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Wizardry seriesWhat the h*** Japan!?(63 posts)(63 posts)
(63 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 24, 2015
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painocus: And since this is going off-topic... um... here is another marginally relevant info-dump:
The Wizardry Summoner game is sometimes considered an Wizardry Gaiden off-shoot (although as far as I know it is not made by any of the same people as the Gaiden games) for apparently basing it's content on those. In particular Japanese reviewers like to complain it ripped-off Gaiden II (which is a rather absurd criticism since Gaiden II itself just "ripped-off" Wizardry V).

Anyways, in addition to the Wizardry V/early-Gaiden standards it has a Summoner class which works differently from any other Summoner class in the series. Unlike Wizardry IV or Wizardry Empire/Elminage (where you have your standard adventurer party and one addition party-slot reserved just for summons) Wiz.S. puts your summoned monsters straight into the same party as your summoner(s). In effects this means that the fewer adventurers you have in the party the more slots you have open for summons. Just send out a summoner alone and you can walk around with five summoned monsters at a time, bring five adventurers and you can only have one summon with you, fill your party with six adventurers and having a summoner in your party at-all would be useless since you don't have the room to summon anything, etc. Summon spells are also learned from "capturing" monsters rather than the shrines of Empire and Elminage.

It's an interesting mechanic, but sadly the game (at-least the GBA version) had a reputation of being horribly unbalanced. That being said; the reviews that say this often also claim that you can only either have a one-summoner-party or a six-adventurers-party, which is flat out and obviously wrong. So I'm a bit inclined to doubt them, but I haven't played the game enough to make up my own opinion on the balance. It did seem much easier than the average Wizardry game though.

English reviews seemed to have liked it at-least. (The game was going to be released in the West, as Wizardry: The Summoning but was canceled right before release, after review-copies had already been sent out. The game's Amazon-Uk page is still up.)

Hopefully this is interesting to someone.
There is actually another Wizardry game where summons go directly into your standard party (and more importantly, are controllable): Wizardry 4 Arrange.

A game called Wizardry: New Age of Llylgamyn was released for the Japanese PlayStation (and apparently Sega Saturn and PC versions exist). This game contained 3 games: Scenario #4 Classic (the Wizardry 4 we know and love, with a few little differences (most notably, an automap that is retained even past Game Over)), Scenario #5 (Wizardry 5, but note that BACORTU is broken in this version; it doesn't work), and a new game, Scenario #4 Arrange (which is what I call Wizardry 4 Arrange).

In Wizardry 4 Arrange, when you step on a pentagram, you may choose to summon 5 monsters to accompany Werdna. (Note that you can choose not to use a pentagram that you just stepped on.) These 5 monsters are then treated as ordinary party members, which are controllable in combat, and can be ordered to cast spells outside of combat. The game is otherwise based of Wizardry 4, with the maps being almost identical. There is some extra text (in Japanese only, unfortunately) to make puzzle solutions a bit more clear, and some items (like the Black Candle) have no break chance in Wizardry 4 Arrange.

Note that the other 2 games can be set completely to English, and I recommend doing so because of the wordplay in the games, much of which is likely untranslatable.

By the way, Bard's tale 2 and 3 also have party members and summons share slots, but you can't control summons in those games.
Posted November 24, 2015
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waltc: I agree about the "speed racer" school of anime--would never buy a game with that style of graphics. They've never appealed to me--even as a child I never cared for them. I don't like cartoon graphics at all in computer games and won't buy them--even Borderlands was far too cartoonish for my tastes. It's just a personal preference.
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Sarisio: It just so happened that people, who dislike "cartoon" graphics and Japanese approach, usually use their personal preference to bash those "cartoon"games, e.g. Torchlight II - I saw a lot of people bashing it for its artstyle and strongly asking developers to change it.

On other side, I never saw people bashing "realistic" games for not having "cartoon" graphics.

