Posted April 09, 2014
Senteria
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Senteria Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2011
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deadpool223
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deadpool223 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2012
From United Kingdom
Posted April 09, 2014
reading this forum is making me kinda sad..
considering all anyone who logically proves each other wrong
gets insulted by purpl because he's 'superior' to us all and cannot be wrong.
online account to play MP does not count as DRm
online account to access single-player+MP and your internet drops for a second you get kicked off = DRM
same with starforce oh you have a disk rewriter, i won't launch your game sorry no problem. = DRM
limited installs = DRM
AOW 3 does not have any of this, hell the only DRM that my version of the game has is steam because I own AOW3 on steam
the account system allows me to play with the lovely people who own it on GOG.com that is the only reason they used an online account to ensure the entire community can play togethor not be separated by the service with which they purchased the game.
considering all anyone who logically proves each other wrong
gets insulted by purpl because he's 'superior' to us all and cannot be wrong.
online account to play MP does not count as DRm
online account to access single-player+MP and your internet drops for a second you get kicked off = DRM
same with starforce oh you have a disk rewriter, i won't launch your game sorry no problem. = DRM
limited installs = DRM
AOW 3 does not have any of this, hell the only DRM that my version of the game has is steam because I own AOW3 on steam
the account system allows me to play with the lovely people who own it on GOG.com that is the only reason they used an online account to ensure the entire community can play togethor not be separated by the service with which they purchased the game.
Post edited April 09, 2014 by deadpool223
Sh4d0w66-----lID
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Sh4d0w66-----lID Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2012
From Vatican City
Posted April 09, 2014
deadpool223: reading this forum is making me kinda sad..
considering all anyone who logically proves each other wrong
gets insulted by purpl because he's 'superior' to us all and cannot be wrong.
online account to play MP does not count as DRm
online account to access single-player+MP and your internet drops for a second you get kicked off = DRM
same with starforce oh you have a disk rewriter, i won't launch your game sorry no problem. = DRM
limited installs = DRM
AOW 3 does not have any of this, hell the only DRM that my version of the game has is steam because I own AOW3 on steam
the account system allows me to play with the lovely people who own it on GOG.com that is the only reason they used an online account to ensure the entire community can play togethor not be separated by the service with which they purchased the game.
What is the point of your post? you share nothing new. Like me, i have to repeat myself over and over again just because you have read the topic, made you sad and with all that you learned nothing. considering all anyone who logically proves each other wrong
gets insulted by purpl because he's 'superior' to us all and cannot be wrong.
online account to play MP does not count as DRm
online account to access single-player+MP and your internet drops for a second you get kicked off = DRM
same with starforce oh you have a disk rewriter, i won't launch your game sorry no problem. = DRM
limited installs = DRM
AOW 3 does not have any of this, hell the only DRM that my version of the game has is steam because I own AOW3 on steam
the account system allows me to play with the lovely people who own it on GOG.com that is the only reason they used an online account to ensure the entire community can play togethor not be separated by the service with which they purchased the game.
Well, i don't like to insult people, is just a fact. I just let you know that you are misinformed or stupid (like BKGaming, that guy is... damn... :)) ). Anyway, i don't expect from you or anybody else to accept or to understand that as long as you can not understand and accept the fact that ANY form of control access to copyrighted material is DRM, like requiring a serial number to use the copyrighted material that you own or having to give my consent to let them spy on my PC every time i want to play a online game (or LAN :D) by authenticating on their servers. This is a ethics problem and also a privacy problem but the biggest problem is that the game was intentionally crippled just to restrict the usage of the same game copy by multiple users (that is DRM) by not adding features like LAN, direct TCP/IP, over email (the developer has told us that the data required to be send over email from a use to another is too large. Lets be honest, it can not be larger than the size of a save file. That was another lie). Is that easy to understand all that, you really have to be stupid to just keep blabbering about how non-DRM this game is.
