It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
I know that many of the chests in the game are level based and once you enter an area that chest level is set to your party level. I haven't played the game in years though and thought I might try grinding a little to see if I can get slightly better loot on occasion.

From searching it looks like the breakpoints are every 5 levels starting at 1, so 1, 6, 11 etc. What I can't find is how does the game determine your party level? Is it based on the highest character level in the party, the lowest, or an average. If an average, rounded up or down? I'd like to try waiting until 11 for some areas I usually hit pretty early and maybe 16 for some others but if my bishops are going to drag down my party level I think I'll restart without them for this particular playthrough.
No posts in this topic were marked as the solution yet. If you can help, add your reply
avatar
Outlandish: I know that many of the chests in the game are level based and once you enter an area that chest level is set to your party level. I haven't played the game in years though and thought I might try grinding a little to see if I can get slightly better loot on occasion.

From searching it looks like the breakpoints are every 5 levels starting at 1, so 1, 6, 11 etc. What I can't find is how does the game determine your party level? Is it based on the highest character level in the party, the lowest, or an average. If an average, rounded up or down? I'd like to try waiting until 11 for some areas I usually hit pretty early and maybe 16 for some others but if my bishops are going to drag down my party level I think I'll restart without them for this particular playthrough.
I believe that it's based on average party level, though to be sure, you would want to make sure that each character in your party is at the minimum level at least for the treasures.
Thanks.

I did look up the experience charts and it's not as bad as I thought it was though. Bishops are never more than one level behind hybrids; I thought it got worse than that. They can get 2 levels behind a specialist caster but only briefly so the only time they'd really drag the party level down is if it was 5 non-caster specialists with a 4 school bishop. I've never been patient enough to develop a 4 school bishop.

Despite that I decided that even if it's based on highest character level which would be ideal for me I don't enjoy bishops much anyway. Saving all my spell picks and grinding gold via alchemy gets old. I reworked the party with a Priest and Mage instead and I'll try out Power Cast on the Priest for the first time.
Post edited September 29, 2022 by Outlandish
avatar
Outlandish: Thanks.

I did look up the experience charts and it's not as bad as I thought it was though. Bishops are never more than one level behind hybrids; I thought it got worse than that. They can get 2 levels behind a specialist caster but only briefly so the only time they'd really drag the party level down is if it was 5 non-caster specialists with a 4 school bishop. I've never been patient enough to develop a 4 school bishop.

Despite that I decided that even if it's based on highest character level which would be ideal for me I don't enjoy bishops much anyway. Saving all my spell picks and grinding gold via alchemy gets old. I reworked the party with a Priest and Mage instead and I'll try out Power Cast on the Priest for the first time.
You can avoid level imbalances by just not leveling up faster leveling characters until slower leveling characters are ready to level up. In fact, I'll sometimes hold off on levenling up a character if the next level doesn't offer anything really interesting, particularly if the character is a fighter (or rogue, but I don't like using classes with stealth in this game).

I happen to really like Bishops in Wizardry 8. I actually enjoy using alchemy to raise money for spellbooks. Also, you really don't need to save spell picks for the character to be useful; in fact, my more recent(ish) playthroughs have been with a self-imposed restriction of *not* saving any spell picks for level 6 or 7 spells. It helps that not all the level 6 spells are that good (there's Quicksand and Resurrect, but the other spells are rather lacking), and that there's a lot of redundancy in level 7 spells (not to mention that Restoration is the only one not subject to spell resistance).

There's also the fact that higher level spells aren't that critical when they're first available, mainly because, no matter how high your skills are, you can't reliably cast them at higher power levels until your caster level catches up. By the time that caster level catches up, you will have had enough time to practice those skills so that you can actually learn them.
I do the same thing with my party. My Bard and Gadgeteer are never more than one level ahead of the specialist casters. I just hold off on leveling the Bard and Gadgeteer until the casters are ready to level, then everybody levels up together. This keeps enemy spawn levels down.
You might want to look into an MDP with 4 specialist casters. They level up pretty quickly, and are simple to develop (only one spellbook, no need to save spell picks). It's way more fun that way, having casters that can actually contribute from the beginning.
Last night, I made a lot of progress. I was able to kill the Juggernauts on AT Road in two rounds; The Mage's Asphyxiate killed all the visible ones in round 1, then fire magic wasted the others in round 2. This shows that, if all enemies are visible, an MDP like mine can kill everything in one round. And this was without Powercast.
avatar
RChu1982: ...
This keeps enemy spawn levels down.
The encountertables rarely cover every party level,
so even if a characters lvl increase brings the avg party lvl to the next integer,
the next entry in the encountertable may be still too high lvl to be triggered.
I.e. it only keeps spawn lvls down in a fraction of all cases.
avatar
RChu1982: ...
This shows that, if all enemies are visible, an MDP like mine can kill everything in one round. And this was without Powercast.
The game contains a substantial amount of enemies which are immune to instakill,
and a few others have sufficient hp along with high resistance that even 6 casters can not reliably finish them in 1 or 2 turns. (on expert difficulty)

