I'm not doing what I used to do, carrying dead-weight Bishops around until Arnika. These two Bishops are picking spells to make the party more powerful, as all the important, quality-of-life buffs have already been picked (Light, Missile Shield, Armorplate, X-Ray, Enchanted Blade, Magic Screen).

The Valkyrie and Ranger only have one spellbook to pick spells from, so Body of Stone will be picked by the Ranger (also, the Bishop focused on Alchemy has picked this spell).

Bayjin enemies are vulnerable to Fire magic (including crabs, and set and random Rynjin enemies). Therefore, fire magic training is in order. Note that, to kill underwater Rynjin, you should have instant death spells available, since Fire magic doesn't work underwater.

I don't like relying on Haste: It doesn't work underwater, it doesn't take effect until round 2, and wastes a whole combat round. I would rather have my characters be naturally fast (and have Snakespeed).

Or you could just use attack spells of other realms, like Whipping Rocks.

(Or Falling Stars, if you're of a high enough level to cast it. Or that one other spell that's basically Falling Stars, but better.)

I don't mind if it's intentional or no: I think it makes Wiz8's rich chargen richer.

Which is why stopping at forty-five may be smarter than rushing fifty. Although, thanks to leveling eventually slowing, it probably makes little difference. Stopping at thirty for all four books probably works fine, if one wants to start on other skills faster. But rushing x-ray and the two resistance shields is probably a non-bad idea.

Also, it's body of stone, not toxic cloud. For a MDP it's obvious which is better. But for a slow as party... Yeah, I know not, I shall admit. (If you have sharp stones, it's probably not summon, unless one really needs more divine... hmm, I guess for certain parties might be.)

The real issue tends to be things like plus ten-plus level sprites on expert. But, there is never fast enough. Only fast-ish. That's why reflexes and radar reading gets one further. Then, is maxing init necessary? This is one of those long wars. (It is nice, no way around that.) Also, also, can so be the slow slow. Different goals for different folks, and all that old jazz. Never gets old enough, never ever.

Yeah, I like pushing the long-term buffs. C'est très cool.

I said forget it. I got to the house with only warriors with spells. I "beat the game" as my one sibling might say. Maybe I'll go further, but, we shall see.

I don't understand your constant class switching: Every level you spend as a Bishop, gives a level credit to all 4 spellbooks, as difficult as levelling up a Bishop is. By level 24, you should "max out" on credit for all 4 spellbooks, as, with the proper skills, you should be able to pick any spell in the game, and be able to cast level 7 spells at power level 6 (for the hit all/kill all spells), and level 7 for the cheaper ones (like Tsunami, Concussion, Cerebral Hemorrhage).

It was different for the previous MDP, having the simplest casters: Bard, Gadgeteer, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, Mage. These 6 characters levelled quickly, not having to worry about saving spell picks. Due to layered magic, they dominated the game after level 30 or so.

This changed once I reached Ascension Peak, and was forced to use ranged combat against same-level enemies (and melee combat against bosses).

With this party, I going for a more balanced approach. The Bishops have stopped taking lower level spells, and will now only pick level 6 and 7 spells. This is because time is running out; I'm at level 18, and level-ups will only take more time.

After level 24, when magic supposedly maxes out, I could consider switching to a different class than a Bishop, but it only makes sense to stay the course until then.

Are you attempting to rush Bayjin/Bayjin Shallows/Sea Caves early (before like level 20)? You should probably spend some time levelling up if the answer is yes (especially since, you can farm the Buccaneer Ghosts for *Light Swords* and *Light Shields*, and Nessie is just after them.

The idea is to try to find uses for mechanics that seem useless.

Also, I note that these bishop mix builds generally only involve two classes; bishop and one other.

You don't need to be that high in level for those areas to be manageable. I sometimes end up going there before then because I'm otherwise out of places to go (not counting Ascension Peak). Often, it's because I want that Renaissance Lute, which requires you be at least level 18 (on your bard) to get.

Reaching level 18 *does* help if you have any stamina casters (though be aware that bards are less useful underwater, as at this point *2* of their main instruments don't work underwater).

