It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
Wizardry seriesW8 Humans supreme race!(113 posts)(113 posts)
(113 posts)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
This is my favourite topic
Posted February 03, 2024
avatar
dtgreene: Or you could get the Staff of Doom first and use that as an item. Yes, it does cast Death Cloud.
At that point, isn't that just flexing on the game. Well, the game is easy either way, so who cares. And, I guess if you really need triple-shot crossbows and couldn't fit in a gadgeteer, it makes sense.
Posted February 03, 2024
avatar
ZyroMane: Well, the game is easy either way, so who cares.
The game isn't that easy. In particular, there's still situations where things can get rather dicey, plus the occasional difficulty spike (the first two being Gregor and Arnika Road 1st time). Of course, whether the difficulty spikes are difficult can depend heavily on the party, the route the player takes, and on what level the party is (and, for non-boss spikes, what encounters the RNG decides to generate).

I've heard of a level 9 party going to the Northern Wilderness and fighting some level 26 scorchers. Would be no problem if the player were level 20+, but at level 9 that's not a reasonable encounter.

In any case, the game is hard enough that the build the player uses actually matters (unlike, say, Final Fantasy 7), though not so hard as to force a very specific party build (that is, the game is not kaizo).
Posted February 04, 2024
The game encourages the players to leave the Monastery around level 6 or so, at which point they would struggle. I'm doing an over-leveled party, hanging out in the Monastery until level 20 or so, when I feel that attributes, spell picks, and skills are at par. Note that magic damage parties are at a disadvantage, as the only way to restore mana before Arnika, is to camp.

However, if you actually manage to grind your party to level 20 or so, before setting out on the Arnika Road for the first time, you will dominate (have fun picking up all the loot from Higardi Rogues, encumbering your party).

The real problem is entering Arnika first time, squaring up against level 17 Savant Berserkers, level 18 Savant Destroyers, level 21 Savant Slashers, and level 22 Savant Minion. Take it from me, I did a MDP last time, they are tough.
Posted February 05, 2024
I agree with a certain someone: Wiz8 is a game where one of sufficient skill and experience could tin man blind. But I guess holes in level geometry is difficulty in this day and age. Sure, Wiz8 isn't Registered Doom easy, but hard it ain't. I have a hard time calling it moderate, via comparisons with blobbers. But, on the other hand, RPG is a casual genre, so... (Otherwise, a filthy popamole casual, such as meself, wouldn't be here.)
Posted February 05, 2024
You filthy casual! How dare you not agree with me on everything, and not grind your party to level 20 in the Lower and Upper Monastery, before first setting out on the Arnika Road!

I'm kidding, of course; There are multiple ways to play the game, such as dtgreene underlevelling, or my overlevelling. However, one thing is certain: You don't want to leave the Monastery at level 6 or so, as enemy spawns will be overwhelming.

I like certainty in games (I'm on the spectrum, if that helps). I don't like relying on luck, or RNG. I want to be flat-out powerful, and dominate the game, due to all the hard work and level-grinding I put in.
Posted February 05, 2024
avatar
RChu1982: I'm kidding, of course; There are multiple ways to play the game, such as dtgreene underlevelling
I'd argue that I only underlevel until I reach Arnika, at which point, these days, I like to reach level 8 before I head to Trynton (for X-Ray). The rest of the game I often do at the level I end up with, which is typically an appropriate level, or perhaps a bit lower (doing Rapax areas in the mid-teens, for example).
avatar
RChu1982: I like certainty in games (I'm on the spectrum, if that helps). I don't like relying on luck, or RNG. I want to be flat-out powerful, and dominate the game, due to all the hard work and level-grinding I put in.
Reminded me of Crystal Project. On one hand, combat in that game is not generally RNG heavy. (There's one boss fight that, in a speedrun, can be an issue because of one particular spell with an unusual amount of RNG that it uses, but aside from that, combat is quite predictable in that game.) On the other hand, you can't outlevel the late game, as there's a level cap of 60 (unless you use an assist mode option to increase it), and late game enemies (especially optional bosses) are quite capable of taking out a level 60 party, *especially* on hard.

