It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
Wizardry series[Wizardry 8[ Expert Skill Party(30 posts)(30 posts)
(30 posts)
Pages:
1
2
This is my favourite topic
Posted June 07, 2024
Just thought of another idea for a constrained Wizardry 8 build, though this time I expect it to result in a balanced party.

Rules are as follows:
* Every expert skill must be covered by some party member. (For example, somebody must get Power Strike, somebody must get Iron Will, and so on.)
* Every character must get at least 1 expert skill.
* These above requirements must be met in a timely manner, unless there is a very good reason. (I'm thinking by level 12 for the first skill, and 18 for the second.)
* If there is a (non-rare) item that boosts an expert skill, it must be acquired and equipped by a character who has that skill. (If more than one of the item is acquired, extras can be given to characters who don't have that skill.)
* All character builds must be reasonable.
* Every character must make good use of the expert skill(s) they get. So, no using a non-caster (arguably not even a hybrid) for Power Cast, no Power Strike on a non-melee character, characters with Iron Skin or Reflextion should go in the front ranks, and so on).

So, in thinking of a party that would satisfy those restrictions and there's some things that are clear:
* Caliban's Cuirass boosts Iron Skin and is Bard only, so a Bard with Iron Skin is necessary. Note that this character will be a frontliner, because Iron Skin isn't that useful for characters in the back (unless the party gets surrounded).
* Eagle Eye Bow boosts Eagle Eye and is Ranger only, so a Ranger is going to be necessary. This character is going to need to focus on ranged combat (to put Eagle Eye to good use), and will also equip the Helazoid Pendant. (That's a total of +20 to Eagle Eye.)
* Amulet of Nebdar (Power Cast) doesn't have any constraints on who can equip it, but the skill really needs a full caster (but maybe not a Priest).
* Snakeskin Boots (Snake Speed) can be used by many (not all) classes, but it's really most useful for casters that can equip it, so the non-Priest full caster shouldn't be a Mage or Psionic. (But we want to cover Wizardry, so maybe bring in a Bishop or Samurai, or have more than one full caster.)
* I'm not aware of any non-rare items for Power Strike (needs melee character), Reflextion (also needs melee character, and not the same character as Iron Skin), or Iron Will (likely needs to be a Priest).

Any thoughts on this?
Posted June 09, 2024
This is assuming that you won't create an optimized party. Said characters won't always be perfect. For example, you want your Fighter to max Strength and Dexterity first, then Speed and Senses. Same with all other non-casters.
Posted June 09, 2024
avatar
RChu1982: This is assuming that you won't create an optimized party. Said characters won't always be perfect. For example, you want your Fighter to max Strength and Dexterity first, then Speed and Senses. Same with all other non-casters.
The way I see it, there is no "then Speed and Senses". Those stats may get some points later on (though Speed isn't that important for non-casters), but their expert skills won't appear before the game is over (or I get bored with that party).
Posted June 10, 2024
This is where we differ. I pour my heart and soul into creating powerful parties, which may or may not ascend until level 35-40.

You create throwaway parties.
Posted June 12, 2024
Arguably, I'm walking the walk, not just talking.

My Fighter and Rogue are getting very powerful in Arnika, before the game catches up to me. The party's average level is 25, which forces the game to create level 18 Savant Destroyers, 21 Savant Slashers, and level 22 Savant Minion to fight me. This is a good thing, as I can get great experience and skill ups.

Once the party's average level reaches a critical level (I'm guessing around level 26 or 27), you will no longer get the best spawns; The game gives you random Savant machines during daytime (at night, it's always trash Higardi Rogues). You could wind up fighting level 6 Savant Guards. At least they're good for skill training.
Posted June 12, 2024
I've done some back of the napkin work on parties that get every expert skill. Yes, it does become obvious that it's rather gimmicky. Iron will seems to make more sense for a party-wide strategy. And increasing pie past a certain doesn't make too much sense even for a hybrid. Nevertheless, the making use of expert skill boosting items makes it far more interesting. Have to be mindful of any attribute decreases on items.

