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Absolute_Dakka: Also aware of this, but I did it to become a lord, and when I changed alignment and then class to Ninja, I lost the extra Priest spell slots.
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dtgreene: In the NES version, you can avoid this loss of bonus SP by using a Coin of Power to change to ninja. (1 in 3 chance of success)

Just note that using it a second time will kill you and change you to a weak class.

Speaking of which, here is a method of using Coins of Power to increase your XP exponentially. (Prerequisites; should already be a high level, and having HAMAN or MAHAMAN is highly recommended.) Assuming you're starting from a basic class:
1. Use an unused Coin of Power to become a Samurai, Lord, or Ninja, (Ninja is ideal for this, if you're using save states or something.) (You can substitute a Thieves' Dagger or Metamorph Ring in this step.)
2. Get level drained on purpose. This will set your experience to the minimum needed for your new level. (This is where HAMAN or MAHAMAN are good, as they will cause a level drain. Just remember that you need to win the battle or run away for the XP change to occur; losing or teleporting away will not.)
3. Use a used Coin of Power to become a basic class. (Thief is ideal here; if you're playing in an environment where reloading is possible, but more of a pain, reload if you get Bishop, because that class levels much more slowly than the other possibilities.) The character will die.
4. Revive the character. The safest way is to use MAHAMAN, since that spell will never make the character's condition worse. But you might try DI or the Temple of Cant once first.
5. Your XP hasn't changed, and since you're in a fast leveling class, you qualify for a bunch of level ups.
6. Go back to step 1. Repeat until out of Coins of Power, or your level is as high as you want.

(If you're already in an advanced class, you'll need to start at step 3.)
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Absolute_Dakka: Ninja crits are not resisted in the same way
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dtgreene: They're still resisted based on level, with a mechanic similar to LAKANITO.

Again, just try to crit a fuzzball; it's not going to happen.
Ive monkeyed around with the level drain explots, but it was not neartly as fun or entertaining as killing the Arch Demon and his minions. He will sometimes summon Demon Lords, and so I would avoid killing him so he would summon more, and when I eventually got tired of kill his minions, kill him the XP award was gigantic... was much more fun for me.
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Absolute_Dakka: Yes and no, relying on the guantlets for Tiltowait falls off in reliability when facing top-level enemies. You have to fight them to kill them reliably, and iirc the full KOD set only gets you to -10 AC. Ninja will be harder to hit and crit more often. Plus, ninja can solo effectively with handling chests and traps.
Actually, it's -18 AC. The armor and shield alone are enough to reach -10. Add in MAPORFIC to get to -20.

A fighter will be a higher level than a ninja with the same XP, and therefore will have a better crit chance until the cap is reached (50% at level 25, and apparently not affected by multiple hits).

Thing is, 50% is not that good when you're strong enough to kill enemies in one hit 100% of the time with a stronger weapon. (Hrathnir is stronger than anything except Muramasa, and it does double damage to demons.) Furthermore, not all encounters will be with top-level enemies; sometimes, even on the bottom floor, you encounter hoards of not-quit-top-level enemies, and TILTOWAIT is helpful here. (And in versions not based on NES, unless you're currently a Mage, Bishop, or Samurai, you have at most 3 casts of that spell level, no matter what. (Well, unless you invoke a used Great Mage Wand, which will give you those 9 SP, but cause you to forget all spells, making them useless, and the benefit goes away at the next rest.)

(Also, it looks like if you manage to reach level 1,000, you can just open chests without fearing traps.)
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Absolute_Dakka: Also aware of this, but I did it to become a lord, and when I changed alignment and then class to Ninja, I lost the extra Priest spell slots.
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dtgreene: In the NES version, you can avoid this loss of bonus SP by using a Coin of Power to change to ninja. (1 in 3 chance of success)

Just note that using it a second time will kill you and change you to a weak class.

Speaking of which, here is a method of using Coins of Power to increase your XP exponentially. (Prerequisites; should already be a high level, and having HAMAN or MAHAMAN is highly recommended.) Assuming you're starting from a basic class:
1. Use an unused Coin of Power to become a Samurai, Lord, or Ninja, (Ninja is ideal for this, if you're using save states or something.) (You can substitute a Thieves' Dagger or Metamorph Ring in this step.)
2. Get level drained on purpose. This will set your experience to the minimum needed for your new level. (This is where HAMAN or MAHAMAN are good, as they will cause a level drain. Just remember that you need to win the battle or run away for the XP change to occur; losing or teleporting away will not.)
3. Use a used Coin of Power to become a basic class. (Thief is ideal here; if you're playing in an environment where reloading is possible, but more of a pain, reload if you get Bishop, because that class levels much more slowly than the other possibilities.) The character will die.
4. Revive the character. The safest way is to use MAHAMAN, since that spell will never make the character's condition worse. But you might try DI or the Temple of Cant once first.
5. Your XP hasn't changed, and since you're in a fast leveling class, you qualify for a bunch of level ups.
6. Go back to step 1. Repeat until out of Coins of Power, or your level is as high as you want.