On the flip side, there's Disgaea (sadly not on GOG), where reaching level 9999 is quite possible, but still, by itself, not enough to defeat the game's ultimate superboss. (Perhaps you need some other means of gaining power?)

Also, incremental games get the feeling of "grinding", while not actually having you face enemies. The goal is usually to increase some number, and in some of those games numbers can get *really* big (I've seen well over a googolplex, for example).
Post edited February 05, 2024 by dtgreene
Posted February 05, 2024
It seems worth it in this game to grind, at least for Bishops, as nobody can deny their versatility. However, this comes at a heavy cost, which is lagging behind the party in character levels.

Once Bishops reach level 24, they have effectively "maxed out", as they have level credit in all 4 spellbooks, and can cast level 7 spells (some of them, such as the cheaper Tsunami, Concussion, and Cerebral Hemorrhage, at power level 7). The others (the hit all/kill all spells), can be cast at power level 6, unless you want a risk of fizzle.
Posted February 07, 2024
I made it through "hell road" at level six with no casters. Even ran into some crimson poppies at level seven, thus without magic screen. Why would you want to miss out on that? Allergic to fun?

I agree with that codexer, at least generally: deterministic > RNG. Especially when it comes to chargen. That's one of those things MPN is always talking about. (I like to think of MPN as Mr. MDP.)

I tried out a little bit of Crystal Project after seeing the take that it's like to FFV as Rad Codex's games are to FFT. It's no Voidspire, but, I kinda like the platforming. My one reservation is really how classes—jobs—are unlocked. Although, that probably makes the randomizer fun. If the resource management is half as fun as Quester, might be worth picking up. I should clear out some more of my shortlist first, of course.

I remember Trynton before X-ray, before I started going UBC first. My party won't get it to... oh, probably bluff or tunnels. Press F. Swamp without X-ray... or soul/elemental shield... Ouch. Might be fun. But must needs finish Arnika first. (Might have to delay retro dungeons, too easy to teleport into the middle of a tough mob on expert. More fun to risk it. I'm not doing iron man, though.)

Many things are worth grinding in Wiz8. But even a quick and dirty bishop is useful and fun. It's like how my lord might end up the worst fighter in the long run—horrible intelligence AND senses—but, infinity helm plus divinity; how could that not be useful? (The valk has polearm bonus, so, somewhat better.) Funny how the divinity warriors will start out closer to top of the warriors, to end up being notable for their support. I know someone had great success with a faerie valk. I wonder how long it will take to get all the helms and robes. Ninja gets the amulet. (Thinking too far ahead.) I think the samurai currently has the most kills. They will all lay the smack down well enough, they do very well without blades right now.
Posted February 07, 2024
avatar
ZyroMane: I made it through "hell road" at level six with no casters. Even ran into some crimson poppies at level seven, thus without magic screen. Why would you want to miss out on that? Allergic to fun?
I don't find it fun to run into such obstacles when my party hasn't fully settled into their roles.

It's more fun when I can actually use the builds I've made to overcome challenges.

avatar
ZyroMane: I agree with that codexer, at least generally: deterministic > RNG. Especially when it comes to chargen. That's one of those things MPN is always talking about. (I like to think of MPN as Mr. MDP.)
There are some cases where I actually do like randomness:
* Some randomness during battle to keep me on my toes, and to make it important to have contingency strategies.
* Random growth works provided a failed growth check doesn't count against growth limits. (In particular, random level up stat gains are bad, but something like Wizardry 8's skill increase mechanics would be good.)
* Similarly for random treasure, which also shouldn't be too rare. (Wizardry 8 fails here, due to many items that have only a finite number of chances to appear.)
Post edited February 07, 2024 by dtgreene
Posted February 07, 2024
Obstacles? That fight was dead easy, and I could have just ran from it anyway. I just really wanted the free bow. Also building to have a ninety-percent chance of making it through the road of doom is fun building. It's not even hard, just actually build magic. It's that easy and open. That doesn't even mean taking casters or dracons. Although, not taking a mage and priest is "hard mode." If skill is not enough, just lower the difficulty and run? But, hey, when one starts to break the game via meta-knowledge, of course lop-sided messes of parties, tin man, meme builds, etc. start to look more attractive. If only Wiz8 wasn't so tedious. It's that whole chargen is CnC thing.

