BG1 and permanent HP reward iirc. You can keep reimporting that char (New Game style) to effectively have 25 in most stats (I think some stat doesn't have corresponding stat tome) and then even import such char to BG 2.
avatar
dtgreene: One other problem with the weapon proficiency system is the lack of strategic differences between weapon types. Perhaps if blunt weapons were good against skeletal undead and axes against plant creatures (are there any?), that might help distinguish them. (In this case, blunt weapons should be one skill.) However, what's the difference between a long sword and a bastard sword? (In particular, if you have not played the game before, how would you choose between the two?)
avatar
Sarisio: There are different damage resistances against weapon types, so there is definitely a difference between weapon types, it is simply not as much pronounced.

Bastard Swords (5 average damage) are clearly superior to Long Swords (4.5 average damage). Long Sword have better Speed stat, but Speed is irrelevant unless you try to exploit engine (hit and run "tactics"). For choosing proficiency, you need to know what is the highest "+" weapons available in game as some weapon types don't have proper high-end versions. Which is awful, as some creatures can be damaged only by high "+" weapons.

Absolute best fighting force in IE games - summons. They are far more useful than any high level fighter can be. You can send them to soak all Dire Charms, Disintegrations, various Area Effects and what not and block the path to your casters. If you need to interrupt casters, you abuse Insect Swarm. Enemy casters eventually gain so many shields and buffs that they became nigh invincible to melee damage (same goes for your casters, they get incomparably more survivability than fighters later on). Beholders, Mind Flayers and other high-end monsters basically demand you to tank them with summons and get melee the heck out of there.
Don't forget the Ctrl-8 cheat in Baldur's Gate 2 (and in the enhanced editions) that will give everyone 18's (and 18/00 strength even for non-warriors).

The it about needing to know the highest "+" weapons available is precisely the point I am making about weapon proficiencies. (Although, "+" isn't everything; some weapons have other useful properties.) If the proficiency decision weren't so permanent, or if the differences between weapon types were clear and obvious, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. (Example of a game with clear and obvious differences: Lords of Xulima, where Swords bleed (good for killing enemies faster), Maces stun (good for not letting the enemies act in the first place), and Axes wound (eventually making enemies completely nonthreatening).) If that can't be done, I think the game would be better without proficiencies: Give everyone proficiency and warriors the benefits of specialization and be done with it.

In Baldur's Gate 2, there is a shield that reflects beholder rays. For Mind Flayers, Protection from Magical Weapons will allow a mage to tank their attacks (whereas Mirror Image and Stoneskin will not).
Posted July 20, 2015
avatar
dtgreene: Don't forget the Ctrl-8 cheat in Baldur's Gate 2 (and in the enhanced editions) that will give everyone 18's (and 18/00 strength even for non-warriors).
Such things tend to flag you as cheater, so I try to avoid them. 18/00 for non-warriors doesn't fit game rules, it basically says Cheater all over it.

Though 25 in all stats you can get during normal gameplay :)) It just takes quite a time.
avatar
dtgreene: In Baldur's Gate 2, there is a shield that reflects beholder rays. For Mind Flayers, Protection from Magical Weapons will allow a mage to tank their attacks (whereas Mirror Image and Stoneskin will not).
Alternatively - Cloak of Mirroring. All in all it comes to the point that mages are best tanks in the game - either by their summons or by themselves. Tough lesson I first learnt from Davaeorn (first hints were from Tarnesh). And Throne of Bhaal takes it up to eleven and far-far beyond that :)
Pages:
1
2
3
This is my favourite topic
Community
Baldur's Gate seriesSome criticisms about character creation(33 posts)(33 posts)
(33 posts)