Surely there might be exceptions to both rules, it is just general observation. Just like with this thread, which didn't avoid having some people come and show their dislike of Japanese games.
Why shouldn't one bash the games if the artstyle if terrible?
Personally I like both cartoon style (like most older games, Might&Magic 1-5 and HoMM 1-2), as well as realistic style.
But cartoony and anime is not the same.


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waltc: I agree about the "speed racer" school of anime--would never buy a game with that style of graphics. They've never appealed to me--even as a child I never cared for them. I don't like cartoon graphics at all in computer games and won't buy them--even Borderlands was far too cartoonish for my tastes. It's just a personal preference. People today have to learn that it's A-OK to have personal preferences. It's fine to not like something and fine to state why you don't like it. It's a mark of clear intelligence, I think, when people know what they like or don't like and can tell you why...;)
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painocus: People's problem with what he said wasn't that they disagreed with his preference, but that he stated completely incorrect things about the Japanese Wizardry games that a quick google-search could dispel. Therefor his comments seems to be more out of laziness and/or blind prejudice than intelligence.
Actually I didn't comment on the Japanese Wizardries, but on Japanese games in general. It is still my impression that most of them have anime artwork, a spikey haired punk with an oversized sword as the protagonist and lote of little girls in skimpy clothing (why the hell are the Japanese so afraid of adults?).

I already know the Japanese versions of Wiz 1-5 have decent graphics, but I checked the other Jap Wizardries on Mobygames, but after a quick check the only game I saw with decent artwork was Tale of the Forsaken Land.
Post edited November 24, 2015 by PetrusOctavianus
Posted November 24, 2015
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painocus: People's problem with what he said wasn't that they disagreed with his preference, but that he stated completely incorrect things about the Japanese Wizardry games that a quick google-search could dispel. Therefor his comments seems to be more out of laziness and/or blind prejudice than intelligence.
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PetrusOctavianus: Actually I didn't comment on the Japanese Wizardries, but on Japanese games in general. It is still my impression that most of them have anime artwork, a spikey haired punk with an oversized sword as the protagonist and lote of little girls in skimpy clothing (why the hell are the Japanese so afraid of adults?).

I already know the Japanese versions of Wiz 1-5 have decent graphics, but I checked the other Jap Wizardries on Mobygames, but after a quick check the only game I saw with decent artwork was Tale of the Forsaken Land.
That was not what you said:
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PetrusOctavianus: All the Japanese Wizardries have anime artowork, so nothing is lost as far as this Wizardry fan is concerned.
And Tale of the Forsaken Land has one of the most animey artstyles in the series. The only ones more animey are the Xth games and some of the Renaissance games. And the example I gave in my post weren't from any of the Wiz 1-5 ports. (As I said in the post itself. Last time I checked "The Five Ordeals" was not the title of any of the original Wizardries).

Why would you randomly start talking about "Japanese games in general" if you didn't think that reflected on the Japanese Wizardry games?

And:
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PetrusOctavianus: Also, I've got the impression that Japanese games in general are highly linear, revolves around a "chosen one" (usually a a spikey haired punk with a huge sword), and you pick up companions (usually 8 year old girls in skimpy outfits) instead of creating your own party.
Is not remotely accurate to begin with. I can't think of any games that fit all of these. The chosen one, spiky-haired punk and huge sword seems to be a mash-up of various Final Fantasy games, but I have no idea about the party-replaced-by-8-year-old-companions one. So your impression still seems like laziness and/or blind prejudice to me.
Post edited November 24, 2015 by painocus
Posted November 24, 2015
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painocus: So your impression still seems like laziness and/or blind prejudice to me.
Yeah, all the screenshots I've seen of Japanese games are all lies, right? And yes, I have prejudice against games where the characters are all children and the artists seem to be pedophiles.

