UniveralWolf suggested an interesting idea in a different thread. I've decided to try it out, but I'm uncertain of what my wizard build should be.

The idea is this: win without ever adding to your casting skill. A possible addition to this restriction is to win with the minimum amount of casting skill (which is actually zero!). A quick check confirms that you start the game with 2 points of casting skill for every spell book you start with. This means that an 11 book start gets 22 casting skill, while a 6 retort start gets 0 casting skill. The more books you start with, the easier it will be (to an extent).

The implications for a zero spell skill challenge:
-I'm pretty sure Impossible becomes exactly that: impossible. Your only feasible response to any enemy spells is normal units. Paladins are great, but they may have some trouble stopping Armageddon.
-Warlord becomes even better since your main source of power comes from normal units. Heroes are mainly supplements without the casting ability to create artifacts. Summons, of course, need some casting skill to emerge.
-Alchemy generates lots and lots of gold. No spell skill means no spells, which means you don't need mana and you don't really need research either (maybe for gifting for diplomacy? Nah). You'll have half of lots and lots of gold if you don't take alchemy. Sadly, Mana Focusing requires 4 books of one color, so you'd have to have a minimum of 8 spell skill to use it. Alchemy also gives magic weapons to all units you build, which is extra good here as well.
-Your starting race needs to be able to move quickly and without support. Lizardmen and Draconians seem to be the best for this, since both have decent early units available (javelineers and doom drakes) and don't have to worry about water. Slingers aren't so overpowered without support, and I'm not sure if they are fast enough. Gnolls are a possibility, since they are really fast out of the gate, but they may have some issues with water. With Alchemy, Trolls start to really look attractive, since you don't replace losses from battles you win. I'm not sure about most of the more civilized races. Maybe they'll make great slaves (once again) since mana and gold will be rolling in steadily after you get started.


I'll be playing on normal difficulty. I'm leaning toward a 6 retort build with Draconians. Fast, decent units, everything flies. A spearman and a wall can guard the city from most units. I'd like to hear suggestions, though.

Couldn't wait. I started a Wizard with Myrran, Warlord, Famous, Alchemy, Charismatic, and Channeler (needed to use both remaining picks), and I couldn't resist the troll regeneration. I figure half price heroes and mercenaries would serve me better than half price artifacts.

With my (comparatively) massive gold reserve and 10 starting fame, I've already picked up 3 heroes: Valana, Malleus, and Jaer. And after Malleus joined me, I realized I forgot something that might be essential: Heroes can contribute to casting skill! I feel like a bad master of magic now.

I have close to half a dozen magic spirits scouting for me now, and Jaer will soon be taking War Trolls on a world tour. So far, so good.

I like the idea of not really depending on magic but on impossible I cannot see choosing Channeler just to avoid picking magical tomes.

Also keep in mind Caster heroes only contribute their spell skill IF they are in your Fortress City at the end of your turn.

I am going to try on Impossible but my picks will be Myrran, Warlord, Famous, Alchemy, Charismatic and 2 Death Books. Hoping real hard to get Black Channels somehow to offset the cost of having an army of War Trolls.

EDIT: Changed the build by taking away Charismatic and going 2 Chaos & 1 Death Book. This way it's possible to get both Chaos/Black Channel for Flying War Trolls.

Things that occur to me:

1) I wouldn't worry about having zero casting skill. My only specification was that you lock the casting skill slider on it's lowest setting and leave it there the whole game, so you never allocate mana to increasing your CS.

2) The Spell of Mastery is probably out of the question, so you're going to have to destroy all your opponents outright.

3) You're probably going to want to win as fast as possible, and that means you'll want a race that increases rapidly...or trolls, like you guys have picked already. Barbarians might work too.

4) Artifact crafting is also out of the question (mostly anyway), so you're going to have to work with the ones you find/conquer/buy.

Good luck! I stuck with Normal difficulty to try this out, and I decided to take UW's suggestion to the extreme and go with zero casting skill because of it. That requires taking only retorts, which means I need to fill 11 picks with 6 retorts. Thus, Channeler.

As for casting heroes: My build leaves me with only arcane spells, so its not like I really need any casting skill after some magic spirits. If I need it, I'll pull a casting hero home to do my casting. Currently, everyone is out following war trolls around for experience; I'm not sure who I'll pull home long term for casting purposes. Valana boosts the War Troll attack, Jaer flies them places, and Malleus is providing quite a lot of ranged firepower (especially compared to the others). Bagthru, if he gets in trouble, will just have to deal with it; no recall hero for him! 1) I know; I just decided to try taking your idea to its extreme and see what happens. Years ago, when I played on the CD version (unpatched), you had a set casting skill (18-ish?) and your fortress just generated 5 mana or so, regardless of the number of spell books you had. I played a similar build then and enjoyed it, but aspects have changed since then.

2) I figure anything much above Detect Magic is out of reach. And even Detect Magic is stretching it a lot.

4) Heroes are basically support units for this. Keep them alive and in the back, since they won't become the engines of destruction custom artifacts can make them.