I've always preferred speed to senses, but I don't run bards. Senses isn't important for melee combat, and if one wants to snipe, unlocking eagles eyes quickly is the best course. If one is going dex/str, then one could go spd/vit for an earlier third attack and more c.c. Of course, neither speed nor senses are that important, making Wiz8's issues more blatant. The extra AC from speed isn't too shabby for a caster, true.
Posted June 13, 2024
Powerstrike is great for everybody; Melee combat is king/queen against bosses. Even Bishops can be smacking bosses with their Staves of Doom.

Powercast is only good for full casters, not hybrids who suffer -4 caster level, and have other stats to work on. Intelligence is almost worthless on its own, and PC is debatable for many classes.

Iron Will is ok; Magic resistance can be made up for by Magic Screen, and Element and Soul Shield in certain situations. Maxing Piety comes with a high opportunity cost.

Iron Skin is only useful for front-line characters, although damage resistance can be gained by Body of Stone.

Reflextion is useful for anybody, although more useful for characters that actually have to fight in short range combat. Your weaker casters should be protected from short range combat, but can still be hit by ranged attacks; It's probably best to protect them with Guardian Angel and Bless.

Snakespeed is useful for anybody, and can be cheesed, even if gotten very late. Just fight a group of low-level enemies that aren't a threat to the party (no Higardi Rogues, as they can run away). Kill all but one enemy, and let that one enemy hit your front-line character until they pass out, for thousands of rounds (possibly a day of game time will pass). Congratulations, you have maxed SnakeSpeed!

Eagle Eye is only useful for ranged attackers. To be honest, magic falls off on Ascension Peak, so all party members should get this skill.
Post edited June 14, 2024 by RChu1982
Posted August 12, 2024
Overall, getting to the relevant Expert Skills for my characters is always a part of my plan for characters, so this seems like a reasonable plan. I max the stats I need to get the first two. Usually by the time I get to 100 in my first stat, one of the main skills I was working on is over 75, so I can afford to invest in the skill points for it.

However, planning to get all 7 skills though is a bit tricky. Iron Skin is one of those skills that is nice but isn't normally necessary. A lot of people don't bother with Iron Will either.

* Power Strike is my primary goal for any character who fights mainly in melee. The way Defense works in this game is that you have a chance to hit but then armor also reduces damage and you have a chance to penetrate it. Not having Power Strike at high levels means your weapons may be not dealing enough damage.

* Power Cast is similar to Power Strike but for casters. Since high level monsters often have resistances above 100%, you often need to really overload offensive spells for them to work. So basically anyone that will use a lot of offensive spells needs this. Priests not as much as the others since a lot of their spells are defensive, but still helpful for a pure priest. If you are powertraining your magic skills then you probably don't actually need to invest level-up points into this as it will advance pretty fast.

* Iron Will isn't necessary for any particular build, but since magic status effects are often the worst thing that can happen to you, Iron Will is welcome on any build. Sadly I usually can only afford it on a caster who is maxing PIE for more spell points. But a Lord or Valkyrie or even a Bishop is just as valid for that as a Priest.

* Iron Skin is nice to have, though by the time you get it your guys probably have decent HP and don't necessarily need it. If I understand correctly, an Iron Skin of 100 adds 25% resistance to weapon damage. Might be very useful for a bard who has lighter armor, and can use the Stamina points of a high-VIT character. If you want to do this a Lizardman Bard will start the game with a VIT of 70. He can't afford to put points in it at level 2, but starting at level 3 put max points into it and you unlock Iron Skin at level 12. Power Strike would come 3 levels later.

* Reflextion grants extra AC which is always helpful, and DEX is one of the stats you are going to improve for any weapon combatant anyway. Any Rogue or ranged guy should get this sooner or later. One thing about Reflextion is that it is easy to power train if you have a spot where you can reliably get attacked for low damage and have a regeneration item like a healing amulet. For instance, the jail cell with the roaches in the monstery.

