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RChu1982: Are you, ok, DT? I honestly didn't mean to piss you off, and I'm not speaking for Norway, but I don't think he meant any harm either. How are you doing with your characters?
I'd actually prefer my username not to be abbreviated that way because I don't want to be associated with a certain politician who happens to have those initials.

Also, I haven't been playing any game recently, and the game I've most recently been playing is actually SaGa Frontier 2, which is quite different, with the only similarity (other than both being RPGs) is that both games allow you to improve weapon and magic skills by use. For example, I can't tell you what levels my SaGa Frontier 2 characters are because the game does not use XP-based leveling in the first place! I also note that SaGa Fronter 2 doesn't have character creation; your party at any point is dictated by the story, as the game is told by little short stories that take place at different events during an 86-year period, and characters grow older and sometimes die as time passes.

As for my preferred party, I'll attach a couple images of it; they're taken from the Bard's Tale games, both taken during combat. (If only there were some way to port over that party to some Wizardry game...)

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RChu1982: I think it's only 36 or 37 spells each for the "pure" casters.
Specifically, It's 4 level 6 spells and 3 level 7 spells for each pure caster; if you save 2 spell picks, you can know every spell in one spellbook at level 18. Without saving spell picks, level 20 is possible.

(A Bishop who does not save spell picks would need to be level 37, while one who saves them would still need to be level 24 (25 if you don't use a Holy Water spellbook, but it's only available as a random drop from 2 unique non-respawning enemies, and one of them is an NPC you probably don't want to fight).)
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Post edited July 14, 2021 by dtgreene
I'm just worried that Z'Ant will figure out that I work for the Umpani. I better pay off He'Li right away. I always played both sides in my previous parties. I think I should soft save as soon as I join the Umpani at Balbrak, teleport to He'Li's, pay her off, then teleport to Z'Ant, and if he doesn't go hostile, I can hard save.
I plan on finishing this magic party before playing other games. W8 can be very addictive with the level ups and battles.
I just tangled with some nasties in Arnika at level 16/15(Bard&Gadgeteer/Casters): 2 level 21 Savant Slashers, with a few weak Savant Gunners. And right after that, 2 level 17 Savant Berserkers, with a few weak Savant Gunners again. There is definitely experience to be had hanging around Arnika. I'm farming the vendors for Magic Nectars before I set off again. At least if I run out of Magic Nectars on the AT Road, I can portal back to safety.
What are everybody's thoughts on "Miscellaneous/Generic" skills?
My Bard is focusing on Communication(a no brainer, as she gets points in it to start, and also gets a bonus to it).
My Psionic initially focused on Mythology, as it relies on Senses and Intelligence. It doesn't matter anymore, as everybody is a Mythology master, as I ground so much in the Monastery.
My Mage is focusing on Artifacts, because it relies on Intelligence and Senses. As my Mage started with the highest Intelligence(60) it made sense to allocate skill points into Artifacts for her.
My Gadgeteer is focusing on Locks and Traps, as she gets points into it upon creation(9 points), and she doesn't have much else to work on, besides Engineering, Ranged Combat, Bow, Sword, Shield, and Close Combat.
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RChu1982: What are everybody's thoughts on "Miscellaneous/Generic" skills?
My Bard is focusing on Communication(a no brainer, as she gets points in it to start, and also gets a bonus to it).
My Psionic initially focused on Mythology, as it relies on Senses and Intelligence. It doesn't matter anymore, as everybody is a Mythology master, as I ground so much in the Monastery.
My Mage is focusing on Artifacts, because it relies on Intelligence and Senses. As my Mage started with the highest Intelligence(60) it made sense to allocate skill points into Artifacts for her.
My Gadgeteer is focusing on Locks and Traps, as she gets points into it upon creation(9 points), and she doesn't have much else to work on, besides Engineering, Ranged Combat, Bow, Sword, Shield, and Close Combat.
Communication: I generally do Bard.
Mythology: I ignore this skill, as it rises fine on its own.
Artifacts: I sometimes raise it on someone so I can use the amulet that revives and has an Artifacts requirement, but otherwise don't worry about it too much. (Why are Resurrection Scrolls more expensive than Resurrection Powder? Way too many of the consumables are over-priced in this game.) The class that gets a bonus to this skill has too many important skills to worry about.
Locks & Traps: I generally do Gadgeteer, if I'm using one. The tricky part, however, is that I might not actually have a Gadgeteer until Arnika, which means I may need to use Posseur's Cap and Knock (picks) to deal with locks early. (I don't like the Thief class because I don't like the way Stealth works and how you can't turn it off.)
I don't bother with consumables, as you said, they're too inconvenient and expensive.
I always have a Gadgeteer and Bard in my party, because they use Stamina instead of magic, which replenishes much faster. I like the Rogue class, because he can backstab with the Bloodlust and Thieves' Dagger for a lot of damage. I agree with you on his Stealth ability, as it makes enemies target weaker characters.
Post edited July 21, 2021 by RChu1982
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RChu1982: I don't bother with consumables, as you said, they're too inconvenient and expensive.
Except for:
Magic Nectar: Handy for restoring MP, quite common (once you get past the early game), and are actually reasonably priced.
Resurrection Powder: Very useful if you don't have access to Resurrection via spell or charged item yet, or if everyone who can use such spell/charged item is dead. (If you have enough of this and some Valkyries in your party (ideally one who can revive via charged item or spell), you could even take a shortcut out of Trynton by walking off the path; just please don't do this on Iron Man mode.) Also, other status ailments can be cured by letting the character die and reviving them, so this can even replace Renewal Potions (which are expensive).
Potion of Restoration: Handy, as it restores HP, stamina, and cures status ailments. Particularly useful for curing disease before you get the spell. (Note that these are cheaper than Cure Disease potions; this shows that the developers really didn't pay enough attention to the pricing of consumables.)
Renewal Potion: Expensive, but allows you to cure Draining without letting the character die or using up a charge from a fountain. (Some fountains, like the one by Lord Braffit, have limited charges that are best saved for curing Draining or Disease.) Then again, it's cheaper to kill and revive the character, unless you have enough Alchemy to make these out of cheaper items. Also, since these are expensive, these also sell for a lot, making creating one via Alchemy an effective way to get lots of money for buying those spellbooks.