I don't farm non-repeatable rare drops, and I don't consider such items when theorycrafting builds.

Another thing I've thought of is the attribute cost of these specialist/bishop mixes. Assuming that level 1 is taken as a Bishop:
* Mage: If you're going for Power Cast, none. If you wait until you get the Trynton Fountain boost, none. (If you're not going for Power Cast, why are you changing to Mage?)
* Psionic: For a speed build (INT/SPD), Senses is 3rd priority, and will likely be high enough for the change, so none, assuming you have decent bonus points (15+) to start with.
* Alchemist: 5 points need to be put into Dexterity.
* Priest: The most costly one, and hence the least practical, because of the Vitality requirement. The cost varies by race, ranging from as low as 5 for Dwarf/Dracon/Lizardman (but these are apprentice builds; the Dwarf can't change to Priest until level 4) to as high as 25 for Fairy.

I'm thinking I may look at another sort of build, one that I think is less common among players, but doesn't feel like it should be that unusual. This build is geared towards playing under less safe rules; expert difficulty, ironman, and/or not casting Element/Soul Shield in every single battle with casters or status ailment inflictors.

And that is the Survival Priest build.

The idea behind this build is that you have a character with two major roles:
* The character should *not* die or be disabled, or at least it should happen as rarely as practical.
* When the rest of the party is disabled, this character needs to be able to help everyone else.

So, one way the build can work:
* Race: Dwarf. This gives good stats for this build, and some (physical) damage resistance. Not the best for status resistance, however.
* Class: Priest. This class levels up faster than any other class that gets this spellbook, and levels help you resist status ailments and instant death.
* Stats: Start with 76 in Pie and Vit. (Remaining 18 bonus points can go wherever you'd like; put in Str for eventual Power Strike, for example.) At level up, boost Str and Vit by 3 until they max out.
* Spells: Make sure to get status cure spells when they're available, particularly Cure Light Condition, Cure Paralysis, Resurrection, and Restoration. Of course, you'll want others as well.

What this version of the build gets you:
* Iron Will at level 9. This is the key skill here, as it boosts resistance, so that, at this point, the priest is less likely to be unable to act, and hence more likely able to help others.
* Iron Skin at level 9: This means that the character takes less physical damage. This stacks with the dwarf's natural damage resistance (10% at 100 Vitality), meaning the low-ish HP of the Priest is a non-issue (not to mention that it won't be so low at this point).

There are possible variants, like if you want to try and combine this with another role. One possibility might be to raise Int instead of Vit; you won't get the same HP and resistance, but you'll get more mental resistance, not to mention that this version doubles as a caster priest. Could try other races; I'm thinking gnome and rawulf might be worth looking into. (From a quick look, gnome gets earth and mental resistance; earth might help against Quicksand.)

(Side note: I'm thinking that maybe the Gnome and Rawulf races could have used slightly better stats, to put their stat sum on par with Hobbits; they don't have any significant special abilities, and they don't have exceptional scores in any of the high demand ability scores.)

At the moment, I'm conteimplating a party of multiple Bishops, with different builds. Something like:
* Elf, Int/Pie. This is the caster focused bishop. who focuses on being good at magic, to the expense of other stats.
* Felpurr, Int/Spd. This is the fast bishop, choosing Felpurr for fast Snake Speed aquisition (level 13) while still being able to use shields and Snakeskin Boots.
* Elf (?), Int/Sen. This character would be the Artifacts/Mythology/(Communications?) character, while being good at Psionics.
* Dwarf, Str/Dex or Str/Int. A frontline Battle Bishop.

Perhaps round the party out with a (battle) Priest and a Valkyrie to get a usable front line.

But there's some mice items that Humans can't equip. For example:
* Fey Ring: +10 Speed (good for fast bishop), +20 Stealth (good for keeping the low HP bishop alive)
* Ring of Beasts: +10 Senses (good for fast bishop), +10 Mythology (you *do* want to know which realm the enemies are weak against, right?)

Neither of which a Human can equip.

The Fey Ring is definitely farmable, though the chance of getting it is low, and some of the enemies that can drop it are quite dangerous.

