Sometimes I don't feel like playing for a bit, but I do still like talking about the game during those times, (I also like talking about games I'm not currently playing, at least if it's a game I like.)

At least Wizardry 8 doesn't have anything like daily events. Imagine if it did, and you had to load the game each day or miss out on something. (For example, imagine if the game had some random daily item spawns, which could be Light Swords.)


The +15 skill and -1 initiative offset each other for purposes of determining how many swings per attack. They do not offset each other for purposes of turn order and how many attacks you get.

Once you get The Mauler, you should compare the two. Remember that an extra attack is better than an extra swing.

You haven't reached Ferro yet? I tend to reach him in the mid teens, when he only has some of his spellbooks for sale.

With regards to combat music, I think the game should have had some boss themes. Specifically, there should be some themes that are reserved for boss fights, as even the "hard battle" theme just doesn't feel right. Perhaps there could be separate themes for:
* Typical bosses. This could include Gregor (but doesn't have to), but would definitely include the Sorceress Queen, the Keeper of the Crypt, and Nebdar.
* Hostile NPCs. Would be heard if there is a hostile NPC involved in the current battle. Would make fights with the likes of Z'Ant and Don Barlone feel more impactful, and not like just any old combat. (Also would give you a cue if you accidentally turned an NPC hostile during combat, though such a situation is rare, at least in 1.2.4.)
* Finally and most importantly, a theme that is reserved for the final battle. Basically, it would replace the battle themes listed above should combat break out in the Cosmic Circle. This battle theme should be suitably epic, complete, perhaps, with the sort of epic choir you hear in that one movement of Carmina Burana. Seriously, it is incredibly disappointing when you reach the final boss of a game, only to find that it uses the same music that normal battles use. (The original Final Fantasy was like this; the same battle theme is used for *every* battle theme in that game, including the final battle. Fortunately, remakes fixed this.)

I skimmed the thread—it's no R. E. H.—and I've had one question. While it's not necessary to max locks & traps, it shouldn't take too much time, is your issue that the method is too gamy? I like to pump it to fifty and then let it grow as it pleases, but that's more because I find the typical technique far too boring. Similarly, I like to put points into school skills only up to forty-five. My gadgeteer has only twenty engineering at level nine, due to putting no points into it. I do the same with realms. At least music encourages rushing fifteen for the pipes.

I really should play Crusaders of the Dark Savant, but I'd wager that I'd enjoy Heralds of the Winged Exemplar more.

I don't mind when a final boss lacks a unique theme. Then again, I don't mind that Catacomb 3-D has a sole song, or that that same song is the track for half of Secret of the Oracle's levels. But I have to admit that—despite the rest of the game—"Second Armageddon" is great.

Thing is, you don't really need Locks & Traps at all, except maybe if you're playing Ironman.

Locks? Just cast a few Knock Knock spells (from different characters, using consumables if needed), then use Posseur's Cap and/or a Thieves' Buckler for the last tumbler or two.

Traps? Save before examining the chest the first time. Then, Knock Knock has a chance of preventing the trap from being tripped. Even if that doesn't happen, only a few chest traps are likely bad enough to force a reload; if it's just damage, poison, or even insanity, you can just heal/cure/rest off the trap's effects. If you do trip a problem trap, reload from before you first checked the trap, and it will probably be a different trap. (The problem ones are the ones that can kill, drain, destroy money and destroy consumables.)

Even on Ironman, you can make sure you don't have too many consumables and money before attempting traps, and many of the traps can simply be skipped; you don't need every single treasure in the game.

If the game you're mentioning is the one I'm thinking you're mentioning, it may be from a developer I can't ethically support.

Then again, I've started thinking about having another go at The Elder Scrolls: Arena, a game by a different company that's definitely older than Wizardry 8. (Not sure how it compares, age-wise, to Wizardry 7.) Of course, it is a completely different type of game. It's also simultaneously much simpler and much buggier. (Wizardry 8 isn't without its bugs (and spiders!), but they're much more of an issue in Arena.)

Hearing the same theme over and over can get annoying. In my Final Fantasy example, there's so much variety in the non-combat music, particularly for a game that old, yet only one battle theme for the entire game. (Even Dragon Quest 1 at least gave the final boss its own theme.) Even worse is the NES version of Ultima 5, which has only one musical theme for the *entire* game, and it's repetitive and not that good. (Note that NES Ultima 5 has many other issues, to the point where the game fails so bad on multiple levels, even getting basic things wrong (input lag in a turn-based game without much animation, only way to regain MP is through death, among others) that it belongs in the kusoge category.)

