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Wizardry seriesW8 Magic Damage Party(281 posts)(281 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 31, 2021
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RChu1982: (I think the Hammer and Diamond Eyes are the only two off-hand Mace and Flail weapons, and the Hammer can't be equipped by a Bishop or Priest.)
There's also Nunchaka, which can only be used by Monk and Ninja.

I note that Priests and Bishops don't have the Dual Weapons skill open, so you can't train the skill as one of those classes, so the inability to use the Hammer isn't that big an issue.

Also, if you don't count the set location, the Diamond Eyes are extremely rare, I believe.

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RChu1982: Good for you if you can get past Gregor and the rats at low level. If you can somehow get onto Arnika Road at level 5 or lower, then you deserve the easy enemies that follow. I have a small counter-point, however. I just looked at Flamestryke's site *RIP*, and concluded that level sensors follow a 5-level pattern. For example, a party of level 1-5 will have any treasure greater than 500 gold removed from chests, a party of level 6-10 greater than 1000 gold, etc. This is not a big deal for the Arnika Road, as that is a low-level area. But the difference between level 5 and 6 is a treasure class list. I also noticed that for some reason, at level 5, I could not get the Higardi Bandits in the Upper Monastery to drop certain Bard items, namely Prospero's Cloak and Mercucio's Blade. Maybe it was bad luck. However, at level 6, I managed to make it happen. You never really know with RNG. As you said, being level 6, as opposed to level 5, when you first enter Arnika makes a big difference with treasures, you reach a new threshold, especially since there are so many treasure chests in Arnika.
Solution:
* Before going to Arnika Road, fight respawning enemies until the Bishop has 25,600 XP. (Ideally, would want to be able to get 30 Divinity at level 5, assuming no Priest in the party.)
* Go through Arnika Road at the low level, possibly leveling up there *after* the enemies have spawned.
* Before entering Arnika, level up to level 6. Priest learns Armorplate now, if not earlier. (Skip Magic Screen; that can be bought in Arnika.)
Post edited August 31, 2021 by dtgreene
Posted August 31, 2021
Thankfully, Element Shield and Soul Shield are not necessary in Arnika, as there are no magic-using enemies there(only various Higardi thieves and Savant machines). This allows a magic heavy party to focus on what they do best, magic offense without magic defense.
The focus, then, when faced with superior levels especially, is physical damage. I believe that I have covered that front. The Bard and Gadgeteer have maxed Strength for Powerstrike, and Dexterity for Reflextion. They are working on Speed and Senses next, for better Initiative, better chance to hit, and more swings and attacks. Their weapon choices, I believe, are the best available. Sword and Shield, alternating between Bloodlust, as so to quickly build up their Close Combat, Sword, and Shield skills. When at range, these two use the Tripleshot Crossbow, alternating who doesn't have Bloodlust, for the most number of attacks to train Ranged Combat and Bow skills. The Bard uses her Instruments, and the Gadgeteer uses her Gadgets, to train.
The casters have all maxed Speed for Snakespeed, and are at 95 Intelligence, waiting for the Trynton Fountain for that +5 to Intelligence. They are working on Senses and Piety, so they can move as quickly as possible, and have the most SPs to do so. The Priest has a Stun Mace with a Round Shield. He's mediocre in combat, able to hold the flank with a good Guardian Angel on him. The Alchemist is protected in the center, with an extended range, two-handed Quarterstaff swinging at enemies on all sides to train him for the Staff of Doom. The Psionic and Mage, weak as they are, refrain from melee combat, and permanently use Slings for KO% chance and damage from range. All 4 casters are using Slings, for now, so as not to waste their turns, and to potentially do damage, and a chance at KO%. Of course, they will be training all of their magic realms, when possible.
This is, what I believe to be the toughest MDP party available. Feel free to criticize.
Posted August 31, 2021
I'm not ignoring your party either. That's pretty smart, that you would hang out in the Upper Monastery, grinding various spawns, until your Bishop is a certain skill level. Then, you fight through Arnika Road at your lower level, before taking your level up before the gates of Arnika. I believe that, if you are at level 6 before entering Arnika, you will have greater potential, with the better treasure chest items. It's a good idea not to waste a spell pick on Magic Screen, when Braffit will sell that to you. Picking Armorplate is always a solid choice, that's what I did before leaving the Monastery.
Posted September 02, 2021
DTGreene, are you considering a MDP similar to mine? Or are you more of a hybrid player(having Lord/Valkyrie/Ranger/Samurai/Ninja/Monk?) You said you want a Bishop in your party, to cover whatever magic school isn't covered by your hybrids.
I have found that with my relatively fragile MDP, placement becomes all the more important. I don't have to worry about it with ranged enemies, as I can bomb them from long range. But when it comes to melee combat, I have found that I need to be more careful with placement. I should put my back to a wall, or fight from a doorway. If there are 3 or less melee enemies, then usually I can just face the enemy, and all 3 will attack the front PC. Therefore, I only need to Guardian Angel that one.
However, if there are 4 or more melee enemies, my flanks will also get attacked. As such, I have everyone not protected in the center carrying shields.
A lot of players will swear by this formation: Having nobody in the front, and all but the weakest spread out between the center, left, and right positions, with the weakest in the back.
I have found advantages to using the front formation, though. This keeps the majority of the enemies, if not all of them, busy with the toughest PC equipped with Bloodlust and GA cast on them. Also, in the more extreme example, those tough Savant Minion will only attack the front(protected) PC from extended range, keeping the rest of the party relatively safe. My party, except the Bloodlust character, can therefore skill up their Ranged Combat and either Throwing and Sling, or Bow skills.
It's working out pretty well. My level 20/19 MDP can do some decent physical damage, both melee and ranged, when the situation calls for it. Also, on the magic front, the party is doing decent, having level 7 spells able to be cast at PL2 safely, and level 6 spells able to be cast at PL 6 safely.
Posted September 02, 2021
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RChu1982: DTGreene, are you considering a MDP similar to mine? Or are you more of a hybrid player(having Lord/Valkyrie/Ranger/Samurai/Ninja/Monk?) You said you want a Bishop in your party, to cover whatever magic school isn't covered by your hybrids.
I did once use an MDP similar to yours, except that I believe I had a Bishop instead of the Gadgeteer.