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RChu1982: I always have a Gadgeteer and Bard in my party, because they use Stamina instead of magic, which replenishes much faster.
It also depletes much faster. A Bard or Gadgeteer will quickly run out of stamina and fall unconscious, which results in missing turns even with stamina regen items (though they do help). Also, Gadgeteers don't have good options early in the game (unless you load a Wizardry 7 save that starts you in T'Rang territory, but then you don't start play with a Gadgeteer because the class doesn't exist in W7); hence, these days my preferred set-up is to not have a Gadgeteer until Arnika at the earliest, maybe Trynton. (It helps that Gadgeteers level up quickly, so a new level 1 Gadgeteer will catch up to the rest of the party fairly quickly (especially pre-level 11), and will surpass the level of any character who can cast spells normally.)

A conventional spellcaster, however, will take longer to run out of SP, especially if that caster is a Bishop.
Post edited July 18, 2021 by dtgreene
I'm running a glass cannon party, except for the Bard and Gadgeteer, who are both maxing Dexterity and Strength. At least they can use Swords. My 4 casters have maxed Speed for Snakespeed, and are at 95 Intelligence, and will have 100 Int at Trynton along with Powercast. So encumberance will become an issue if I give my casters too many Magic Nectars.
Bard and Gadgeteer: Dexterity and Strength, Speed and Senses, Vitality, Piety and Intelligence last, in that order. Powercast is completely worthless for them.
Casters: Speed and Intelligence, Senses and Piety, Vitality, Dexterity and Strength last, in that order. Powerstrike isn't going to help much with magic users.
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RChu1982: I'm running a glass cannon party, except for the Bard and Gadgeteer, who are both maxing Dexterity and Strength. At least they can use Swords. My 4 casters have maxed Speed for Snakespeed, and are at 95 Intelligence, and will have 100 Int at Trynton along with Powercast. So encumberance will become an issue if I give my casters too many Magic Nectars.
Bard and Gadgeteer: Dexterity and Strength, Speed and Senses, Vitality, Piety and Intelligence last, in that order. Powercast is completely worthless for them.
Casters: Speed and Intelligence, Senses and Piety, Vitality, Dexterity and Strength last, in that order. Powerstrike isn't going to help much with magic users.
Thing is that, from what I recall, you're using humans for your entire party, including your casters. Humans tend to have higher strength and vitality than the other races that are generally used as casters, and therefore will have more carrying capacity.