I'm godly now! I have all 3 artifacts, Astral Dominae, Chaos Moliri, and Destinae Dominus! Everybody will want my head in the wilderness areas. These include: Savant machines, who just want me dead (they are programmed to kill on sight), Rattkin Mafia members who will offer me their "protection", which I always refuse, as the only good Rattkin is a dead Rattkin, and Rapax harassment squads (thankfully, only found in the eastern Mountain Wilderness), who just mouth off about false events, then attack me afterwards. I can handle all harassment with no problem.
I just listened to the 3 tracks on YouTube.
Easy Combat: Slow, calm, nothing to worry about. You are going to waste these enemies.
Normal Combat: Much more upbeat and urgent. As in, the battle could go either way. You better have a good battle strategy.
Tough Combat: Very intense and scary. As in, prepare to have your @$$ handed to you. You better bring out your "A" game, because the odds are not good.
I love the feeling of battles in that way. It doesn't matter to me about boss enemies, as the Nessie battle played the "easy combat" music because I simply outleveled her, and she had no help.
Not to bash on the younger generation, but I could imagine *Light Swords* being a temporary ladder item, only available for a few weeks, until the ladder resets. Thankfully, I'm not part of Gen-Z.
"You haven't reached Ferro yet?" The Rapax areas are literally the most unfriendly areas in the game, with constant Rapax battles, and items to pick up, further encumbering me because I hate litter, and the fact the they cheat (Why does a Rapax Samurai get to cast Magic Screen, a Priest-only spell?)
Edit: This was the "meat and potatoes" part of the game, because the other 2 artifacts were supposed to be relatively trivial.
Astral Dominae: Buy it from Don Barlone, and let him and Milano Calzone still rule the 6th Bough. What were the Trynnie thinking? Kill the Rattkin Breeders, and yet the Don and Milano sit there unopposed? There should have been a 2nd Trynnie quest to wipe out those 2. Of course, I did the right thing, and ended both their existences (not that I had much of a choice, as I killed Rattus Rattus earlier, just as DTGreene did (dirty rat).
Chaos Moliri: Some players would just wipe out all Mook opposition after getting it, but they're such a peaceful race, here to explore, why would you want to kill them? Of course, if you have the fake Astral Dominae, dropped by the Savant, then you can get it peacefully by swapping their Chaos Moliri for your fake Astral Dominae.
Destinae Dominus: Going through Trynton, then Marten's Bluff, then Trynton again, then the 6th Bough to get the Helm of Serenity, then the Swamp, Bayjin, Bayjin Shallows, and finally, the Sea Caves (with the trouble that entails), finally gets you the 3rd artifact. I would say that I am at least 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the game, with the Umpani and Rapax areas left.

I don't remember seeing Rapax Samurai cast that particular spell. (Maybe you're confusing it with Missile Shield?) With that said, I don't like the fact that there are such powerful protections against ranged and magic attacks, which are weaker to begin with than melee, but no way to counter them. (Incidentally, Wizardry 5, which introduced the first spell protection spell, *does* have a spell that is specifically designed to counter it.)

As far as friendly-ness, I'm not sure about Rapax areas being that unfriendly:
* It's easy to navigate these areas, particularly the Rift. In particular, getting turned around isn't as much of an issue as it is, say, in the Lower Monastery.
* Paths are typically narrow enough so that you don't often get surrounded, unlike on, say, Arnika Road (or Arnika proper, for that matter).
* Rapax battles may take a while, but at least they don't hit your characters with insanity the way some enemies do. Also, since they're initially hostile, you don't end up in the situation you do in a place like Trynton where friendly or neutral creatures are blocking you. I also don't remember being hit with instant death spells.
* Rapax areas don't require you to unequip one of your accessories just to avoid drowning, and they don't outright block a realm of magic. (Fire may not be useful against Rapax, but it can still do *some* damage if your spells are strong enough relative to the enemies. Furthermore, Haste works here, unlike underwater.)
* And, of course, there's significant payoff, with multiple level 7 instruments/gadgets, along with being able to purchase some really nice items and spellbooks from Ferro.

The thing is, at the very least the final boss should be in a category all by itself. The fate of the entire *universe* rests on the outcome of this one battle. To have it use the same musical theme that likely played when it was just a fledgeling party against a giant spider in a monastery just feels wrong. The music needs to have impact at this point. This fight is no typical hard fight (and reportedly isn't even as hard as some of the fights on Ascension Peak for some parties, particularly melee parties); it's the final battle, the one determining the universe's fate! Even the "Hard" battle music isn't epic enough.

Or, to put it another way, "hard" battle music is suitable for battles that are scary and tense; for the final battle, it would be more fitting to have something with a more epic feel.

Sometimes I get blinded by power-gaming. Something become extremely useful, if you make it, which can be its own fun. Likewise, I find diversity of ability and thought more important than diversity of immutable characteristics. Look at me being right wing. But, as a genius once said, some people find playing in traffic fun. So I will pick the locks and disarm the traps, thank you very much. I mean, I could just as well play all fighters, with one being bishop long enough for strong magic screen, but what would the fun of that be? This ain't Neverwinter Nights.

Having completed TES I-V save III, I assert that Arena has the best main quest dungeons. Magic is obviously OP, and even easier to exploit than other TES games, but the systems aren't the reason to play Arena.

Wizardry was far less about style than fundamentals. Even then, starting from the finale makes far more sense for a narrative driven approach to game design. So lack of unique themes, or music at all, doesn't bother me. And I say that as one who likes flash. But that's largely due to my superphantasia. Lower-fidelity graphics and subdued music tends to make for more enjoyable experiences, even. But, I like to read speculative fiction and esoteric non-fiction, which makes me a freak anyway. (Not to mention my general apathy towards film.)