Thing is, I really do like having a Bishop in may party, regardless of the other characters present; I just really like developing that class. It's nice having a character who can continue to develop their spells later in the game, when pure casters would otherwise cap out. Also, Bishops get more SP than other caster classes, as they can learn more spells, and each spell known provides extra SP; also, it's a lot easier for them to reach an SP bonus equal to 125 in a spellbook skill (the game adds 1/2 the second highest skill, 1/4 the third highest, and 1/8 the fourth highest to the highest skill, capped at 125, to determine SP). Furthermore, Bishops are more likely to have an attack spell the enemies aren't as resistant to, and can spread their SP use between the realms (though I still don't like the fact that all the learnable HP restoring spells are in the same realm).

Incidentally, I've decided I don't like Fighters in the later part of the game because melee attacks are, in general, too powerful, to the point where even characters in pure caster classes can put out good damage (especially with the Staff of Doom, or either Diamond Eyes or The Mauler if the character is a Priest/Bishop), and Fighters just do way too much damage with their Berserk attack option at that point.

Yes, Bishops can actually use the most powerful buyable weapon in the game (The Mauler); just mind the 50 Strength requirement (which I believe can still be managed without any level-up stat points unless the character is a Faerie, who I believe can't use that particular weapon at all).

One other question: What classes work best for bombs and scrolls? (The character whose class has a bonus to Artifacts is too busy casting spells.)
Posted September 03, 2021
I used to really enjoy putting a Bishop in my old parties. It would usually consist of: A Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Bard, Gadgeteer, and Bishop. I felt that was a good mix of abilities, while keeping the experience requirements low for most characters. The Fighter and Rogue would be on the frontline, the Ranger and Bard on the flanks, and the Gadgeteer and Bishop protected in the center. I would make sure that the Bishop learned every spell in the game, as difficult as that is. She took so long to level up, that I took full advantage of her class, and I even trained Artifacts by distributing level up points and using Mana Stones.
Fighters are a lot of fun to use. I would prioritize Strength, Dexterity, Speed, and Senses, in that order. Vitality seems like a little too much, when their HPs are BY FAR, the best in the game. I agree with you, because they hit so hard, for double damage, and get many swings and attacks later on, they take melee potential away from everyone else(Rogues equipped with Bloodlust and the Thieves' Dagger do the same thing).
Thanks for the reminder. My Human Priest, with his 45 Strength, won't be able to use the Mauler until he gets 50 Strength. I believe he can equip an Ankh of Might for +10 to Strength, however, I think Bela sells them, or maybe Crock. Or I could actually put points on level-up into Strength, after Piety and Senses are maxed.
For bombs and scrolls, possibly a hybrid class that doesn't focus on their magic and/or hasn't unlocked Powercast. Hybrids have so many attributes to focus on that having that flexibility with "magic" might be helpful. It took a while for my old Ranger to get his magic decent, because he was heavily focused on ranged combat and melee when his flank got swarmed. I ended up mixing potions to increase his Alchemy.
Posted September 03, 2021
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RChu1982: Thanks for the reminder. My Human Priest, with his 45 Strength, won't be able to use the Mauler until he gets 50 Strength. I believe he can equip an Ankh of Might for +10 to Strength, however, I think Bela sells them, or maybe Crock. Or I could actually put points on level-up into Strength, after Piety and Senses are maxed.
For any Priest who I plan on relying on for physical damage, I prioritize Strength as one of the first two attributes I raise, because the damage different is significant; at high STR a Priest can actually hit pretty hard. I've found that Piety isn't typically worth it unless I want to go for Iron Will; the extra SP is insignificant. As for Senses, I like to go Speed first unless I'm actually looking for Eagle Eye, which doesn't seem as useful for a Priest as Power Strike, Snake Speed, or (if I choose to take that route) Power Cast.

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RChu1982: Fighters are a lot of fun to use. I would prioritize Strength, Dexterity, Speed, and Senses, in that order. Vitality seems like a little too much, when their HPs are BY FAR, the best in the game. I agree with you, because they hit so hard, for double damage, and get many swings and attacks later on, they take melee potential away from everyone else(Rogues equipped with Bloodlust and the Thieves' Dagger do the same thing).
Is Dexterity really that important, here? The expert skill is unnecessary (physical attacks are generally not dangerous, and with a Fighter's HP I've found that, at higher levels, heavy armor isn't even worth the weight), and Dexterity doesn't help with the number of swings the way Strength does.

If I use a Fighter, it will be as a temporary character, as they're actually too powerful later on, and physical attacks are just boring when compared to spells..
Post edited September 03, 2021 by dtgreene
Posted September 03, 2021
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RChu1982: For bombs and scrolls, possibly a hybrid class that doesn't focus on their magic and/or hasn't unlocked Powercast. Hybrids have so many attributes to focus on that having that flexibility with "magic" might be helpful. It took a while for my old Ranger to get his magic decent, because he was heavily focused on ranged combat and melee when his flank got swarmed. I ended up mixing potions to increase his Alchemy.
The problem with giving Bombs to the Ranger is that then I need to focus on Throwning & Sling instead of Bows for that character.

Also, in general the only time where I've really wanted to use offensive consumables is on Arnika Road, when the encounters can get dangerous and my characters haven't really had a chance to develop into their role; at higher levels, such items don't have a good niche to fill, and they tend to be better off sold (especially since so many of the game's consumables are more expensive than they should be).

With Artifacts, there are just a few things that I would consider important:
* Mana Stones, but since Restore Magic is a 1st level spell, not much skill is needed for these to be reliable.
* Scrolls of Heal All, which could easily fail, making them an expensive waste if that happens. On the other hand, before I reach Crock (which is basically guaranteed to be before level 11), it's the only way I have to cast Heal All.
* Amulet of Life. Has a hard requirement of 35 Artifacts, but one that I'd ideally like more characters to be able to use, or at least my Valkyrie (since she can cheat death, she's more likely to be able to revive the others).
* Amulet of Healing. Higher power level than the Scroll of Heal All, but since it has charges, it can be sold and bought back to regain those charges.
* Staff of Doom. That Death Cloud does look rather tempting, even if I have to cast a spell to un-equip it so I can sell it and then buy it back.

