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wodmarach: You are not obliged to stay quiet just because something has "top secret" on cover.
You are obliged under the Official Secrets Act even without your consent.
And this dialogue from Yes, Minister is an oldie but still relevant:



Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
Sir Humphrey: Oh, ha ha ha.
Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
Sir Humphrey: Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It is a game played for national interests, and always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
Hacker: So why did the French go into it, then?
Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
Sir Humphrey: No, no. They went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.
Hacker: I never heard such appalling cynicism! At least the small nations didn't go into it for selfish reasons.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really? Luxembourg is in it for the perks; the capital of the EEC, all that foreign money pouring in.
Hacker: Very sensible central location.
Sir Humphrey: With the administration in Brussels and the Parliament in Strasbourg? Minister, it's like having the House of Commons in Swindon and the Civil Service in Kettering!
Post edited November 23, 2012 by Dreadz
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wodmarach: You are not obliged to stay quiet just because something has "top secret" on cover.
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Dreadz: You are obliged under the Official Secrets Act even without your consent.
And this dialogue from Yes, Minister is an oldie but still relevant:



Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
Sir Humphrey: Oh, ha ha ha.
Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
Sir Humphrey: Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It is a game played for national interests, and always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
Hacker: So why did the French go into it, then?
Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
Sir Humphrey: No, no. They went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.
Hacker: I never heard such appalling cynicism! At least the small nations didn't go into it for selfish reasons.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really? Luxembourg is in it for the perks; the capital of the EEC, all that foreign money pouring in.
Hacker: Very sensible central location.
Sir Humphrey: With the administration in Brussels and the Parliament in Strasbourg? Minister, it's like having the House of Commons in Swindon and the Civil Service in Kettering!
<3<3<3<3<3<3

People think that that show is a comedy.

The poor deluded fools don't realise it's actually a documentary :(
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wodmarach: You are not obliged to stay quiet just because something has "top secret" on cover.
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Dreadz: You are obliged under the Official Secrets Act even without your consent.
And this dialogue from Yes, Minister is an oldie but still relevant:
Well, you can go to jail in Poland for publishing a secret or topsecret information, but only if that publication would jeopardize National Security.

Also, in civilized countries, authorities can not force the press to reveal their sources.
The more I read up on it, the more relevant quotes pop up.
Concerning the official secrets:



Bernard: But surely the citizens of a democracy have a right to know.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: No. They have a right to be ignorant. Knowledge only means complicity in guilt; ignorance has a certain dignity.
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bansama: banana regulations
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Dzsono: I've never heard of them. What are they?
Using the informal page (and regulation name): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bent_banana_regulation
An opinion polls like this have come out every year since Margret Thatcher was grudgingly forced into the EU by her Foreign Office and, like every other time, it's just hot air. Right now David Cameron is in a tight spot, his party goal was to lower the deficit which hasn't been successful while his austerity measures mean he has less and less support from the working classes. His party is losing votes to the UK Independence Party while Labour is picking up votes from the Liberal Democrats, so obviously he is trying to move into his ideological rival's territory without actually jeopardizing his relationship with the other EU countries. In effect, sitting on the fence because it's the only thing he can do right now that won't lose him votes from the lower and working class.

It's not just the EU that is pissed at him, in the UK his EU policy is seen as laughable and it's obvious that he is pandering to as many groups as he possibly can without actually doing anything. Remember early this year when he was negotiating to make London an exception to EU banking regulations? In the end he got what he wanted and they even re-wrote parts of the policy just for him and he still voted against it! He voted down his own policy simply out of principle! It's that level of stupidity that his conservative base loves but that independents and liberals find confusing or imbecilic.

