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my name is anime catte: Ah, so it's Frau Reinhardt vs the OED?
And did she explicitly teach you "Some people will try and use a singular They, but they are bad and wrong!"?
Or did she simply not teach you about it at all?
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BreOl72: She actually never said anything to that regard. So, I guess, she didn't teach us all the ins and outs of the English language, huh?
Well what does that tell us about the UK school system? After all: she had been taught her English there, and then continued to teach it to new generations (Brits and Germans).
Now I have to wonder why she never taught us that...can you think of any reason?
I work in education and if you think you're going to get a rise out of me by criticising out education system you can think again. I am chock full of criticisms of our education system. She didn't teach you because it wasn't considered part of formal English at the time, formal English being what you were taught at school. Your (outdated) knowledge of formal English applies to writing letters but you're trying to apply it to writing on a forum, where conversational English (i.e. the natural and living form) is in use. Singular they is neither modern, nor archaic in spoken English - it's just part of it.

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my name is anime catte: ...did she explicitly teach you "Some people will try and use a singular They, but they are bad and wrong!"?

If [so], well that would be evidence of its use existing.
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BreOl72: Sorry, but huh?
It's pretty simple. She wouldn't have a reason to explicitly forbid something unless it's something people were prone to do (as they are and have always done). But as she didn't forbid it, this branch is redundant.

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my name is anime catte: She wouldn't have an opinion on something people didn't do, after all.
If the latter... well the lack of a positive is hardly evidence of a negative. So she neglected to mention one particular aspect of English, does it mean it doesn't exist?
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BreOl72: Covering all the bases here, are we... ;)
Yes indeed. No matter how you slice it "I wasn't taught to do it by my English teacher" is a weak defence. Your source of one English teacher in Germany doesn't exactly outweigh a lifetime of immersion.

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my name is anime catte: If you think something that was first attested in 1375 is a butchering of the language just you wait until you see what Shakespeare did to it! Boy are you going to be pissed off, he made up so many words.

Incidentally, you never addressed my point about the word You and the fact that it has transformed from a purely plural word into also being a singular... much like Sie has in German. There are words that can be both plural and singular, and They has been one of those for a very long time.
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BreOl72: The German "Sie" has as long as I live and quite some time before that (I'm not going back to the stone age here) been used to address (A) a singular female, and (B) a group of persons of all genders in plural.
No recent changes made to that.
Now that's interesting, as I was taught in school that Sie is also a formal way to address a single person in a formal manner (i.e. a polite "you"). Is my understanding wrong or did you omit it from explanation as a convenient way to ignore the point I was making? It is a plural being used as a singular pronoun. Does that seem familiar?

And you haven't addressed the elephant in the room, that being the fact that singular They is attested as far back as 1375. It is no modern butchering.

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BreOl72: No need to find some semantic loophole.
I repeat: nowhere did I actually claim "to be right" and "to outrank the OED".
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BreOl72:
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my name is anime catte: You're not very good with subtext and implication are you? If you ignore evidence then it can be expected that you consider it somehow 'invalid'. If you ignore the OED then you think you know better than them.
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BreOl72: Why do I have the feeling, I'm listening to a broken record?
I said my part on that. Accept it, or let it be - I really don't care.
I accept your dislike, however your claim it is a "modern butchering" is BS as I have shown. You could accept that, but for whatever reason you prefer to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la" when confronted with facts. If that's how you wish to be seen, that's also your choice.

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my name is anime catte: I have no doubt you have, and their motivation is doubtless the same as yours - some misguided attempt to be anti-woke. Even if singular they was truly a neologism, why is it getting singled out? Because it is perceived to be "woke". If this was really about recent changes in the language there would be much bigger fish to fry, never mind the fact that this is demonstrably not a recent thing.
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BreOl72: Ah, back to imagining things and call them "facts",I see.
Ok.
Another broken record, then.
Just a supposition of mine extrapolated from the available evidence.

