It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
While I admire the developer's attempt to recapture some of the Ultima-style charm of early exploratory RPGs, and was especially looking forward to the turn based combat, I'm about fifteen hours into Book I and can't find very much enjoyment.

This is one of the slowest games I've ever played. I thought the Temple of Elemental Evil played slowly (one of my favorite games) but that game is like a rocket ride compared to this.

Did anyone here actually have fun with the game outside of the appreciation of what the designers were attempting to resurrect? I can see admiring the game, I can see being grateful there are still "old school" games being produced, but I can't see very much honest to goodness FUN coming from this game...
I love it, and I love the slowness. 1000 xp just to level up the first time! For some reason that really appeals to me. I can walk around all day, explore, make errors and learn from them, learn new things. Yeah, it's definitely not a "rush through to the end" kind of game.

I do wish, however, that they had implemented left-clicking for movement instead of having to constantly direct the character.
If you are playing Eschalon in an old computer, you may be suffering slowdown. Compare your walking speed to Eschalon youtube videos to figure out if this is the problem. If this is the case, lowering the graphic quality in game options can give you some extra speed.

Anyway, Eschalon I is a slow game. So many people complained about walking speed that the developers made Eschalon II a bit faster.

The slowness of these games helps to the atmosphere, and gives you a feeling of loneliness and freedom. It is quite realistic to need some time for walking from one town into another, turning each travel into a quest. However, all towns are quite near from each other, and you can open a "quick travel" menu clicking your map.
avatar
DieRuhe: I love it, and I love the slowness. 1000 xp just to level up the first time! For some reason that really appeals to me. I can walk around all day, explore, make errors and learn from them, learn new things. Yeah, it's definitely not a "rush through to the end" kind of game.

I do wish, however, that they had implemented left-clicking for movement instead of having to constantly direct the character.
You do move by left-clicking in the game. Or do you mean a system by which you click on a tile position and a path appears starting at your character and ending at the destination, giving a chance to accept or cancel it? Or do you mean that the character has pathfinding and so you only have to click once to make it go somewhere?

One of the things I didn't like was it got hard to see your character or other monsters behind things like trees, even though your character should have a line of sight. Another thing is sometimes you're in tight quarter and you make a quick movement and misjudge the tile your character will end up on - resulting in your potential death.

I imagine I had other things i didn't like about the interface or movement, I just can't remember off hte top of my mind. Since I did finish the game and enjoy it overall, I can't say these things stopped me from having some fun.

If I had a chance to remake this game myself, there're a lot of things i'd change I'm sure.
Post edited December 15, 2013 by jonbee77
avatar
jonbee77: pathfinding
Exactly. I couldn't think of the word (it was probably about 3:50 am and I hadn't had coffee yet).

Or even the "show path" approach. I don't really utilize the "continuous walk" thing, because I'm always wanting to stop. Just a small gripe, really. Then again, when it comes to precarious navigation, the "one click = one space" thing works well. That's kinda like pathfinding, I guess, just in really short doses!
"So many people complained about walking speed that the developers made Eschalon II a bit faster. "

I couldn't stand the slow speed either. I understand that some people feel slower speeds is realistic, but I really hate walking places in games. Unless there's danger, or a hidden feature I might miss, or even beautiful scenery to admire, I don't want to bother. Spending forever to move across a screen annoys me in any game.

I even wrote the devs after playing E1, asking if they had plans to go back and re-release it with improved walking speed. They said no. : (

The only consolation I can see is that after E3 is out, some in community plan on remaking E1 and E2 using the E3 features and the mod kit the devs said they will release. So... eventually there will be some improvement in walking speed, but not much, and only from the community, not the dev.
low rated
Insofar as movement speed is concerned, I think the movement speed bothered some people because at first it works since there're things to avoid and/or kill, but after they're dead and you still have to move through the area then it becomes a chore. Even quick travel didn't solve the problem because you still ended up having to move through several screens of emptiness. Perhaps they could have added a few more locations to the quick travel. A better solution is probably to just have the player be given the ability to sprint. This way the player could move slow when there're lots of enemies and could move fast when the area is empty. They could even ride a horse if players think that's more immersive. Ultimately, I think every game needs some sort of flexible teleport system because the preset waypoint or teleport systems don't work very well in my view.

Some players do like to travel on foot because they think it's immersive. However, I think this only works well when the environment presents a threat or at least changes over time. An empty environment is not compelling. Yes, it's more realistic to have to move through the environment, but if it's empty it's a wasted opportunity to produce enjoyment.

I think most players - which constitute the vast bulk of the mainstream - only like to travel on foot the first time through an environment - irregardless of any threats or changes to that environment afterwards. Effectively, these kinds of players can only be satisfied with new environments. Thus, quick travel in already visited areas and lots of new areas is the only real solution for them.

What this boils down to I think is some players have higher expectations for new content. Players who talk about liking immersion have lower expectations and don't mind traveling or doing things in old content as long as it has some things changed. Players who have higher expectations cannot be satisfied with small changes, so they need completely new environments.