I want to note again that online multiplayer is NOT a service. World of WarCraft is ONLY online multiplayer and is a game, not a service. But lets presume (just to prove how fucked up peoples can be), that online multiplayer is "a service", than why does this games doesn't have a multiplayer mode that it is not "a service", like LAN or direct TCP/IP, if only online multiplayer is "a service" and the multiplayer that is not online is actually the game (ROFL, BKGaming, tell me more :))))) ). Is it because their DRM requires you to authenticate to their server and if the game would've had those modes (modes, not services) DRM would've been useless?
Plain logic doesn't do too much good here but, anyway, people have voted, this game has DRM: https://secure.gog.com/game/age_of_wonders_3#reviews=1
Post edited April 09, 2014 by EPurpl3
AstralWanderer
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AstralWanderer Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
From United Kingdom
Posted April 09, 2014
high rated
BKGaming: ...In multiplayer they are providing you a server that provides matchmaking, high scores and other online features... this is a service they provide to you for buying the game for free. They can discontinue this service at anytime or make you subscribe to it.
That service is currently compulsory - as long as no other forms of multiplayer are supported (and again, I will point out that previous versions of AoW offered multiplayer that didn't rely on such services, and which still work today as a result) then it qualifies as DRM, though multiplayer-only DRM. Singleplayer is DRM-free, yes, but GOG has promoted itself as 100% DRM-Free, not 50% DRM-free. So people here are perfectly entitled to challenge GOG's credentials, especially given their willingness to compromise on regional pricing to get AoW3 here.
If multiplayer is included in the game description, then it is a feature which consumers have as much legal entitlement to as single player. Your attempt to single it out as a "service" is both artificial and irrational.
Post edited April 09, 2014 by AstralWanderer
Senteria
GOG Café Admin
Senteria Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2011
From Netherlands
Posted April 09, 2014
If we look at the practical side of it without the whole philosophy:
If you paid for the game, you get access to multiplayer. If you got it illegally you can not. I would have to agree that it is a service as well to a certain degree. Basically you get the whole game you paid for and you can play multiplayer. It's not that big of a problem. Heck, I have not even touched the multiplayer and sunk hours and hours into it.
I can see the other side of the coin as well. It would have been better if they made the interface of the launcher:
A) Start the game
B) Start the game with multiplayer enabled
C) Options
D) Exit
And yeah, for multiplayer you need an internet connections. Surprising? No. It does not even take longer than 1 minute to make an account and use your key to unlock multiplayer. I'm sorry that you guys are upset and some of you rather wished this would not be released on GOG but I am damn glad it did. You see, on contrary to popular belief, I do think the developers cared. They put quite some effort in to make a GOG version of their game. They could have just released it as a steam exclusive. Instead they found a way around enabling both Steam and GOG players to play with each other.
If you paid for the game, you get access to multiplayer. If you got it illegally you can not. I would have to agree that it is a service as well to a certain degree. Basically you get the whole game you paid for and you can play multiplayer. It's not that big of a problem. Heck, I have not even touched the multiplayer and sunk hours and hours into it.
I can see the other side of the coin as well. It would have been better if they made the interface of the launcher:
A) Start the game
B) Start the game with multiplayer enabled
C) Options
D) Exit
And yeah, for multiplayer you need an internet connections. Surprising? No. It does not even take longer than 1 minute to make an account and use your key to unlock multiplayer. I'm sorry that you guys are upset and some of you rather wished this would not be released on GOG but I am damn glad it did. You see, on contrary to popular belief, I do think the developers cared. They put quite some effort in to make a GOG version of their game. They could have just released it as a steam exclusive. Instead they found a way around enabling both Steam and GOG players to play with each other.
Post edited April 09, 2014 by Senteria
BKGaming
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BKGaming Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2013
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torham
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torham Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2010
From United States
Posted April 09, 2014
Until they shutdown the multiplayer server, or when they have server downtime, or until they otherwise decide to remove your access.
You are not entitled to the last word, just stop replying to him when you are done. (You don't have to reply to this message either).
You are not entitled to the last word, just stop replying to him when you are done. (You don't have to reply to this message either).