The Ring of Beasts shouldn't be too hard to get. The creatures that can drop it are neutral by default, but can be turned hostile without directly attacking them, and are the dominant creatures in the area. (Do the Rattkin respawn?)

There's also the factors of resistance and that sometimes the right racial choice can get you expert skills significantly sooner. For example, a Felpurr Bishop cab get Snake Speed at level 13; Fairy even earlier, at 12. By contrast, a Human won't get that until level 17, which for me means that I'll get her some Snakeskin Boots before she can fully benefit from them. Getting the skill earlier means it has more chances to grow, especially for something like Snake Speed whose growth is apparently unaffected by your actions.

Choosing a non-Bishop specialist caster has its advantages that I discussed before. In the case of a Priest, for example:
* No need to waste points on Intelligence, Dexterity, or Senses, if I don't need those stats for the build. (It's unlikely that I'll want all three, unless the build involves a class change.)
* Start with 10/11 Divinity before bonuses. Put 5 in at level 1, 3 in for levels 2-4, and you have 24 without having to cast a single spell, which becomes 30 with the primary skill bonus. Next level up, if it's in Priest or Bishop, will allow for Armorplate and Magic Screen to be learned. (I double-checked; the primary skill bonus doesn't change until *after* you pick your level-up spell(s).
* Also, more HP and faster leveling, not to mention prayer.

Valkyrie's advantages over Bishop are significant, due to the class being designed for filling a very different role:
* Far more HP
* Better attack rating, so gets more attacks and swings earlier
* Significantly better equipment options, being able to use almost anything a Fighter can use (the Chieftain's Scepter being the only exception I'm aware of, and that weapon requires killing a friendly NPC and isn't that great damage-wise), not to mention having a gender restriction (male only)), and having access to Polearms, which are one of the best weapon types. This includes the Infinity Helm (absurd HP//Stamina/SP regen) and the Golden Breastplate (15% resistance).
* Primary skill bonus in Polearms, so more accuracy and easier time getting extra attacks and swings. (By contrast, Bishops can't even get that skill, even though there's one weapon of that type they can use.)
* Cheat Death as an added bonus.
* For all that, the only drawback that's not related to spellcasting is not having the bonus to Artifacts.

With a Mythology skill of 100 (easily obtained by normal combat), you should be able to figure out enemies' weaknesses.

Yes, the Rattkin respawn. Last party, I got my Bard a Ring of the Road, and my Gadgeteer Tinker's Carryall Bracers, from farming the respawning Rattkin in the 6th Bough.

I consider myself a somewhat honorable W8 player, and try to increase skills fairly. However, there are a few skills where I draw the line:

Iron Will: There is no way any reasonable player would allow themselves to be pounded repeatedly by enemy casters; Opening the Lower Monastery Coffin is the only way.

Snakespeed: I figured something out last game that nobody else would tell me. Just taking an action counts towards Snakespeed's rolls for a skill increase. Even defending, then, counts towards a skill increase. So, if you just stand there, forever, defending (wiping all but one enemy out), that one enemy will attack, forever, until it passes out. You can just stand there, and max out Snakespeed.

Sounds like something that could be done AFK. Just get some HP regen on someone, make sure the enemy can't attack anyone who doesn't have HP regen, have everyone defend, and turn on continuous mode. Then, you don't even need to be sitting at the computer.

This sort of thing feels like it's not in the spirit of the game. (Unlike, say, one particular boss in Candy Box 2 that has a lot of HP and no attacks, making it basically an AFK fight.)

W8 was developed back in the day when everybody weren't panzies. Remember how hard NES games were? Nowadays, every game has to have a tutorial, and everybody gets a participation trophy (I saw a YouTube video where, if you lose a stage enough times, you get a special Mario suit, which makes you invincible. Seriously, you can't make this up).

My rant about kids over, yes, W8 was strange in that regard. In order to max SnakeSpeed from 99 to 100 skill, you would have to stand still for like 5K rounds. Good times.

I don't think that assessment is accurate. (Aside from the fact that I dislike how you're calling everybody "panzies".)

Wizardry 8 was released in 2001.