TT:
The loot which has lvl sensors switched ON does not contain the unique stuff
that you can only get there, unless we are talking about some medium tier rarities.
But those are unlikely to be used by party for a long time bc better stuff spawns over the course of the game.
So if player likes to go fast through games,
i can only recommend to not care about level sensors and play straight through,
the lower revenue from selling loot can be compensated by mixing stuff to buy the ton of spellbooks a caster party "needs".
Post edited September 30, 2022 by townltu
avatar
RChu1982: You might want to look into an MDP with 4 specialist casters. They level up pretty quickly, and are simple to develop (only one spellbook, no need to save spell picks). It's way more fun that way, having casters that can actually contribute from the beginning.
I believe I actually did that once, though I'm pretty sure I *also* had a Bishop in that party.

As I've mentioned, these days, if I play Wizardry 8, I play with a self-imposed restriction of not saving Bishop spell picks for higher level spells, and that helps them contribute earlier. After all, only a small number of 6th and 7th level spells are that important (Quicksand/Ressurection for 6th level, Restoration and an instant death spell for 7th, then learn the damage spells at higher levels.)
Everybody seems to love Priests, Mages, and Alchemists, but the Psionic gets no love (probably because the Bard and Gadgeteer can cover some of his/her good spells: Slow, Haste, Insanity, Hypnotic Lure off the top of my head). But the Psionic has something nobody else has: Complete Immunity to mind control (Fear, Insanity, Turncoat). Also, having unlocked Iron Will first among the party, he will be resistant to everything (just unlocking Iron Will grants +5 to all resistances, the same as the Mage gets).
Consider a level 27 Human Psionic. Intelligence 100 (95 hard points +5 free points from the Trynton Well, no points wasted), Piety/Speed/Senses 100, Strength/Dexterity 45, Vitality 46 (he had an extra point left over after maxing Piety and Senses). Four attributes maxed, and four expert skills unlocked (Powercast, Iron Will, Snakespeed, and Eagle Eye). I challenge anybody to find a better stat spread for a caster.
Granted, I will give you that Bishops are a more "long run" character. It could be argued that Piety is unnecessary for a Bishop, unlike the specialist casters, due to having so many spells available (Iron Will is great though, no need for Element/Soul Shield every magic battle). What do you do with your Bishops? Intelligence 95 until Trynton Well, and Speed/Senses maxed first? It seems that Strength and Dexterity are near useless, as the Bishop should always have a spell to cast, and Vitality is unnecessary if you keep them out of melee range/cast Guardian Angel at them.
It could be argued that "kill all" spells are unnecessary (I only did that because Juggernauts are vulnerable to kill%). Things like Savant machines, once Powercast gets going, should be able to be killed with those "hit everybody on screen" spells (Falling Stars, Earthquake, Mind Flay, Nuclear Blast), combined with things like level 7 Fireball/Fire Bomb/Iceball supported by Powercast. I suppose it's a matter of picking the right realm (note that Rapax are vulnerable to kill all). Also, I'm playing on Novice difficulty to offset the fact that I'm always outnumbered by enemies.
avatar
RChu1982: Everybody seems to love Priests, Mages, and Alchemists, but the Psionic gets no love (probably because the Bard and Gadgeteer can cover some of his/her good spells: Slow, Haste, Insanity, Hypnotic Lure off the top of my head)..
But not Psionic Blast.

(Well, there *is* a gadget that casts that particular spell, but it's dummied out, as it doesn't appear anywhere, and making it requires an item that doesn't appear anywhere.)

Also, I wouldn't consider slow to be a good spell.
* When it works, it doesn't help nearly as much as a disabling spell like insanity would.
* Furthermore, when it works, it greatly slows down the enemy.