(If you're already in an advanced class, you'll need to start at step 3.)
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Absolute_Dakka: Ninja crits are not resisted in the same way
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dtgreene: They're still resisted based on level, with a mechanic similar to LAKANITO.

Again, just try to crit a fuzzball; it's not going to happen.
Just want to make sure you are intending to use the example of a specific monster that has immunity to instakill effects as an example that you are using to assert that super-high level ninja crits are not more reliable than Lakanito.

Please clerify or confirm that is what you are trying to say here.
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Absolute_Dakka: Yes and no, relying on the guantlets for Tiltowait falls off in reliability when facing top-level enemies. You have to fight them to kill them reliably, and iirc the full KOD set only gets you to -10 AC. Ninja will be harder to hit and crit more often. Plus, ninja can solo effectively with handling chests and traps.
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dtgreene: Actually, it's -18 AC. The armor and shield alone are enough to reach -10. Add in MAPORFIC to get to -20.

A fighter will be a higher level than a ninja with the same XP, and therefore will have a better crit chance until the cap is reached (50% at level 25, and apparently not affected by multiple hits).

Thing is, 50% is not that good when you're strong enough to kill enemies in one hit 100% of the time with a stronger weapon. (Hrathnir is stronger than anything except Muramasa, and it does double damage to demons.) Furthermore, not all encounters will be with top-level enemies; sometimes, even on the bottom floor, you encounter hoards of not-quit-top-level enemies, and TILTOWAIT is helpful here. (And in versions not based on NES, unless you're currently a Mage, Bishop, or Samurai, you have at most 3 casts of that spell level, no matter what. (Well, unless you invoke a used Great Mage Wand, which will give you those 9 SP, but cause you to forget all spells, making them useless, and the benefit goes away at the next rest.)

(Also, it looks like if you manage to reach level 1,000, you can just open chests without fearing traps.)
As mentioned, point stands, super-level Ninja does not need to cast a spell or wear armor to have better AC.

Fighter using Wrathnir may be capped as you say,at 50% and regardless of hits, but I never claimed otherwise - my claim is that Ninja is better at it. I have direct empyrical experience with this over hundreds of hours fighting with a super high level ninja.

Feel free to disregard this if you wish, based on this conversation - I am not longer concerned with convincing you.
Post edited December 15, 2023 by Absolute_Dakka
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Absolute_Dakka: Fighter using Wrathnir may be capped as you say,at 50% and regardless of hits, but I never claimed otherwise - my claim is that Ninja is better at it. I have direct empyrical experience with this over hundreds of hours fighting with a super high level ninja.
First of all, the weapon's name is Hrathnir.

Secondly, a character with Hrathnir, or (in versions where it works properly) the Lord's Garb, will crit just as well as a same-level ninja.

Third, assuming sufficiently high level, the Hrathnir user will be doing more damage in the non-crit case, and therefore will have a better chance of actually killing the enemy.

Also, I don't know whether any enemies will be able to ht a character with -20 AC. (And casting MAPORFIC need only be done once per expedition.)

Do you have the same hundreds of hours experience with a super high level (45+ at least) Fighter or Lord? (Or, even better, a Muramasa wielding Samurai? No crits, but no need when you're capable of dealing 300+ damage per attack.)
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Absolute_Dakka: Fighter using Wrathnir may be capped as you say,at 50% and regardless of hits, but I never claimed otherwise - my claim is that Ninja is better at it. I have direct empyrical experience with this over hundreds of hours fighting with a super high level ninja.
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dtgreene: First of all, the weapon's name is Hrathnir.

Secondly, a character with Hrathnir, or (in versions where it works properly) the Lord's Garb, will crit just as well as a same-level ninja.

Third, assuming sufficiently high level, the Hrathnir user will be doing more damage in the non-crit case, and therefore will have a better chance of actually killing the enemy.

Also, I don't know whether any enemies will be able to ht a character with -20 AC. (And casting MAPORFIC need only be done once per expedition.)

Do you have the same hundreds of hours experience with a super high level (45+ at least) Fighter or Lord? (Or, even better, a Muramasa wielding Samurai? No crits, but no need when you're capable of dealing 300+ damage per attack.)
lol correcting spelling the last refuge of the hopelessly pedantic. Good for you!

And yes, I have thousands of hours with a maxxed level party including Lords and Samurai with all of the items and equipment mentioned, but really, even if I could prove this to you beyond the shadow of doubt - let's be honest, you'd keep trying to falsify it somehow, because you have to be *right*. And that's why its not worth talking to you further.

Learn to concede a point. Or don't. You do you, best of luck.
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CaldazarIL: The description of the LV8 Ninja is the same as the LV8 Priest.
Oops. Thank you for spotting this, it's in the list of pending fixes.