Magic Nectars weigh only .3 each, and you can keep extras in the bag so that the Bard and Gadgeteer can share the load. (It's worth noting that Mana Stones are much heavier, with a weight of 2.0, so if you're concerned about weight. Magic Nectar might be preferred even with the higher gold cost per use (even if you ignore recharging).)


Also, at the level you've reached, you should be able to just go grab some Robes of Rejuvenation from Ferro and put them on your spellcasters. With them, and with spreading out your SP use between the realms, you should be able to last a while before needing to rest, and in cases of long encounter-free stretches, might not even need to rest.
The Raxax areas and Bayjin are no go zones for me until I get to level 20 plus. I like to visit Crock first and get his good items, then grind in the Swamp on the Oozites(thankfully my Bard has Bloodlust, which is great for tougher melee enemies,) which give great experience, and of course avoid those annoying unicorn enemies. My Gadgeteer and Priest are almost at blue encumberance, as they have the heaviest armor available for them.
The Gadgeteer has the Tripleshot XBow and Quarrels, which are quite a bit lighter than Hunter Quarrels. And the Priest carries less Spike Stones than everybody else since more than 10 Stones or more than 10 Magic Nectars will put him in the blue encumberance. I gave all 4 casters Set/Return to Portal upon level up, so at least I can portal in and out when I start to get too many items.
I think I should set Portals: In Arnika, at the Trangporter, at Ferro, and at Ascension Peak eventually.
I guess I've reached what you call, a crucial level. My Bard and Gadgeteer are at level 17, and the casters are at level 16.
My Bard and Gadgeteer have each maxed Strength for Powerstrike, and Dexterity for Reflextion. They are now working on Speed and Senses.
My casters, as said before, are at 95 Intelligence, waiting for the free +5 from the Trynton Fountain, so that they don't waste points. They have all maxed Speed for Snakespeed. They are working on Senses and Piety.
I can run to Trynton, which I probably should, but hanging around Arnika has also been very profitable, because I'm getting level 17 Savant Berserkers, and level 21 Savant Slashers, which are giving a lot of experience. I would imagine that the AT Road will be very long and tedious, especially if I run into Geomancers, which cast damaging Earth magic. The higher the level, the better. I'm arguing with myself about proceeding vs. hanging around for levels.
I would guess that, as long as I'm getting good exp, I should hang around Arnika. Every level up means better matchups, more spell points, and more spell picks.
Post edited July 21, 2021 by RChu1982
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RChu1982: I guess I've reached what you call, a crucial level. My Bard and Gadgeteer are at level 17, and the casters are at level 16.
My Bard and Gadgeteer have each maxed Strength for Powerstrike, and Dexterity for Reflextion. They are now working on Speed and Senses.
My casters, as said before, are at 95 Intelligence, waiting for the free +5 from the Trynton Fountain, so that they don't waste points. They have all maxed Speed for Snakespeed. They are working on Senses and Piety.
I can run to Trynton, which I probably should, but hanging around Arnika has also been very profitable, because I'm getting level 17 Savant Berserkers, and level 21 Savant Slashers, which are giving a lot of experience. I would imagine that the AT Road will be very long and tedious, especially if I run into Geomancers, which cast damaging Earth magic. The higher the level, the better. I'm arguing with myself about proceeding vs. hanging around for levels.
I would guess that, as long as I'm getting good exp, I should hang around Arnika. Every level up means better matchups, more spell points, and more spell picks.
You should set a portal, run to Trynton for the fountain so you can start increasing Power Cast, then go back to Arnika so you can start boosting the skill. Or, get the Intelligence boost, then get the Horn of Prometheus and Renaissance Lute, so that you have them when you're ready to use them. (Or you could go get them as soon as your Bard and Gadgeteer are level 18; you definitely *don't* need to be level 20+ to explore those areas.)