(There's some other items with spells that might be interesting, like the Ring of Power, Staff of 12 Stars, and Garland of Roses, but unfortunately, those items aren't easy to get in the vanilla game; 2 of them are rare drops from non-respawning sources (probably my most disliked mechanic in the game, other than enemy resistances being too high later on and no reasonable counter to spells like Element/Sou Shield), and the 3rd drops from a friendly NPC you can't attack.)
Posted September 04, 2021
Amulet of Life is the main reason I have all characters reach at least 35 Artifacts but I see little point in pumping the stat afterwards... the Bishop will keep getting better just by collecting ? items as the game goes on

as for who has bombs I normally give those to Vi or who ever else my party picks up as temp members because these tend to be lower levels as the game goes on
Posted September 04, 2021
This has been such an interesting read. I'm now going to have to try an all fighter run except for 1 thief.
Posted September 04, 2021
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ussnorway: as for who has bombs I normally give those to Vi or who ever else my party picks up as temp members because these tend to be lower levels as the game goes on
Thing is, the part of the game where I would most likely want to use bombs comes before I reach the area where Vi Domina is found, so using her, or any other temporary party member for that, feels rather pointless to me.

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abbayarra: This has been such an interesting read. I'm now going to have to try an all fighter run except for 1 thief.
Why use a thief? With Posseur's Cap and the Thief's Buckler, you can get 20 Locks & Traps on a fighter, and with some Knock Picks or Scrolls of Knock-Knock, you should be able to open any locks you need to. (Remember: If two different party members use Knock-Knock (by whatever means), the second cast doesn't cancel the first.)
Post edited September 04, 2021 by dtgreene
Posted September 04, 2021
all fighter run will be a slow slog... better you than me ;(
Posted September 04, 2021
You are correct about Piety not being that important for most professions, but it seems to be especially important for a Priest. It's the only controlling attribute for Divinity, and 1 of 2 controlling attributes for all realms. Piety also increases SPs and Stamina, and grants Iron Will once maxed. Piety is the 2nd most useless attribute for my Bard and Gadgeteer, behind Intelligence(Powercast does nothing for them), because it doesn't even give them SPs, just Stamina.
I'm not relying on my Priest too much for physical damage, just to hold the flank, as he is the toughest of my casters, and 3rd toughest overall, behind the Bard and Gadgeteer(who are way tougher, having been built for physical combat). As this is a MDP, the 4 pure casters are going for magic first(Intelligence, Piety, Speed, Senses), then physical(Strength, Vitality, Dexterity). Once my Priest hits level 29, the first 4 attributes will be maxed, and I can start working on his more physical attributes.
I'm pretty sure that Strength, Dexterity, and Senses all affect the chance to hit, just Strength helps melee more, and Senses helps ranged more. From what I have gathered from various sources, both Dexterity and Speed help with max swings per attack/attacks per turn. Both Speed and Senses equally increase Initiative, which is why my casters are pumping both. My Bard and Gadgeteer maxed Dexterity first, and their Reflextion skills are skyrocketing, even faster than Powerstrike.