Also worth noting that Bard and Gadgeteer can cover many of the Priest's good spells, including Guardian Angel, Armorplate, Magic Screen, Superman, Heal All (both can, and there's even 2 of the instrument, not counting the other instrument that casts the spell that isn't actually obtainable in-game), and even Restoration. (Not Resurrection (though a dummied out gadget exists), but it's not too hard to get items that can cast that particular spell, and it's a spell that ideally you shouldn't need to be using constantly.)
avatar
RChu1982: Granted, I will give you that Bishops are a more "long run" character. It could be argued that Piety is unnecessary for a Bishop, unlike the specialist casters, due to having so many spells available (Iron Will is great though, no need for Element/Soul Shield every magic battle). What do you do with your Bishops? Intelligence 95 until Trynton Well, and Speed/Senses maxed first? It seems that Strength and Dexterity are near useless, as the Bishop should always have a spell to cast, and Vitality is unnecessary if you keep them out of melee range/cast Guardian Angel at them.
That's more or less the case, though I put extra points into Vitality once one of those stats maxes out.

Or, at least that's what I've done in the past, and what I'll continue to do if I want to focus on magic with the Bishop.

Some day, I want to try a different build, where I instead put an emphasis on Strength for melee damage. This could either be a pure build, or I could multi-class (perhaps to Lord?) after learning, say, X-Ray, and then I wouldn't need to have a dedicated Wizardry caster in the party. In other words, while Bishops are powerful casters, the class could just be used to cover some essential non-combat spells in a character whose focus is elsewhere. Remember, Bishops can equip basically everything that Priests can; their only drawbacks compared to Priests are slower leveling, lower HP, and no praying for miracles (but you still get Turn Undead).

(By the way, comparing Priest and Bishop reinforces my feeling that Priests really should have the same combat values that Bards and Gadgeteers have, rather than the poor values that other specialist casters get.)
Post edited October 01, 2022 by dtgreene
I forgot about Psionic Blast. That spell has saved me a lot of trouble, as it hits all enemies in the group, no matter where they are. Enemies that you can't see are very annoying.
I returned to Arnika, and cast Slow against a group of Savant Slashers. It made the battle last longer than it should have. The only use for it is to train the Psionic's Water realm (he/she only gets Paralyze, Cure Lesser Condition, and Slow in that realm). This is also why I sold the Bard's Slow instrument.
The Gadgeteer's Guardian Angel gadget is great, along with the Bard's Bless instrument. However, the Armorplate gadget is heavy, and Armorplate lasts long enough cast by the Priest (especially with Powercast unlocked) for it to be useless. Similarly with the Magic Screen instrument (which you have to basically steal).
What I found useless at this point, and sold:
Bard instruments: Sleep, Shrill Sound, Charm, Slow
Gadgeteer gadgets: Energy Blast, Terror, Hypnotic Lure (sounds good on paper, but sometimes, the enemies will wander out of range of spells, and sometimes even out of bounds; The sound is annoying too).
I only kept the Bard's Bless instrument, for now. I might keep the Haste instrument when I find it, even though everybody will max Speed soon (125 Speed is better than 100). I will definitely keep the Gadgeteer's Guardian Angel Gadget when I find it.
I have never used "Pray for miracle" or "Turn undead". There is only one rare case in the Lower Monastery, where you can encounter Undead Heads; Thankfully, I have never seen them in this party. If they did spawn, I would think that I would have been able to handle them with Web/Freeze Flesh/Silence (at least training some realm).
This is the same "why bother" approach that I have taken. Why bother with Strength and Dexterity for my Priest, when he is in the same group as the other casters? Why bother with Vitality for my Psionic and Mage, when their HP will always suck? This game rewards specialization, not evening out attributes. Getting expert skills is the name of the game, then the ignored attributes/skills.
Again, with my Psionic (100 Intelligence/Piety/Speed/Senses), I might as well just "even out" at this point. Every level up, Strength/Vitality/Dexterity get +2 points. None of these 3 will max out.
avatar
RChu1982: Similarly with the Magic Screen instrument (which you have to basically steal).
You're confusing that instrument with the Soul Shield instrument. The Magic Screen instrument is just found in Marten's Bluff, in (IIRC) the area with the idol at the end, making it reasonably easy to get once you reach that point (though you might very well have Haste and Heal All instruments by that point, although your level realistically might not be high enough to use the Heal All one).

avatar
RChu1982: This is the same "why bother" approach that I have taken. Why bother with Strength and Dexterity for my Priest, when he is in the same group as the other casters? Why bother with Vitality for my Psionic and Mage, when their HP will always suck? This game rewards specialization, not evening out attributes. Getting expert skills is the name of the game, then the ignored attributes/skills.
The idea behind raising Strength/Dexterity for a Priest is that the build is specializing in combat rather than trying to be the best Priest caster possible; unfortunately, this ends up not being ideal because Priests only get the combat values of the other mages, not the Bard/Gadgeteer values that IMO they should get. (I note that, in Wizardry 1-5, they get the same accuracy growth that fighter-types get, though they don't get extra attacks in 1-3 (4?), and they get extra attacks more slowly in 5.)

