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General discussionRPGs that subvert the usual arcane/divine magic division?(12 posts)(12 posts)
(12 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 11, 2021
Suppose we look at RPGs with the following characteristics:
* There exist both arcane and divine magic (or at least concepts that are comparable to them)
* Healing magic exists

Typically, in such an RPG, arcane casters get the most powerful attack spells, but typically get no (or very limited) healing. Divine casters, on the other hand, get healing magic throughout the game, but their offensive magic spells tend not to be as strong, if they're present at all (or you might have the only attack spell be a high level spell, like Final Fantasy white mages).

My question is, what games have subverted this division?

One I can think of is Dragon Wars:
* Every magic skill can get healing magic, and the healing capabilities are comparable between them (with Druid Magic users getting a small edge with multi-target healing). This includes High Magic, which is the closest counterpart to arcane magic.
* Sun Magic, the closest counterpart to arcane magic, gets the most powerful attack spells.
* Even Low Magic gets a healing spell, and that spell can be obtained in infinite quantities early in the game, so every caster is going to get a healing spell.

Any other good examples of this?
Posted March 11, 2021
Anyone?
Posted March 11, 2021
probably another saga game + spam
Posted March 11, 2021
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dtgreene: Suppose we look at RPGs with the following characteristics:
* There exist both arcane and divine magic (or at least concepts that are comparable to them)
* Healing magic exists

Typically, in such an RPG, arcane casters get the most powerful attack spells, but typically get no (or very limited) healing. Divine casters, on the other hand, get healing magic throughout the game, but their offensive magic spells tend not to be as strong, if they're present at all (or you might have the only attack spell be a high level spell, like Final Fantasy white mages).

My question is, what games have subverted this division?

One I can think of is Dragon Wars:
* Every magic skill can get healing magic, and the healing capabilities are comparable between them (with Druid Magic users getting a small edge with multi-target healing). This includes High Magic, which is the closest counterpart to arcane magic.
* Sun Magic, the closest counterpart to arcane magic, gets the most powerful attack spells.
* Even Low Magic gets a healing spell, and that spell can be obtained in infinite quantities early in the game, so every caster is going to get a healing spell.

Any other good examples of this?
Just remember Warcraft in this moment, but probably there are many more
Posted March 11, 2021
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Orkhepaj: probably another saga game + spam
Actually, none of the SaGa games I've played have this distinction. Either:
* There's nothing comparable to divine magic. Either deities aren't in the game, or magic isn't associated with them at all.
* All magic can be considered divine (Romancing SaGa).

Hence, that particular series doesn't really fit this topic, as no game in it (to my knowledge) has both arcane and divine magic.
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dtgreene: Suppose we look at RPGs with the following characteristics:
* There exist both arcane and divine magic (or at least concepts that are comparable to them)
* Healing magic exists

Typically, in such an RPG, arcane casters get the most powerful attack spells, but typically get no (or very limited) healing. Divine casters, on the other hand, get healing magic throughout the game, but their offensive magic spells tend not to be as strong, if they're present at all (or you might have the only attack spell be a high level spell, like Final Fantasy white mages).

My question is, what games have subverted this division?

One I can think of is Dragon Wars:
* Every magic skill can get healing magic, and the healing capabilities are comparable between them (with Druid Magic users getting a small edge with multi-target healing). This includes High Magic, which is the closest counterpart to arcane magic.
* Sun Magic, the closest counterpart to arcane magic, gets the most powerful attack spells.
* Even Low Magic gets a healing spell, and that spell can be obtained in infinite quantities early in the game, so every caster is going to get a healing spell.

Any other good examples of this?
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KetobaK: Just remember Warcraft in this moment, but probably there are many more
Which Warcraft game, and how is it subverted here?
Post edited March 11, 2021 by dtgreene
Posted March 11, 2021
Diablo - anyone can learn any spells, healing or attack, as long as they fulfill the magic point requirements for it. Lands of Lore - anyone can cast any spell as long as they have the mana to cast it.

But if you want something with actual spell schools - there's the Elder Scroll Games where Restoration Magic is its own school which contains healing, has nothing to do with Gods/Religion. And anyone can learn it, some classes just have a harder time starting.
Post edited March 11, 2021 by kalirion
Posted March 11, 2021
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kalirion: Diablo - anyone can learn any spells, healing or attack, as long as they fulfill the magic point requirements for it. Lands of Lore - anyone can cast any spell as long as they have the mana to cast it.