Post edited April 09, 2014 by torham
BKGaming
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BKGaming Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2013
From United States
Posted April 09, 2014
low rated
DF1871: @BK-Gaming
I.License
Noadays many games can't be played without running one or more of those "services" , SP and MP alike and it's part of the business conditions that they can stop providing this service at any time...or anytime after date X.
According to the pure word of the law you're right...because i still own the license..but in practice and according to the sense of the law i own nothing because i can't use it without the service needed.
Furthermore otherwise limited licenses (or is the plural license too?) are quiet common too, like timelimited licenses for MMO's, Security Sofware,...
Which was my original point if a company blocks single player within a service then this is when we cry DRM because single player is not depended on a service to function. Unless your connecting directly, 9 times out of 10 you using either A) a companies servers or B) a third party service such as GameRanger or Tunggle. To provide you with ways to do this is again a developers choice when designing a game. I.License
Noadays many games can't be played without running one or more of those "services" , SP and MP alike and it's part of the business conditions that they can stop providing this service at any time...or anytime after date X.
According to the pure word of the law you're right...because i still own the license..but in practice and according to the sense of the law i own nothing because i can't use it without the service needed.
Furthermore otherwise limited licenses (or is the plural license too?) are quiet common too, like timelimited licenses for MMO's, Security Sofware,...
DF1871: II.Car Analogy
You said it yourself...cars should be deliverd in good order and if they're broken they should fix the issue the first time i report it, otherwise i can do with my car what i wish and here's the problem...at your example i can use the additional service...but if i don't use it or they stop providing it...it still can use my car and do with it wathever i wish.
But to use it as a analogy for PC-games...your example is inadequate...i have to use the service if i wan't to use my car and if they stop providing the service i can't use my car anymore...therefor i used the analogy car+electronical locked engine.
Your really trying to use a near impossible outcome to relate it to this issue. The car is your's and is not depended a service for you to drive it... the car (like single player) is not depended on one manufacturer or shop staying open. You can get a new engine, fix it yourself or take it somewhere else to fix the issue. You said it yourself...cars should be deliverd in good order and if they're broken they should fix the issue the first time i report it, otherwise i can do with my car what i wish and here's the problem...at your example i can use the additional service...but if i don't use it or they stop providing it...it still can use my car and do with it wathever i wish.
But to use it as a analogy for PC-games...your example is inadequate...i have to use the service if i wan't to use my car and if they stop providing the service i can't use my car anymore...therefor i used the analogy car+electronical locked engine.
DF1871: To point it out(again :)...the limitations for AoW3 aren't that harsh because one can at least play a nearly full functional SP without being forced to use the service...but..as soon as i am forced to use any kind of those "services" to make use of everything i bought/rented..it's DRM.
III.
At some point you asked...at wich terms we would accept AoW3 being DRM-free.
Option a.
AoW3 SP+at least one real MP-Mode(Several people can play simultaneously) without any need to use
a "service"...one or more optional "service"modes with control&observation+rewards like Highscorelist
Option b.
Different Editions..like a pure and cheaper SP-Edition, a (maybe more expensive) LAN-Edition that can be installed at up X-PC's at one time to play LAN,...
Assuming you bought the game... so even though you knew before hand that no such options was available (as written on GOG's page) and that you were getting a service your still going to claim this DRM rather than a bad design choice? If they had provided LAN or another form of direct connection and then locked that behind a service... I would be right there agreeing with you... I just don't in this case because you knew what was being provided. III.
At some point you asked...at wich terms we would accept AoW3 being DRM-free.
Option a.
AoW3 SP+at least one real MP-Mode(Several people can play simultaneously) without any need to use
a "service"...one or more optional "service"modes with control&observation+rewards like Highscorelist
Option b.
Different Editions..like a pure and cheaper SP-Edition, a (maybe more expensive) LAN-Edition that can be installed at up X-PC's at one time to play LAN,...
DF1871: PS: Several times...you used the argument "it just common nowadays that at least the MP-Mode it controlled&observed and that you need services X+Y to make use of it. Sure..you're right..it's quite common, like DRM,...but..isn't this the reason Gog was created...to offer the uncommon...games without DRM, controls and observation...