The reason that melee physical attacks are so powerful is balance, I believe. While magic spells and ranged physical attacks can hit enemies far away on Round 1, melee physical attacks require you to be at close range usually, sometimes extended range. This requires that: Either you waste turns closing the distance, getting pelted with enemy ranged weapons and spells, or you wait for the enemy melee attackers to close the distance with you.
I'm not really a fan of using consumables for offensive purposes, only for utility purposes, such as Smelling Salts to cure KO(as far as I know, that and Restoration magic are the only ways to cure it). I spread my magic spells out between offense and defense, relying on their power levels to help me through Arnika Road. Consumables require the Throwing and Sling skill to get good so you don't do more harm to yourself than to the enemy. That makes the pure casters prime candidates to use T&S, as that's their only ranged weapon skill available. Then again, my casters were busy casting spells most of the time, hoping to improve their realm skills and their spellbook skill. I do make a habit once the enemy is weakened, to dedicate a round or two to let all my characters fire their slings or bows, so everybody can try to get points in their ranged combat skills. It has paid off. Most of my characters have >50 skill points in their Ranged Combat, and either Throwing and Sling or Bow skills. Now they're all getting extra swings and attacks.
Just by playing the game normally, and grabbing whatever items you find on the ground, and opening every chest you see, you should have enough Artifacts skill for most of your characters. I did pump it for my Mage, with her high Intelligence and Senses. I have never fizzled a Mana Stone, I didn't even know it was possible. It's the best way that I know of(in terms of not being cheesy), to raise the Artifacts skill for everybody, even non-casters(I believe anybody can use them to restore magic to a caster).
My Priest already has Rest All and Heal All, and I loaded him up with Magic Nectar(Restore Magic). Now he's basically the one to keep the party going. The Amulet of Life, as well as Resurrection Potions, are something I don't worry about, as I reload if I get party deaths. I'm playing on Novice, and I'm high level now(20/19), so death doesn't seem to be a concern. The Amulet of Healing is a necessity for a Staff of Doom user, so they don't slowly drain their HPs until they die. The Death Cloud on the SOD is unnecessary, when I have an Alchemist who just picked that spell at level 19. I don't think the "cloud" spells stack.
Post edited September 04, 2021 by RChu1982
Posted September 04, 2021
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RChu1982: From what I have gathered from various sources, both Dexterity and Speed help with max swings per attack/attacks per turn.
From what I understand, Dexterity does *not* help with swings per attack (though it does help with attacks per round). Speed, on the other hand, helps with both (though the expert skill isn't particularly useful from the standpoint of a physical attacker; it's more useful for caster types, I'd say (and less for Alchemists because cloud spells don't take effect until the end of the round)).
Posted September 04, 2021
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RChu1982: You are correct about Piety not being that important for most professions, but it seems to be especially important for a Priest. It's the only controlling attribute for Divinity, and 1 of 2 controlling attributes for all realms. Piety also increases SPs and Stamina, and grants Iron Will once maxed. Piety is the 2nd most useless attribute for my Bard and Gadgeteer, behind Intelligence(Powercast does nothing for them), because it doesn't even give them SPs, just Stamina.
Thing is, those extra SPs are insignificant in the long run, so it really does not make sense to put points into Piety after character creation unless you're going for Iron Will.