But if you want something with actual spell schools - there's the Elder Scroll Games where Body/Restoration Magic is its own school which contains healing, has nothing to do with Gods/Religion.
Thing is, for purposes of this topic I'm only considering games where some, but not all, spells are associated with Gods/Religion. What I'd like to see is games of that type where the healing spells are of the type *not* associated with such things.

Also, in the TES games, I have noticed that Restoration does tend to be associated with religious factions. Even early on, I believe you go to a temple to get cured of status ailments (though at least you can just go to the Mage's Guild and buy the spell, or in Arena a potion, to cure the status ailment).

Basically, I'm looking for games where the distinction exists, but is not "arcane is damage, divine is healing".
Posted March 11, 2021
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dtgreene: Thing is, for purposes of this topic I'm only considering games where some, but not all, spells are associated with Gods/Religion. What I'd like to see is games of that type where the healing spells are of the type *not* associated with such things.

Also, in the TES games, I have noticed that Restoration does tend to be associated with religious factions. Even early on, I believe you go to a temple to get cured of status ailments (though at least you can just go to the Mage's Guild and buy the spell, or in Arena a potion, to cure the status ailment).

Basically, I'm looking for games where the distinction exists, but is not "arcane is damage, divine is healing".
There is probably cultural religious reasons why most games are like that.

Traditionally, sciences (which are represented by arcane magic in games) have been "free" to innovate in the inanimate realm with less interference.

However, to this day, there is a (thankfully waning) cultural stigma that life is the purview of "god" and any man trying to delve into it (at least for anything beyond the microscopic) is delving into things man was not meant to delve in.

This is reflected into games and a lot of people look at tinkering with biology with great suspicion. So, its just more palatable to say "its ok, god is doing it".

Not saying there are no moral dilemmas (if you have life with even the most limited intelligence, you have to take into account its desires), but you don't need to complicate it even further with extra layers of dogmatic restrictions.
Post edited March 11, 2021 by Magnitus
Posted March 11, 2021
avatar
dtgreene: Suppose we look at RPGs with the following characteristics:
* There exist both arcane and divine magic (or at least concepts that are comparable to them)
* Healing magic exists

Typically, in such an RPG, arcane casters get the most powerful attack spells, but typically get no (or very limited) healing. Divine casters, on the other hand, get healing magic throughout the game, but their offensive magic spells tend not to be as strong, if they're present at all (or you might have the only attack spell be a high level spell, like Final Fantasy white mages).

My question is, what games have subverted this division?

One I can think of is Dragon Wars:
* Every magic skill can get healing magic, and the healing capabilities are comparable between them (with Druid Magic users getting a small edge with multi-target healing). This includes High Magic, which is the closest counterpart to arcane magic.
* Sun Magic, the closest counterpart to arcane magic, gets the most powerful attack spells.
* Even Low Magic gets a healing spell, and that spell can be obtained in infinite quantities early in the game, so every caster is going to get a healing spell.

Any other good examples of this?
Neverwinternights 2, mask of the betrayer.

It made all classes reconsider the consequences of healing.

Perhaps you should play it.
Posted March 11, 2021
How about Ultima VIII: Pagan? To my understanding four of the schools of magic there are associated with different Titans (e.g. most destruction spells with Pyros), so somewhat similar to the concept of divine magic although the Titans are not really gods, but there is also thaumaturgy which is not tied to the existing Titans, and healing is part of that school.
Post edited March 11, 2021 by DiffuseReflection
Posted March 12, 2021
In The Dark Eye system healing magic can be learned by several magic-enabled characters (mages, elves, witches...) while "votaries" (priests) can ask their god for a miracle. There are 12 gods, and their miracles are according to what they stand for - so most of them have nothing to do with healing (Peraine, goddess of agriculture and healing, might have something).

In Drakensang River of Time the player character can become a votary of Phex - god of thieves, gamblers and merchants - and the miracles are mostly buffs/debuffs, no healing at all. You need a magic user to get healing spells.
Posted March 12, 2021
Tales of Maj'eyal kinda has a system like this.

It's also technically after a magic apocalypse.
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General discussionRPGs that subvert the usual arcane/divine magic division?(12 posts)(12 posts)
(12 posts)