* Snake Speed adds to your initiative bonus. Useful for anyone, but especially important for primary casters. You want to be able to throw up an element shield and/or a soul shield before the monsters get to throw spells. A bishop could do either but if you don't have a bishop then you probably need two guys with this.

* Eagle Eye is like Power Strike but for ranged combat. Anyone specializing in ranged combat should use this. SEN is important for ranged combatants because STR doesn't improve the chance to hit with ranged weapons.

-----

So... I see you also want to use gear that boosts the same expert skills. That specifically means Bard and Ranger.

* Looks like you have already picked a bard for Iron Skin... see my comment about lizardman. Make her female for the Stamina items. I wouldn't normally build this way, but the super-high stamina score will be good for using those instruments. Also max out STR which will follow a bit behind. Mook is a decent alternative and my Mook Bard started level 1 as a fighter.

* A Mook Ranger probably has the best starting SEN of anyone for the Eagle Eye skill. Presumably will also get to the Reflextion skill around the same time. Their Alchemy skill won't be that great (unless you start as an alchemist at level 1 and switch to ranger at level 2). Maxing SEN and DEX first is normally the way to go for a pure ranged character.

* A faerie character would be good for Snake Speed as they start with a good SPD. Presumably some kind of caster. Possibly a Bishop. In my current game I have a Faerie Bishop who started at level 1 as a Mage to get all the realm skill bonuses. She got Snake speed a little bit before Power Cast. Yes, you want to max INT and SPD on such a character.

* Any melee-type character should be going for Power Strike, so that's not too hard.

* In my current game I have two characters with Iron Will... a Bishop (I have 2 Bishops in this party) and a Lord. My Bishop with Iron Will is an elf who started level 1 as an Alchemist and also has INT maxed. The Lord would probably be a better fighter with DEX instead of PIE but they get less magic points, and more magic points also means more chances to train magic skills. He will develop DEX later. I would probably go with Dwarf or Dracon for that, though you can get the most PIE from a Rawulf (but with lower STR). Actually Lizardman Priest 1 to Lord can be surprisingly good; the realm skills can mitigate his resistance penalties. Consider starting at level 1 as a priest. Valkyrie works just as well.

* I would avoid a Ninja because their starting stats are really spread out and so they never have any particularly good stats at level 1, and they take longer to level up.
avatar
RChu1982: Snakespeed is useful for anybody, and can be cheesed, even if gotten very late. Just fight a group of low-level enemies that aren't a threat to the party (no Higardi Rogues, as they can run away). Kill all but one enemy, and let that one enemy hit your front-line character until they pass out, for thousands of rounds (possibly a day of game time will pass). Congratulations, you have maxed SnakeSpeed!
A good tip about powertraining Snake Speed! Thanks!
Post edited August 12, 2024 by drpetrov
Posted August 12, 2024
avatar
RChu1982: This is where we differ. I pour my heart and soul into creating powerful parties, which may or may not ascend until level 35-40.

You create throwaway parties.
Okay, I feel like you are being needlessly rude here.
avatar
RChu1982: Arguably, I'm walking the walk, not just talking.
Anyone can make a super-party if they grind their characters out until level 40. You can finish the game much earlier if you want.
Posted August 12, 2024
avatar
drpetrov: * Power Strike is my primary goal for any character who fights mainly in melee. The way Defense works in this game is that you have a chance to hit but then armor also reduces damage and you have a chance to penetrate it. Not having Power Strike at high levels means your weapons may be not dealing enough damage.
Armor doesn't actually reduce damage in this game; only damage resistance, an uncommon trait, does.
Posted August 12, 2024
Yes armor does not effect dmg results of a single hit, but in the big picture it certainly does

The game 1st checks whether an attack hits the target at all, depending on targets evasion AC,
attackers attributes/skill and lvl and last not least a big portion of RNG
If the attck roll vs evasion AC misses you get "missed" in message window when verbose combat messages are ON,
else a check vs the targets penetration AC occurs, on success we see dmg, on fail we see "no penetration".