But if the Japanese Wizardry games (not the remakes) really do have non-anime graphics, then I retract my comment, and admit my error.
My impression of Japanese games in general still stands, though.
Post edited November 24, 2015 by PetrusOctavianus
Posted November 24, 2015
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dtgreene: In Wizardry 4 Arrange, when you step on a pentagram, you may choose to summon 5 monsters to accompany Werdna. (Note that you can choose not to use a pentagram that you just stepped on.) These 5 monsters are then treated as ordinary party members, which are controllable in combat, and can be ordered to cast spells outside of combat. The game is otherwise based of Wizardry 4, with the maps being almost identical. There is some extra text (in Japanese only, unfortunately) to make puzzle solutions a bit more clear, and some items (like the Black Candle) have no break chance in Wizardry 4 Arrange.
Interesting, I should check that out some time. Summoner is still different though in that you can have regular adventurers in the same party (and that summoner is just a regular class for one of these). Summoning in Summoner is also treated as regular spells and can be used anywhere (don't remember if you can do so while in combat though).

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dtgreene: Note that the other 2 games can be set completely to English, and I recommend doing so because of the wordplay in the games, much of which is likely untranslatable.
Yeah. I've heard the original Japanese releases of Wizardry IV is essentially unwinnable because so may hints are lost in translation, so I have never bothered with the Japanese ports of Wiz4 before.
Posted November 24, 2015
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PetrusOctavianus: But if the Japanese Wizardry games (not the remakes) really do have non-anime graphics, then I retract my comment, and admit my error.
My impression of Japanese games in general still stands, though.
Fair enough. I still think your impression of Japanese games in general (" where the characters are all children and the artists seem to be pedophiles") is plainly wrong though.

As far as non-anime visuals, the Gaiden and most of the Empire game are safe. The PSX Empire game might be too animey for you (although since you don't consider Tale of the Forsaken Land animey, it is a bit hard to judge your reaction). Stay away from Wizardry Xth and I doubt you will like the character sprites of most of the Renaissance games (Prisoners of the Lost City, Labyrinth of Lost Souls, Pledge of Life and Boukyaku no Isan) either. The monsters in the latter are fine though.

(I''ll post some comments on the other games and Elminage later, but I don't have time right now.)
Posted November 24, 2015
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painocus: As far as non-anime visuals, the Gaiden and most of the Empire game are safe. The PSX Empire game might be too animey for you (although since you don't consider Tale of the Forsaken Land animey, it is a bit hard to judge your reaction). Stay away from Wizardry Xth and I doubt you will like the character sprites of most of the Renaissance games (Prisoners of the Lost City, Labyrinth of Lost Souls, Pledge of Life and Boukyaku no Isan) either. The monsters in the latter are fine though.

(I''ll post some comments on the other games and Elminage later, but I don't have time right now.)
But aren't most/many of them console only?
Tried looking them up on Mobygames, but it doesn't even list Wizardry Empire or Elminage.
Posted November 25, 2015
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PetrusOctavianus: But aren't most/many of them console only?
Tried looking them up on Mobygames, but it doesn't even list Wizardry Empire or Elminage.
The PSX Wizardry Empire that I mentioned above got ported to Windows, with the animeness toned down a bit, as Wizardry Empire II Plus. (It's in Japanese, but there was a translation project going on at RPGcodex and romhacking.net earlier this year. Not sure how far it has gotten.)

Elminage Gothic was released on PC and is on Gog. It should be easy enough to find pictures from that, so I'll let you judge for yourself if it is "too anime" (Gog seems to have chosen some of the most animey sprites from the game, so that would at-least have you prepared for the "worst").

Two of the Wizardry Gaiden games, Prisoners of the Battles and Five Ordeals are made for PC. Aesthetically they are probably the ones that are going to be the most to your liking, but they are (as far as I know) only in Japanese. The picture I linked to earlier is from one of those and the other one looks more or less the same.

There is also Wizardry Chronicle which, apart from some of the monster sprites, looks quite ugly. It is also only in Japanese. (Here's a picture.)

Apart from that you are out of luck as far as playing any of these on a PC is concerned, save for emulation.
Post edited November 25, 2015 by painocus
Posted November 25, 2015
I think it's probably important to mention that the original Wizardry games, alongside the likes of original Ultima games were just as influential on the Japanese side of RPG development as they were on the Western side. That brand of hardcore, tile-based dungeon crawler still is decently popular over there and most of the modern games of that ilk come from Japan. The only "one of those games" from a western developer in recent memory that I can think of is Paper Sorcerer.