While I'd rather hold out on levels for class changing or spell learning shenanigans, staying at five for the road is a better solution than resting for days behind the house. Both work, but I just always take levels as they come, find it more fun myself. This isn't Knights of the Chalice II, where winning battles at low levels is a challenge that rewards even more buckets of xp. Out-leveling skills is fun, a large reason why the game gets so meh during the middle. It's like grinding to level four for Gregor, not as fun as at level three. Two can be fun, but expect corpses. Almost always plural. (Shame that the powders range from two to six. Oh well, replace character ahoy.)

I'm a filthy casual, I love egregious RNG. But, hey, I like low-level miss fiestas. I always hated how the OC of NWN just ushers the player to level three. I mean, I understand why, but then Bioware still failed. The game's random loot is garbage until the player reaches level five! Eh, the whole campaign is just a mess, and I still don't know how I managed to finish it. Well, monk speed didn't hurt. Especially since monks can also get perma-haste immediately into chapter two, which stacks with monk speed, and adds AC and an extra attack.

Wiz8 also has the best set weapon, and the best non-cursed set weapon being extremely good. The former has no class or race restriction(?), the latter is limited to two(!) classes. Both weapons seem to outperform *light* *sword*. Although, having more chances at the muramasa would have been very nice for sword samurai, which is how most people would play a samurai!
Posted February 07, 2024
avatar
ZyroMane: Although, having more chances at the muramasa would have been very nice for sword samurai, which is how most people would play a samurai!
I'd probably go for a Mook Samurai; the Giant's Sword, which is guaranteed to be obtainable, is really good, and it benefits from the Samurai's primary skill bonus. (Having a Samurai, along with a Lord/Valkyrie, makes it unnecessary to do one of those bishop mixes I've been talking about, as long as you're willing to wait until at least level 7/9 to gain access to those long duration spells.)

(Then again, I'm tempted to go wit ha party of multiple Bishops, each with a different build.)
avatar
ZyroMane: It's like grinding to level four for Gregor, not as fun as at level three. Two can be fun, but expect corpses. Almost always plural. (Shame that the powders range from two to six. Oh well, replace character ahoy.)
It seems that level 3 or 4 is typical for the Gregor fight, if you take levels as they come. Level 4 happens if you explore more thouroughly, or if you rest more (and hence get more respawns).

At level 2 I consider the party to not be ready for Gregor. If I reach Gregor at that level, I explore any area I skipped, and if that doesn't give enough XP, I wait for more XP-yielding enemies to spawn.
Post edited February 07, 2024 by dtgreene
Posted February 07, 2024
A non-Mook Ranger's "best" Sword, an Estoc De Olivia, can easily be farmed from Rapax Harassment squads (the ones that spawn in the Eastern Mountain Wilderness, and say something stupid).

*Light Swords* and *Light Shields* can be farmed from the set 7 Buccaneer Ghosts (and you can get a free *Light Shield* from talking to Jan-Ette enough times.

You are guaranteed one Staff of Doom, in the Mountain Wilderness waterfall. You can get more from farming set Rapax Corpses (two are set enemies near Rafe's cell).

What I find appalling is the mechanic behind the Cane of Corpus. You need to be a Fairy Ninja, something most players would never create. Then, you have an 80% chance to get said item (not guaranteed, so all your hard work could be wasted). Also, some (more cowardly) characters don't think outside the box, and don't figure out that to clear out the trees completely for the Trynnie, the Don needs to die. It's more satisfying to whack the Don and Milano, and clear out the trees completely, along with the Breeders.

Edit: I checked the Mook Fighter's stats with a Human Fighter. The Mook has 35 Dexterity and Speed, making them slower than a comparable Human Fighter.
Post edited February 07, 2024 by RChu1982
Posted February 07, 2024
avatar
RChu1982: *Light Swords* and *Light Shields* can be farmed from the set 7 Buccaneer Ghosts (and you can get a free *Light Shield* from talking to Jan-Ette enough times.
What if they've already been defeated?