So under the line a high penetration AC will result in more "no penetration" results, i.e. less attacks causing dmg.
That is, unless a ninja uses a thrown weapon in which case the game skips the roll vs penetration.
Posted August 12, 2024
avatar
dtgreene: Armor doesn't actually reduce damage in this game; only damage resistance, an uncommon trait, does.
Well okay, my bad, I used the wrong term. What I was talking about was monsters. Technically they don't have armor, they have damage resistance instead.

So power strike is important as a way to get through that.
Posted August 12, 2024
avatar
townltu: Yes armor does not effect dmg results of a single hit, but in the big picture it certainly does

The game 1st checks whether an attack hits the target at all, depending on targets evasion AC,
attackers attributes/skill and lvl and last not least a big portion of RNG
If the attck roll vs evasion AC misses you get "missed" in message window when verbose combat messages are ON,
else a check vs the targets penetration AC occurs, on success we see dmg, on fail we see "no penetration".

So under the line a high penetration AC will result in more "no penetration" results, i.e. less attacks causing dmg.
That is, unless a ninja uses a thrown weapon in which case the game skips the roll vs penetration.
Worth noting that AC, whether from armor or other sources, only matters if the difference between the attacker's to-hit and the target's AC isn't too big. If it's large, attacks will either almost always hit or almost always miss, and a few points of AC (if it's not enough to put it into range) isn't going to affect things. This doesn't tend to come up too much in Wizardry 8 (maybe if you go overboard with AC; reflection 100 + stealth 100 + Light Shield + best heavy armor (possible with a class change) would definitely be), but it is something to consider, and a drawback of this approach that does affect other games. (In Elminage Gothic's late postgame, AC becomes pointless except for Brawlers and Ninja, who are the only ones whose AC continues to scale indefinitely with level (expected level at the end of postgame: over 300). You also see this sort of issue in Baldur's Gate 2's expansion, as another example.)

avatar
dtgreene: Armor doesn't actually reduce damage in this game; only damage resistance, an uncommon trait, does.
avatar
drpetrov: Well okay, my bad, I used the wrong term. What I was talking about was monsters. Technically they don't have armor, they have damage resistance instead.

So power strike is important as a way to get through that.
I believe most monsters don't have any damage resistance, and that the exceptions tend to be obvious.
Post edited August 12, 2024 by dtgreene
Posted August 12, 2024
A handy page about Expert Skills:
https://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/recovered/flamestryke/wizardry8/charinfow8/skills-expert.html
Posted August 12, 2024
avatar
dtgreene: Armor doesn't actually reduce damage in this game; only damage resistance, an uncommon trait, does.
avatar
drpetrov: ...
What I was talking about was monsters. Technically they don't have armor, they have damage resistance instead.
...
A Wiz8 monster can have up to 7 different regions of its body assigend as potential target of a physical attack.
Each of these regions can have an individual penetration AC assigned,
each with its own % chance to be hit by a physical attack.
The "chance to be hit by an attack"-sum of all assigned areas must add up to 100%,
else CF will complain and not allow to save the monsters data
(not sure if game will crasc if you do it with a hex editor, honestly idc)

A monster also has an evasion AC assigned,
which is independant from penetration AC(s) and counts for the whole monster.

Finally monsters can have dmg resistance assigned,
which reduces the dmg of physical attacks by the assigned percentage.


To get an idea on the numbers, and what they probably tell,
use Wiz8 v1.0 exe and required satellite files, in conjunction with cmwz8tr.exe.
Find a dld link at postcount in the "Downloads and Helpful Links" Sticky of the "wizardry series" subforum.
Check the included readme for more details. Note the warning about overwriting .DBS files!
iirc [CTRL]+[C] activates the message output of combat calculations, but dont count on that.
Pages:
1
2
This is my favourite topic
Community
Wizardry series[Wizardry 8[ Expert Skill Party(30 posts)(30 posts)
(30 posts)