I did get a very nice luck bonus in finding a size 2 troll settlement right next to my capital, and it was undefended! I took it, and it grew to size 3 the following turn.

I can imagine that if you got some global spells up, it wouldn't be much of a problem maintaining them, since you'll probably have plenty of mana crystals. It would be a real annoyance to get one of those disjunction random events though - the one that dispels all overland enchantments.

Going with zero CS for the whole game is pretty extreme. You must not be able to cast any spells at all in that case unless you have some caster heroes in your capital, right?

Yep, no spells without a caster hero in my capital. Valana, Malleus, and Jaer worked together to put out several magic spirit scouts for me, and whenever I cracked a node, I pulled a scout to meld. I may call some one back soon-ish, just in case I want more magic spirits or something. I find that I keep reflexively clicking the Spell button to cast spells though, and then I'm all like "oh yeah, I'm just a brutish warlord." On the other hand, I'm actually funding buying things via mana income this game; I've got maybe 20 gp/turn taxes and ~100 mana/turn. Did you know that with Alchemy, the religious buildings can provide exactly enough gold to pay for their upkeep?

There are two things about casting spells from the arcane school:
1) The good ones are expensive.
2) The generally useful good ones are really expensive (Create Artifact, Summon Champion). Magic Spirit is the exception here, and it is really cheap.

Locking down my heroes to cast those spells seems like a weaker play than sending those heroes out to kill things, find artifacts, and earn fame for attracting mercs and more heroes. My hero stack has taken most of Myrror and banished Lo Pan on Arcanus. Its on its way to Ariel now; I still haven't found the other two wizards, but I know they are on Arcanus.

On the bright side, the strong points of a few heroes is really coming into focus. I wish I could use my hired ranger's pathfinding up until I need to cross water, then Jaer has me covered. Malleus pretty much solo wrecked Lo Pan's tower guard with a single flame strike, and Valana has been supporting with Confusion, Vertigo, and leadership. I gave Theira the best of the artifacts I've found and sent her out solo, and she's been tearing up the countryside with that agility + charmed. I recently broke off Bagthru from my main stack, gave him a couple of trolls, and sent him off to conquer in a different direction; he's got lucky and 10 thrown already, so I have high hopes for him.

I now suspect that some of the "sucky" heroes only seem sucky because they are being compared to the really strong heroes. Theira has solo'd stacks of horsebowmen and swordsmen with her agility and didn't need to stop to heal afterwards.

And done. Tlaloc got locked on an island with barely enough room for 3 cities (and High Men), I found Oberic's capital before seeing anything else of his empire; he had lizardmen. Lo Pan and Ariel were both doing alright until I hit them with a stack of mid level heroes (including Flame Strike) and Ultra Elite War Trolls.

I even got a decent score, which surprised me. Win screen attached.

Finishing quickly gives you a huge bonus. If you win early enough, you could even outperform an expansionist conqueror casting the Spell of Mastery. (IIRC it's part of the reason why EvilLoynis loves Death books so much.) ...um?

He didn't say what it was attached to!

Guh. I spent several minutes fiddling with the picture to get the file size down, used the attach button, and I thought I had it. Lets try that again... Edit: Success!

On another note, this game made me realize just how much I cast while playing normally. I found myself very conscious of my lack of casting ability almost constantly; if you want to develop a sense of appreciation for having spells, try playing for awhile zero casting skill.

It occurred to me that I was playing Civilization in a magic setting. :)


Speaking of EvilLoynis: How's that impossible game going? I'm really curious about how feasible this is on the hardest difficulty.

Good point. I guess another way of looking at it is that you were the guy who brought a knife to a gunfight, and still kicked everyone else's ass.

I may have to give this one a try. If nothing else, it'll shake up my (over)reliance on champions and artifacts.

I bet zero casting skill would be quite a bit harder with dark elves.

Quite frankly I believe the only race that has a chance of this, on IMPOSSIBLE, are Trolls with their regen ability to give them a boost with not being able to use unit enchantments.

Dark Elves would be stopped in their tracks by a Magic Immune unit of Palladins, Roland, Mortu or Torrin. The reason I consider these a real possibility is that their powerhouse would be Warlocks and their Doom Bolts to just obliterate enemies.

Warlocks aren't the only high power unit for Dark Elves; Nightmares are also quite respectable, especially with Adamantium. Paladins, Roland, Mortu, and Torin all lack ways to actually initiate on the Nightmares, so first strike is useless. Warlocks and nightmares are both high end units, but the excess mana can be turned to gold and rolled right back into the dark elf town. They are quite slow out of the gate, though.

I'm not sure who would have the hardest time of the Myrran races; might be beastmen or dwarves. Trolls probably have it easiest with regenerating War Trolls. Draconians have flying, fire breath, and are fast in general. Dwarves and beastmen are both slow and have to stop and heal. Dark Elves are slow and have to stop and heal, but they have those (weak) ranged attacks to soften up approaching enemies and they make a lot more magic which can be converted to gold.

That free, rare nature spell on all Troll units IS really strong. Except mammoths. Screw mammoths.