So, will the UK leave the EU? No. France and Germany are our biggest trading partners and if we leave they will be holding up the Union by themselves. We are too close to France to let them go bankrupt just because 56% of Britons have an unquantifiable fear of losing their identity. We will lose actual money if we leave and with our budget numbers stubbornly in the red we, and the Tories, literally can't afford to leave the EU. Unless UKIP wins in a landslide, the British will remain European.
Post edited November 23, 2012 by Parvateshwar
Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.
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amok: I know. Makes you proud to be Norwegian, doesn't it? Going from being one of the poorest European countries to end up in a position where we can share our wealth. Especially for a cause such as increasing sustainable educational development in other countries. You know the saying "Give a man a fish, and he will have food for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will have food for the rest of his life"
Yea, But i still think we shoud have been able to vote about being members though
It kinda defeats the purpose of democracy and liberty if you arent able to vote in important matters.
we are also giving a signifigant amount of money in foreign aid in addition to the EEA Grants so its not like were wery greedy about our money.
Post edited November 23, 2012 by Lodium
Personally, I think Europe needs to address some serious problems and isn't going about it in the correct manner. There are two countries in Europe that have, in effect, unelected governments lead by Eurocrats. I understand that, technically, 'democratic law' has been followed to the letter in the 'electing' of these new governments, including free voting in the elected houses. However, there are only so many times you can change governments without allowing the people the opportunity to change their representatives. The problem, as I see it, is a broken economic model that is being propped up - it's a hard thing to see (and say) being inside the beast, but that is scarily USSR like (I don't care however temporary the measures are supposed to be).

Even more worryingly is that, for the first time in 70 years, we have some powerful European countries extracting repayment from weaker neighbours. Actually, I'd narrow that down to one member, because Italy is not weak. Italy is one of the largest economies in the world and, although some productivity is lost to rampant corruption, its books were/are very healthy (certainly in a better place than the UK). There was some short term debt that needed repaying, but nothing toxic and nothing that couldn't have been restructured. It beggars the question why the EU felt the need to push for a technocratic government. Italy wasn't shitting money, in layman's terms. There are lots of conspiracies that have sprung up around this, from shadowy bankers looking to increase profitability (because there is only one thing worse than a country that can't make its repayments, it's a country that is soon to be debt-free) to the relatively balanced books of a massive economy representing a powerful tool for shifting debt around Europe. Personally, I don't care about the reason why, the act itself is wrong. Half my family are Italian and I know it was a bit of a "wtf" moment for many over there. On the one hand, elation that Berlusconi was gone, on the other, anger at an imposed government. The combination of these two facts, added to the historical precedent (this isn't the first time this has happened in the past few decades) meant the transition was made with little fuss. Not so in Greece!

Regardless of their differences, many people in Greece and Italy are desperate. Greeks, before the crisis, worked longer and harder than anyone else in Europe - we're asking them to work harder still (for less) and to probably forget about ever retiring. Italians, while previously enjoying a strong economy, often found themselves working underpaid jobs or still living with their parents at 40 (I kid you not, this is the norm, not the exception). Nothing has changed, except now they're even poorer, paying more taxes and have an economy that is somehow in a worse state. Some of the economic 'fascism' happening in Italy is unbelievable, too - the policies, which almost entirely involve the government being able to monitor the average joe's spending, are disgusting in a free society. May as well mention the people of Spain, too. They have only fended off the takeover of their democracy by a government that has sold them down the river to give the illusion of autonomy. Many people in Europe simply want to do an Iceland, but they're not being allowed to vote on it. Meanwhile, the UK is helping to peddle the very 'economic responsibility' that is denying the people of Europe their free vote, waving around the threat of allowing its own people a vote!

Back to the first time in 70 years etc.

The last time Europe was in this situation the European Allied Powers of the First World War were extracting reparations from Germany. That led to World War 2. One of the many sparks that would lead to the First World War was Germany extracting harsh reparations from France in the latter part of the 19th century. We have the conditions that sparked the last two world wars, namely: a long economic depression, European countries extracting payments from neighbours that plunge citizens into poverty, the rise of fascism (Greece, in particular) and hostilities nearby (god help us if Turkey gets involved in Syria, because Greece may not be far behind).

Yet, I'm not anti-EU. I think it is a very powerful tool to help us all be friends. I don't view it as a cold, hard trade bloc. I don't view it as an economic union as the central European powers do. I don't view it as a political union that pretends all its citizens have one voice. I view it as the best tool to stop us killing one another. However, given that we've managed to get to the point with the EU where we are doing exactly that (just not at the end of a barrel), I do wonder what the point of it is.

If this all seems messy, it's because the EU is in a state and nothing makes much sense. All I know is that we'll probably be at war within decades without it, may be heading that way anyway and that all of us should be ashamed that it has reached a point where an economic model is more important than freedom or not having wars.
Post edited November 23, 2012 by obscurelyric