Iron Will is decent if you want a character who can survive to heal others (so decent (but not necessarily worth it) for characters with the Priest spellbook and maybe Monks (not Psionics, because there's no serious status ailment they can cure but aren't immune to). It might be more useful if you want to play without Element/Soul Shield, but that's not a typical way of playing the game.

For Bard/Gadgeteer, Stamina is useful. Not enough reason to raise the stat at level up, but it does mean that if you want to maximize instrument usage, the optimal strategy is to max out Strength, Vitality, and Piety at character creation.

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RChu1982: The reason that melee physical attacks are so powerful is balance, I believe. While magic spells and ranged physical attacks can hit enemies far away on Round 1, melee physical attacks require you to be at close range usually, sometimes extended range. This requires that: Either you waste turns closing the distance, getting pelted with enemy ranged weapons and spells, or you wait for the enemy melee attackers to close the distance with you.
Thing is, when melee ends up being the best damage option for characters who are bad at it, it feels like there's a balance issue with how strong such attacks are.

Enemy ranged attacks and spells aren't dangerous later in the game, as Element/Soul Shield blocks the nastiest spells, and ranged attacks aren't much of a threat (barring the low death effect from things like Deathsing Apuses, but that's a non-issue once you have multiple characters with cheap resurrection (via spell or amulet).

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RChu1982: The Amulet of Healing is a necessity for a Staff of Doom user, so they don't slowly drain their HPs until they die.
Not if the character is a Lord or Alchemist.
* Lords get natural HP regen, which can cancel out the HP drain from the staff.
* There's an item called the Medicine Bag, usable only by Alchemists, that grants HP regen to its wearer. While it's not as good as he amulet, it's in a more convenient location if you're interested in using this particular staff; it's in the same hidden secret cave behind the waterfall as the Staff of Doom! No need to do more adventuring to get the amulet when you can get the staff and HP regen in the same place!
Post edited September 04, 2021 by dtgreene
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This is my favourite topic
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Wizardry seriesW8 Magic Damage Party(281 posts)(281 posts)
(281 posts)