My theory - or hypothesis - is immersion gamers are lacking in their ability to absorb information somehow. This causes them to have very low content consumption. They display more repetitive behaviors in games. They cloak this underlying reason in fancy words like realism and immersiveness, but these words are just distraction from the truth. They want the game to be slower and more repetitive and don't care what the means is. Players who need new environments to be truly satisfied, by contrast, absorb information much faster and so they require newer things at a higher pace. These players will treat repetitive games as though they were vindictive or broken, not realizing that some gamers (and game makers) actually want games to be more repetitive.

I'm not speaking in a void. There's research out there that backs up my theory. For example, there's one research study on rats where repeated stress stimuli shrunk the learning centers of the brain and caused those rats to display much higher amounts of repetitive behavior. They also found that the area of the brain which handles habit (otherwise known as repetition) had grown.

So I can speculate immersion gamers have experienced stress in their past and this has shrunk the learning centers of their brain and also grown the areas of the brain controlling habit. They have then become less tolerant to new things and more inclined towards old things. This is why they like game features which slow down the game and reward repetition more. Because they still have learning centers of the brain they still require some new things or changes to old things, but they're not learning-focused.

Note I've also seen research that links the size of the area of the brain controlling habit with the ability of the rat to repeat something. In other words, if it's larger then the rat is slightly better at repeating something. So there's a possibility immersion gamers are better at playing repetitive games than non-immersion gamers and this is not because they're more interested in playing.
Post edited December 16, 2013 by jonbee77
I won't get into a wordy reply, but I will caution against your apparent message that some gamers have suffered brain damage, and that's why they like slower games. That's fairly offensive, especially when it's just speculation on your part. Even though I may want less repetition, a similar argument could be made about "us". We suffer from ADD, we're incapable of maintaining our attention for long, we're like simple animals looking for the next shiny, we're brain damaged. A constant demand for new stimuli could imply its own spectrum of afflictions.

Pointing out that gamers have different interests and styles, and thus games will appeal to us all in different ways, is a fair statement. Going into seemingly personal attacks against some gamers, even if your hypothesis were substantiated, doesn't seem to advance any kind of useful discussion.
avatar
jonbee77: Insofar as movement speed is concerned, I think the movement speed bothered some people because at first it works since there're things to avoid and/or kill, but after they're dead and you still have to move through the area then it becomes a chore. Even quick travel didn't solve the problem because you still ended up having to move through several screens of emptiness. Perhaps they could have added a few more locations to the quick travel. A better solution is probably to just have the player be given the ability to sprint. This way the player could move slow when there're lots of enemies and could move fast when the area is empty. They could even ride a horse if players think that's more immersive. Ultimately, I think every game needs some sort of flexible teleport system because the preset waypoint or teleport systems don't work very well in my view.

Some players do like to travel on foot because they think it's immersive. However, I think this only works well when the environment presents a threat or at least changes over time. An empty environment is not compelling. Yes, it's more realistic to have to move through the environment, but if it's empty it's a wasted opportunity to produce enjoyment.

I think most players - which constitute the vast bulk of the mainstream - only like to travel on foot the first time through an environment - irregardless of any threats or changes to that environment afterwards. Effectively, these kinds of players can only be satisfied with new environments. Thus, quick travel in already visited areas and lots of new areas is the only real solution for them.

What this boils down to I think is some players have higher expectations for new content. Players who talk about liking immersion have lower expectations and don't mind traveling or doing things in old content as long as it has some things changed. Players who have higher expectations cannot be satisfied with small changes, so they need completely new environments.

My theory - or hypothesis - is immersion gamers are lacking in their ability to absorb information somehow. This causes them to have very low content consumption. They display more repetitive behaviors in games. They cloak this underlying reason in fancy words like realism and immersiveness, but these words are just distraction from the truth. They want the game to be slower and more repetitive and don't care what the means is. Players who need new environments to be truly satisfied, by contrast, absorb information much faster and so they require newer things at a higher pace. These players will treat repetitive games as though they were vindictive or broken, not realizing that some gamers (and game makers) actually want games to be more repetitive.

I'm not speaking in a void. There's research out there that backs up my theory. For example, there's one research study on rats where repeated stress stimuli shrunk the learning centers of the brain and caused those rats to display much higher amounts of repetitive behavior. They also found that the area of the brain which handles habit (otherwise known as repetition) had grown.

So I can speculate immersion gamers have experienced stress in their past and this has shrunk the learning centers of their brain and also grown the areas of the brain controlling habit. They have then become less tolerant to new things and more inclined towards old things. This is why they like game features which slow down the game and reward repetition more. Because they still have learning centers of the brain they still require some new things or changes to old things, but they're not learning-focused.

Note I've also seen research that links the size of the area of the brain controlling habit with the ability of the rat to repeat something. In other words, if it's larger then the rat is slightly better at repeating something. So there's a possibility immersion gamers are better at playing repetitive games than non-immersion gamers and this is not because they're more interested in playing.
I'm sorry but do you really believe what you are typing? If you have found studies that (IMO do not prove much either way) then post links because all we have is your word(with lets be honest is not much to go on). I do not see how you could right this and think it would not offend people. You are narrowing what people mean with they talk of realism and immersive for your own purpose.