Compare this to Final Fantasy 7, released in 1997. FF7L
* Has tutorials.
* Actually locks menu options before completing said tutorial. (Most notably, the "Materia" option, so you can't equip the "Restore" materia as soon as you find it.)
* Is really easy; in fact, as a series veteran at that point, I could say it's even insultingly easy. It's like, the game offers many options, including things like status ailments that work (except on bosses, of course, though I believe there might be some exceptions), but it's all pointless because the game isn't difficult enough to need them; you can get through with just Restore+All (a combination obvious to any RPG veteran) and maybe some summon spells (which are just glorified damage spells), using limit breaks when they come up. (Unlike Wizardry 8, where build choices actually matter and affect the playstyle, or even Final Fantasy 5.)
* Also poorly balanced, and lacks many of the interesting abilities found in earlier entries, most notably FF5.
* Is filled with flashy cutscenes that don't improve the gameplay at all. There's the FMV sequences, as well as excessively long summon animations, some of which can be timed to be something like 45 seconds or more. The worst example may be one of the final boss's attacks, which (in versions other than the original JP release) has a 2 minute (!) animation, showing great destruction on an inter-planetary scale, yet it's not actually capable of killing anyone in your party (it does % based damage).

(On the other hand, maybe Wizardry 8 should have had a final boss theme more like Final Fantasy 7's, something that really feels like the fate of the universe depends on the outcome of that fight, rather than just using the same battle themes that you've heard the rest of the game.)

I could also point out that Baldur's Gate, released in 1998, also has a tutorial. (While that game has other issues, at least it doesn't have the issue of being too easy that FF7 has.) Then again, even FF5 has a tutorial, but it's optional, and the game manages to be challenging enough for your party build to matter.

Reminds me of the SaGa 3 remake. To get the Raisera spell (party-wide revive + 50% heal), you have to have an Esper cast Raise (single target revive + 25% heal) or Esuna (cure status ailments) during combat a total of around 160 times. (It's a good thing that Raise can target living characters.)

By the way, I believe the math behind getting that last point of Snake Speed is something like this:
* Chance of a skill increase check each round is apparently 50%.
* At a skill of 99, that check is 1% likely to succeed. (At 100 base speed, the chance would be 1%, but divide that by 2 because it's an expert skill, then there's apparently a minimum 1% chance.)
* You need 8 skill increase checks to pass.
* Simple math reveals that approximately 1600 rounds need to pass to get that last skill point.

There are easy nintendo games. Like Kirby, and, somewhat, Metroid. (I'd also say that some Master System games are somewhat easy: like Phantasy Star.) Though that does remind me of one person who found the NES Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden games to be easier than SMB. (Even I think SMB is a harder game than it needs to be.) I like to joke that Brian Moriarty ruined game difficulty in 1990. (Fun game though.)

What counts as a tutorial? Some call the first floor of Proving Grounds a tutorial. Let alone manuals and attract screens. And then there are games like Knights of the Chalice 2, wherein the optional tutorial is harder than the main campaign.

Not every game has an achievement for starting the game, you know.

Mario started that with New Wii, right? It's just a natural progress of things like old Epyx games allowing you to skip levels if you fail repeatedly (e.g. Chip's Challenge and Battle Bugs), and god mode cheats in classic DOS games. Debug codes can be a great way to learn levels a little quicker.. Sometimes the best way to find out the obscure sequence required to reach the secret exit in a user-generated Doom II map is to open it up in an editor. (Some puzzle games are built like this.)

I remember how my brother got stuck on some elevator boss. But he also beat Borderlands with the starter gun and got to the final boss in Horizon: Zero Dawn without upgrading weapons. My sister finds that cutscene funny, because he "does the math." Shame that moar cinematic is how games generally went. (And I say that as someone who enjoyed Metal Gear Solid 4.) I forget who said it, but unpausable cutscenes are almost as much of a sin as unskippable cutscenes.

This all reminds me of the different views on difficulty meme that compares Kojima, Miyazaki, and Kawazu quotes.

Despite the game being what it is: Second Armageddon is a great piece for a final boss.