(And you can only talk to Jan-Ette once, because then she dies.)

avatar
RChu1982: Edit: I checked the Mook Fighter's stats with a Human Fighter. The Mook has 35 Dexterity and Speed, making them slower than a comparable Human Fighter.
That can be fixed with level up stat points, and you get a really nice weapon for your troubles, not to mention mental resistance, which could be what saves you.

All the power doesn't matter if you're insane or turncoated. Actually, it does matter, but in the opposite way; the more powerful you are, the worse being insane/turncoated is.
Post edited February 07, 2024 by dtgreene
Posted February 08, 2024
And this is why us "experts" know this in advance, and save before talking to Jan-Ette, knowing that she has around a 2% chance to drop a *Light Shield*. Funny enough, in my last party, I only had to talk to her 2 times to get a *Light Shield* for my Priest.

"What if they've already been defeated?" Sour grapes. If you've been around, you know, born before this game came out, you should have already known that, with the wealth of internet knowledge nowadays (we didn't have that luxury of the World Wide Web in the 80s and 90s, we just played our games), they are a once-in-a-game occurance. With the knowledge that we all have now, there is no excuse for not having *Light Swords* and *Light Shields* (that is, if you actually want them).

I did a comparison/calculation with the Human Fighter vs. Mook Fighter: They get the same (40) stat points to distribute upon creation, and both will max Strength and Dexterity at the same time. The only difference is that the Mook will have lower Speed, and higher Senses, while the Human will have the opposite. It's kind of a wash in attributes. The difference really becomes, the Mook's Giant's Sword vs the Human's higher Stamina.

Edit: The Mook, having higher Senses, will get Eagle Eye faster, while the balanced Human will get both SnakeSpeed and Eagle Eye at the same time, while the Mook will get SnakeSpeed later. It's about even.
Post edited February 08, 2024 by RChu1982
Posted February 08, 2024
avatar
RChu1982: And this is why us "experts" know this in advance, and save before talking to Jan-Ette, knowing that she has around a 2% chance to drop a *Light Shield*. Funny enough, in my last party, I only had to talk to her 2 times to get a *Light Shield* for my Priest.

"What if they've already been defeated?" Sour grapes. If you've been around, you know, born before this game came out, you should have already known that, with the wealth of internet knowledge nowadays (we didn't have that luxury of the World Wide Web in the 80s and 90s, we just played our games), they are a once-in-a-game occurance. With the knowledge that we all have now, there is no excuse for not having *Light Swords* and *Light Shields* (that is, if you actually want them).
Thing is, when I'm theory crafting, there are some self-imposed rules that I apply, and one of them is that I don't count anything that's permanently missable. This means that, if an item isn't guaranteed to appear, and it's not dropped by any respawning enemy, and it's not sold by an NPC, then I consider it to not exist. (Remember: If you're playing ironman (or even what some call pseudo-ironman), you *can't* reload if you don't get the drop you want.) There's some other rules I follow, like not counting items dropped by friendly NPCs, unless there's another way to get them. I do make exceptions for the Cane of Corpus, but as I don't play stealth characters, I don't end up using a Fairy Ninja.

Also, I have an explicit self-imposed rule of not using the Light Shield, even if it does happen to drop, as it looks like it's too powerful. (I also, at the moment, have a rule against the Infinity Helm, though at some point I might modify it to remove the SP regen, which just feels wrong for an item that full casters can't equip.)

Speaking of self-imposed restrictions, I'm thinking that, for my next playthrough, I may disallow Element/Soul Shield. This means I'd have to think more carefully about resistances, the Iron Will skill becomes more meaningful, having contingencies (like multiple characters who can cure statuses) becomes more important, and will make many later fights harder. (Still aiming for Normal difficulty; this rule plus Expert would make certain enemy types extremely terrifying to most parties.)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
This is my favourite topic
Community
Wizardry seriesW8 Humans supreme race!(113 posts)(113 posts)
(113 posts)