Geomancers are not a problem, if you use PL7 Magic Screen, and you can add PL7 Elemental Shield to the mix in the first round. Plus, if you're lucky, you might get a ring that boosts Earth Magic by 10, which is great for an Alchemist with those Quicksand and Earthquake spells.

(Then again, it's probably a good idea to go through the T'Rang areas to get a few instruments and gadgets, like the Haste/Heal All instruments, and the Noxious Fumes/Guardian Angel Gadgets. The Heal All gadget is actually quite easy to get, and your level should be high enough to get the Superman gadget as well.)
the only down side I see is making the vampire chain because by the time he gets to the umpani caves he will be too high a level to spawn bats but its not a major issue for people that don't NEED to finish every quest
Post edited July 22, 2021 by ussnorway
Powercast increases VERY quickly on its own, probably it's the easiest skill to increase, because literally ANY spell you cast will work towards increasing it. I know it's an important skill to get for a caster, but it's not a huge hurry because it will be easy to play catch up.
I was more concerned with the other expert skills (Powerstrike, Reflextion, Snakespeed, Eagle Eye for non casters, and Snakespeed, Iron Will, and Eagle Eye for casters) because those skills increase more slowly than Powercast does.
I have found that, by my Bard using the Angel's Tongue for Bless, and the Piercing Pipes for Shrill Sound (it's starting to suck), I can increase Music pretty easily, and the same with the Gadgeteer using the Lightning Rod for Energy Blast (it's sucking as well). It's not so much for the damage, it's for the skill increases through practice. Once I get the better instruments and gadgets, it will be easy to use them. I think both Music and Engineering are in the 90s now.
I'm pretty sure the gadgets you're talking about (Superman and Heal All) involve a very difficult fight in the SE Wilderness temple that I hold off on, same with Nessie and Bayjin, until after level 25, possibly 30, when I have 4 expert skills, all the spells, and most all instruments and gadgets. I'm what you call a steamroller.
I already have a Vampire Bat Wing. I ground for so long in the Monastery that I managed to get a couple of packs of Vampire Bats to spawn, believe it or not. They also can spawn on the AT Road, but usually at night, I think. I'm pretty sure the day/night cycle has something to do with it (more bats and undead from the cemetary spawn at night). After about 20 years of playing this game on and off, I still learn new things.
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RChu1982: I'm pretty sure the gadgets you're talking about (Superman and Heal All) involve a very difficult fight in the SE Wilderness temple that I hold off on, same with Nessie and Bayjin, until after level 25, possibly 30, when I have 4 expert skills, all the spells, and most all instruments and gadgets. I'm what you call a steamroller.
The enemies in the SE Wilderness fight are in the upper teens, and the success rate of spells (in particular, Death Cloud) is heavily influenced by relative level, so once you're even just a few levels above them, the fight becomes pretty trivial, as spells are the main threat in this fight.

Also, the Heal All gadget can be obtained without triggering the fight. The enemies are too far away to start the battle, and even if that weren't the case, you could use fake combat to grab it (manually initiate combat, move close enough to grab the item, grab the item in the middle of your movement, then move out of sight before the round ends).

By the way, it sounds like you might enjoy a New Game + mode, which this game unfortunately doesn't have. (Has anybody ever made a utility to allow that? This would take your party, get rid of any event items, and place it in a new save with the world in its initial state.)