The Strength Bishop build I propose is part of a multi-class build, for parties that don't want to have full casters, but still need those important spells covered.

Speaking of expert skills, these characters would be getting some expert skills, though perhaps prioritizing Power Strike over Power Cast.

To put it another way, these characters are taking a specialization that are not typical of their class.
Post edited October 01, 2022 by dtgreene
I dislike class changing, particularly cheats (grinding Stealth to 100 while sleeping, etc.)
I have a template for non casters (Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Gadgeteer): Strength and Dexterity, then Speed and Senses. This unlocks Powerstrike and Reflextion early, while allowing for more swings and attacks later (Snakespeed and Eagle Eye)
Similarly with casters, Intelligence and Speed early (unlocks Powercast and Snakespeed), followed by Piety and Senses. This will make a caster as fast as possible, while also allowing them to hit with slings, and survive magic attacks (Eagle Eye and Iron Will).
There seems to be no need to make a character into what you deem to be a "worthy fighter", aka a Priest warrior, but do what you will.
avatar
RChu1982: I dislike class changing, particularly cheats (grinding Stealth to 100 while sleeping, etc.)
I find that multi-classing in Wizardry 8 is rather un-attractive, barring situations like 100 Stealth (which isn't actually a cheat, but it does involve a skill I dislike, and that I avoid having in my party because it can't be turned off). Hence, I like to try to find ways to make multi-classing useful, and this is probably the best use that I've come up with.

In the case of, say, Bishop/Lord multiclass, you get a character who can:
* Cast all the utility spells, including the ones from the Wizard list like X-Ray.
* Can fight somewhat decently, but not as well as a pure single-class character.
* Maybe isn't that good early on, however. Either you start as Bishop and get fewer HP, or you start as Lord and can't get Armorplate before leaving the monastery. (Not sure about Enchanted Blade and Missile Shield.)
* Can still eventually learn Resurrection and Restoration.
* Is definitely not as good as a single-class character at each role, but ideally should be good enough.

Other notes about this build idea:
* Focuses on Pirest and Wizard spellbooks, as those are the only ones that contain critical spells. (You could optionally learn, say, Chameleon. Probably not Haste, though, because it's a higher level splll.)
* Will need to learn spells from books before leaving Bishop for good.
* Will, for the most part, ignore spells that target enemies.
* If the party has a Mage or Samurai in it, much of the attraction of this build is lost, so it's mostly useful for party builds that can't fit one of those classes.
avatar
RChu1982: I have a template for non casters (Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Gadgeteer): Strength and Dexterity, then Speed and Senses. This unlocks Powerstrike and Reflextion early, while allowing for more swings and attacks later (Snakespeed and Eagle Eye)
Similarly with casters, Intelligence and Speed early (unlocks Powercast and Snakespeed), followed by Piety and Senses. This will make a caster as fast as possible, while also allowing them to hit with slings, and survive magic attacks (Eagle Eye and Iron Will).
Thing is, I do like to break away from templates and try different things. (Also, I don't really have a good gadgeteer template, anyway.)

My first playthrough, for example, I had a Strength/Intelligence Priest who I later made into a Lord (after learning Power Cast).

when I played my MDP, IIRC both the Priest and Alchemist got Power Strike, and I think the Psionic may have learned Eagle Eye.

There's also a couple build templates that work well that you seem to have ignored:
* Senses/Strength (or Dexterity?) for a ranged attacker, as Eagle Eye is really good here.
* Piety for a more survival-oriented Priest, one who can avoid status ailments and then cure allies of them. Speed can be ignored, since sometimes slower is preferable when it comes to Heal All. Not as practical for Alchemist, who doesn't get all the cures, or Psionic, who is immune to the status ailments that would be cured with Sane Mind.
avatar
RChu1982: There seems to be no need to make a character into what you deem to be a "worthy fighter", aka a Priest warrior, but do what you will.
Thing is, I really like hybrid builds, and so I like to include such characters in my party, rather than have every single character overspecialized.

One other thing: I've found Reflextion to be unnecessary; by the time the skill is learned, HP is high enough that getting hit isn't that big a deal, and Heal All (including from Bard/Gadgeteer) makes it easy to recover from damage.
Post edited October 02, 2022 by dtgreene