If i had the choice...well...it's very presumably that i would have created a Thriumph-Account because several of my friends that love games like AoW too live in different countrys and we barly manage to meet twice a year.
We probaby would use the service to play via internet...but there's no choice...that's what DRM is about...taking you the chance to decide..forcing you...well and thats it...if they offer AoW SP+MP as combined content at Gog, the Site for DRMfree games, i expect a game that has a SP and a real MP-Option that can be played without being forced to use one of that services.
Understand me right...i knew that several other games at Gog have restrictions for Online-MP but all i own myself have at least TCP/IP and/or LAN as a DRM-free Option and this way it really feels like an service, i can decide if i wan't to use that additional service, trading some of my freedom for luxury, i did it for several games (selling a part of my soul for bread&games:)..the impoartant point is...i decide.
It's not common nowadays... it how it's always been since multiplayer started. When ever a company uses there servers to connect you with other people you are using a service. DRM is not about choices, it's about controlling digital software from being pirated. Since multiplayer is being controlled at a server level, there not actually controlling or restricting the digital software at all. This is not DRM. If i had the choice...well...it's very presumably that i would have created a Thriumph-Account because several of my friends that love games like AoW too live in different countrys and we barly manage to meet twice a year.
We probaby would use the service to play via internet...but there's no choice...that's what DRM is about...taking you the chance to decide..forcing you...well and thats it...if they offer AoW SP+MP as combined content at Gog, the Site for DRMfree games, i expect a game that has a SP and a real MP-Option that can be played without being forced to use one of that services.
Understand me right...i knew that several other games at Gog have restrictions for Online-MP but all i own myself have at least TCP/IP and/or LAN as a DRM-free Option and this way it really feels like an service, i can decide if i wan't to use that additional service, trading some of my freedom for luxury, i did it for several games (selling a part of my soul for bread&games:)..the impoartant point is...i decide.
Maybe it's because I have been both a console and PC gamer for since the 90's that I can understand that companies don't have to provide LAN and other features. On PC I agree LAN /Direct connection is common but it's not DRM to not have that...
AstralWanderer: That service is currently compulsory - as long as no other forms of multiplayer are supported (and again, I will point out that previous versions of AoW offered multiplayer that didn't rely on such services, and which still work today as a result) then it qualifies as DRM, though multiplayer-only DRM.
Singleplayer is DRM-free, yes, but GOG has promoted itself as 100% DRM-Free, not 50% DRM-free. So people here are perfectly entitled to challenge GOG's credentials, especially given their willingness to compromise on regional pricing to get AoW3 here.
DRM is about controlling and restricting digital software to prevent piracy. Online multiplayer is controlled at a server level... please tell me how there controlling and restricting the digital software if multiplayer is DRM? Singleplayer is DRM-free, yes, but GOG has promoted itself as 100% DRM-Free, not 50% DRM-free. So people here are perfectly entitled to challenge GOG's credentials, especially given their willingness to compromise on regional pricing to get AoW3 here.
No you don't, this is why it pays to read Terms of Service... your entitled to it as long as it's provided, and until someone challenges this in a court of law that is how it will be.
Post edited April 09, 2014 by BKGaming
AstralWanderer
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AstralWanderer Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
From United Kingdom
Posted April 09, 2014
No it hasn't and AoW1 and AoW2 are examples of this. They don't require an account and they don't require a Triumph-maintained server (which is only likely to be affordable from AoW sales for the next couple of years). If you really have been into PC gaming since the 90s, then you should be well aware of other examples too (Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, CivNet, Mechwarrior, Command and Conquer, Masters of Orion, Dominions, Space Empires) which can still be used, though in some cases requiring IPX emulators like Kali.