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BreOl72: According to Catte, we apparently weren't taught everything the English language has to offer.
It's pretty amusing that you think it's even possible that English taught to you in school could be "everything the English language has to offer".
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clarry: Given the state of political discourse today, it doesn't surprise me at all. Expressing disagreement with whatever constitutes the currently accepted way of being politically correct is a good way to get you instantly categorized as a racist sexist right-wing neo-nazi bigot. And it's not like you could change anyone's mind. What good outcome could possibly come out of such a discussion?
It's more the fact that it's provably been part of the language for hundreds of years and people still try and deny it. What reason might they have to ignore facts?
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paladin181: Wow. This... deteriorated. Did you get your problem solved, OP?
Well the reason their games aren't on their account is that they just opened a new account. Until they come back and provide some more info there's nothing anyone here can do.
Post edited January 07, 2023 by my name is anime catte
Maybe the language and culture barrier is just a bit too overwhelming here.

I'd ask you all for a bit more excellence towards each other. :(

I don't really condone so harshly criticising the post of a German person just for using the male article as a default (which is more of a cultural thing in the gaming sphere). Just like with the nine fold strict order of adjectives in a sentence, we Germans have problems with the mere idea of not being able to apply a default grammatical gender to everything.

Fact:
The singular usage of the pronoun they has been around for nearly 650 years in the English language. It filled a huge grammatical gap that the German language filled with grammatical gender. In modern times, it effortlessly fills a new lexical gap that Germans struggle massively and as of yet fail to somehow overcome.

This should have settled the discussion three pages ago and nobody would have gotten (butt-)hurt.

If BreOl's former teacher has not taught her pupils the singular use of the word, it doesn't mean she actively told her pupils that a singular use was impossible. I seriously doubt she ever did, because how would she talk about situations in which the gender of a certain person is unknown?

In German, you'd likely use the female pronoun, because the grammatical gender of the word "Person" is female.

We recorded this masked person yesterday. They broke into an electronics shop.
RP or GenAm, this is how you'd properly talk about this situation in English.

Wir haben diese maskierte Person gestern aufgezeichnet. Sie ist in einen Elektronikladen eingebrochen.

That's how we'd put it in German, and we really don't think anything by it. We would still by default assume that it was a male person who broke into the store even though we just heard the news referring to them as a "she". That's our language. It's a box we're locked in, see: Sapir/Whorf hypothesis.

I envy the English language for that singular usage of they immensely. It's a giant leap for someone who grew up with a mother tongue that has grammatical gender.

I can talk to people in English about how my sibling told me in August last year that they don't have a gender. In German, I find it increasingly impossible to talk about my sibling. To even find a non gendered word for "sibling" is fairly impossible. I use "Geschwister" in the singular, it just sounds silly. I stumble and I still call them my sister accidentally, they're getting quite irate sometimes. And using brand new "just invented" gender neutral pronouns in a language you've spoken for more than 40 years, that's rock hard. My sibling has given us examples of what new pronouns they'd like to be used for them, and I do my fucking darndest to use them. They still sound like gibberish to my ears. I wish we'd have a singular they. We just don't.

Have a bit of patience, folks, please. This is difficult.
Post edited January 08, 2023 by Vainamoinen
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Vainamoinen: Have a bit of patience, folks, please. This is difficult.
True indeed.

I'd left this thread of course as it went a bit mental (me included), but I'd like to make it clear if this was a thread in Deutsch then we could be having the opposite issue.
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Vainamoinen: Have a bit of patience, folks, please. This is difficult.
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Sachys: True indeed.

I'd left this thread of course as it went a bit mental (me included), but I'd like to make it clear if this was a thread in Deutsch then we could be having the opposite issue.
I'd like to think I'd at least defer to the native speaker if we were having this discussion auf Deutsch. ;)
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my name is anime catte: I'd like to think I'd at least defer to the native speaker if we were having this discussion auf Deutsch. ;)
Yarp!