In the case of the Japanese Wizardry games specifically, I've heard from people who would know such things that some of them are solid old-school dungeon crawlers and some of them are mediocre. It always bummed me out a little that most of them take very little influence from later-era Wizardry (6-8), since that's the style of Wizardry that has always appealed to me most.
Posted December 13, 2015
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Dartpaw86: This series is HUGE in Japan, as they made over 20 sequels and many remakes (that are released in Japan only)

That is beyond ungrateful, we supply them with a great series, and in turn they horde the games they made to themselves.

Seriously this ticks me off so much...
Don't feel bad.
Many of these games (tried some on emulators) seem incredibly repetitive.
Posted December 13, 2015
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rob.liefeld: Don't feel bad.
Many of these games (tried some on emulators) seem incredibly repetitive.
Personally, I find simulators and some other genres quite repetitive and too formulaic, but I don't bash them because I don\\t really like those genres. Perhaps you simply don't enjoy the genre as whole, there is no need to make such generalizations.
Posted December 13, 2015
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rob.liefeld: Don't feel bad.
Many of these games (tried some on emulators) seem incredibly repetitive.
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Sarisio: Personally, I find simulators and some other genres quite repetitive and too formulaic, but I don't bash them because I don\\t really like those genres. Perhaps you simply don't enjoy the genre as whole, there is no need to make such generalizations.
I was talking about the japan-only wizardry games, not a whole genre. Wiz8 is one of my all time favorite games.
Posted December 13, 2015
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rob.liefeld: I was talking about the japan-only wizardry games, not a whole genre. Wiz8 is one of my all time favorite games.
I understand. Wizardry 8 is quite far from roots of the genre though.
Posted December 15, 2015
Despite preferring cartoonish or "real" graphics, jrpg´s often have a very different gameplay approach.
As said before, char building often is just a matter of combat skills.

However, I managed to avoid jrpgs for over 20 years of gaming. But the last years for some reason I got hooked..

In general they are well playable, without investing too much time in micro-management, inventory and so on.
For example if you are used to Etrian Odissey its hard to come back to older pc rpgs. Most things are well balanced in this series, the developers really do have experience with combat systems.You do have a quest log and so on. most things simply go really smart.

That´s what put me in and the last three year, since I´ve got my ds, I´ve invested around 200h in Etrian and about 400h in disgaea.

I come back to western prgs, if I have the desire for a good story and char building, but combat wise, the only one I know to have combats as deep as Etrian is ToEE and maybe Wizardry, but not as well balanced.
Post edited December 15, 2015 by Floid
Posted December 15, 2015
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Floid: Despite preferring cartoonish or "real" graphics, jrpg´s often have a very different gameplay approach.
As said before, char building often is just a matter of combat skills.

However, I managed to avoid jrpgs for over 20 years of gaming. But the last years for some reason I got hooked..

In general they are well playable, without investing too much time in micro-management, inventory and so on.
For example if you are used to Etrian Odissey its hard to come back to older pc rpgs. Most things are well balanced in this series, the developers really do have experience with combat systems.You do have a quest log and so on. most things simply go really smart.

That´s what put me in and the last three year, since I´ve got my ds, I´ve invested around 200h in Etrian and about 400h in disgaea.

I come back to western prgs, if I have the desire for a good story and char building, but combat wise, the only one I know to have combats as deep as Etrian is ToEE and maybe Wizardry, but not as well balanced.
Have you played Elminage Gothic? I find that the classes in that game are well-balanced enough that choosing a good party is rather difficult (16 classes for 6 characters and I have trouble finding bad classes to eliminate from the pool). The game also starts out easy and gets harder as you progress, a trait that should be more common than it is. (I should point out, however, that the game does get quite brutal, especially in the final bonus dungeon.)
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Wizardry seriesWhat the h*** Japan!?(63 posts)(63 posts)
(63 posts)