BKGaming
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BKGaming Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2013
From United States
Posted April 09, 2014
low rated
AstralWanderer: No it hasn't and AoW1 and AoW2 are examples of this. They don't require an account and they don't require a Triumph-maintained server (which is only likely to be affordable from AoW sales for the next couple of years). If you really have been into PC gaming since the 90s, then you should be well aware of other examples too (Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, CivNet, Mechwarrior, Command and Conquer, Masters of Orion, Dominions, Space Empires) which can still be used, though in some cases requiring IPX emulators like Kali.
You totally lost was was said there... whenever you connect online to a companies server to access multiplayer this has always been a service since multiplayer started. That was what I was referring to in a reply to what DF1871 stated.Post edited April 09, 2014 by BKGaming
AstralWanderer
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AstralWanderer Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
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Posted April 09, 2014
BKGaming: DRM is about controlling and restricting digital software to prevent piracy. Multiplayer is controlled at a server level... please tell me how there controlling and restricting the digital software if multiplayer is DRM
Server level DRM is what systems like Steam, Uplay or the late, lamented (or should that be lamentable?) GFWL operate. The one difference here is that AoW3 is partially locked down (multiplayer DRM) rather than fully. So you seem prepared to recognise the issue but just refuse to use the name. CD-keys are not in themselves DRM if they aren't subject to remote validation (many games only check keys locally against a known blacklist of warez keys) and given that NWN has been quoted as an example, its keys don't qualify as DRM since it is possible (and indeed now necessary) to connect via alternative servers as detailed in the Discontinued Gamespy support sticky.
Post edited April 09, 2014 by AstralWanderer
BKGaming
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BKGaming Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2013
From United States
Posted April 09, 2014
low rated
BKGaming: DRM is about controlling and restricting digital software to prevent piracy. Multiplayer is controlled at a server level... please tell me how there controlling and restricting the digital software if multiplayer is DRM
AstralWanderer: Server level DRM is what systems like Steam, Uplay or the late, lamented (or should that be lamentable?) GFWL operate. The one difference here is that AoW3 is partially locked down (multiplayer DRM) rather than fully. So you seem prepared to recognise the issue but just refuse to use the name. CD-keys are not in themselves DRM if they aren't subject to remote validation (many games only check keys locally against a known blacklist of warez keys) and given that NWN has been quoted as an example, it's keys don't qualify as DRM since it is possible (and indeed now necessary) to connect via alternative servers as detailed in the Discontinued Gamespy support sticky.
Post edited April 09, 2014 by BKGaming
AstralWanderer
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AstralWanderer Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
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Posted April 09, 2014
Eh? What Steam, etc do is verify your account with an online server. What AoW3 multiplayer does is verify your account with an online server. So the restriction/control mechanism is as near-as-darn-it identical from the consumer perspective - only the effects of failure (server down, etc) are more limited for AoW3.
BKGaming
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BKGaming Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2013
From United States
Posted April 09, 2014
low rated
BKGaming: Yes... the difference is those systems control the digital software which is what DRM is. This is not the same thing, the digital software is not being controlled or restricted at all here, your access to the server is which you're not entitled to anyway.
AstralWanderer: Eh? What Steam, etc do is verify your account with an online server. What AoW3 multiplayer does is verify your account with an online server. So the restriction/control mechanism is as near-as-darn-it identical from the consumer perspective - only the effects of failure (server down, etc) are more limited for AoW3. AOW3 (GOG version) does not have any of that at all. Trying to claim a server has DRM when you not even entitled to it goes it against what DRM actually is. DRM restricts and controls the digital software to prevent piracy, the GOG version of AOW3 does not do this. Not having access to a server for multiplayer doesn't control or restrict the actual digital software at all. You just don't have access to feature.
AstralWanderer
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AstralWanderer Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
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Posted April 09, 2014
BKGaming: Yes... the difference is those systems control the digital software which is what DRM is...
BKGaming: Not having access to a server for multiplayer doesn't control or restrict the actual digital software at all. You just don't have access to feature. PS: DRM isn't simply "piracy prevention" (especially since software pirates are the least likely to be affected by it) - it is more about maximising income from those who purchase software by ensuring they pay higher prices (by creating artifical scarcity), limiting usage (region locking) and forcing repurchase.