With proper tactics, melee is technically disadvantaged. (And one never gets surrounded.) One can argue that its power was overcompensated for, easily. Which is also, eventually, true of ranged, not that anyone cares. The disadvantages of melee should have been played better, obviously. But acting like it was tends to make the game more fun, so... [People have the natural right to ruin their own fun, and then proceed to complain. Likewise, people have the right to mock such peoples.] But that's just a small chunk of why the game's so darn easy.

HAL Laboratory?

Arena's early dungeons are decent, as the game is still fairly new to the player, and so the novelty hasn't yet warn off.

Arena's late dungeons (which I have never reached) can be fun if your character can deal with spellcasting enemies, which become considerably more common then. (In particular, Sorcerers and characters who have access to Spell Reflection can have a good time.)

It's the in-between part where it gets dull.

The particular situation I mention is that spiders are a fairly common enemy in the early dungeons. You fight a lot of them, and then they become boring; just get some means to cure paralysis and be careful not to fight from water (or just play a High Elf or a Knight), and they're not a problem. In fact, after a while, they're *boring*.

And then, after this has been the case for a while, the game presents you with a spider-themed dungeon. In other words, they have a dungeon focused on an enemy type that has already overstayed its welcome.

You can't ensure that you never get surrounded.

Ranged combat is considerably weaker than melee, and it also has the problems of ammo management; carry too much and your characters get overencumbered, while if you carry too little you run out. You can't just rest to get more the way you can with spells.

If something is going to require a consumable (and this includes things like weapons in games with durability systems), it needs to be *significantly* better than those that don't, or players will just avoid using them. Ranged combat in Wizardry 8 (and, in fact, most consumables in Wizardry 8) just don't meet that bar.

(I avoid using Fighters past the early game because their berserk ability just makes the balance issue worse; take an already overpowered ability that enemies can't easily counter (melee combat), and *double* its damage.)

Actually, the systems are the primary basis I use for choosing an RPG to play, and I do sometimes play Arena. (Although, few games have systems as good as Wizardry 8's; it's just that there's some balance issues.)

The early dungeons of Arena are meh, and anyone can deal with spell-casters, warriors just have to hunt and grind for their solutions. To add insult to injury, mages are better at thievery than thieves. I guess I could call myself gameplay focused, but there is a reason I don't replay Arena. But it's the dungeoneering that brings me back to Daggerfall every now and again. And the dungeoneering sim works via magic or physical prowess.

You can prevent being surrounded: it's called patience. Blind spot? Combat walk. Have x-ray? Then what are blind spots? And what maroon walks in the open? Enemies are easily manipulable, even without hypnotic lure.

The optimal range for magic for most of the game is thrown, making ranged useful when meat-grinders start appearing en mass. Mister MDP himself recommends ranged combat, makes his mages and psionics sling only, and even has a fondness for sens builds, particularly for lords and valks. Furthermore, one player claimed that one of their quickest games was a party of slingers. The heaviest of ammo. Nevermind that: ranged is generally more accurate than melee, ninja throwing is almost as reliable as magic, ranged weapons allows one to stand and deliver better, and physical weapons have greater status chance than magic, albeit as single-ish target. I even, often, switch my characters to ranged weapons for Gregor, since they are often terrible at melee at that point. A fighter is an obvious exemption.

The fact that the penalties for resting are a slap on the wrist at best, and a benefit at their worse, is, arguably, the worst issue with Wizardry 8. Of course, you can have balanced/no resting, and still make a crap game. The save states don't help much either.

People don't use consumables even when they are useful. FFS, look at how many people hoard consumables in games like Swordflight, Knights of the Chalice, and Age of Decadence. And that's because the average person is allergic to fun and abhors quality. You can't develop around stupid. And you shouldn't cater to decline.

Wizardry 8's combat has many of the cons of both blob combat and tactical turned-based combat, and none of the best pros—which is something of an issue for a combat simulator, as netizens called it upon release. What it does excel at is character creation and building, especially for full-party creation. With spell-casting warriors being chef's kiss. See also how 3e Dandy is clearly designed around creating a single character—which is a factor as to why Neverwinter Nights "works"—causing leveling in Knights of the Chalice 2 to be a slog. (Probably one of the reasons why Pierre implemented gold costs for leveling, until he made that an optional setting.) Of course, most Dandy games reduce the complexities of chargen compared to tabletop.

Even if you can prevent being surrounded (you can't always, particularly earlier on before you have the likes of X-Ray), it's not always worth the time to do so. In some cases, it may be better to just allow the encounter to start in a fashion where you could get surrounded, then just blast them into oblivion. Just cast spells like Fireball, Noxious Fumes, and even Ring of Fire, and the battle will be over faster than if you took the time to prevent being surrounded. Later on, you can even cast Resurrection to undo death, which can be significantly faster than trying to prevent the death in the first place. (Remember that death isn't guaranteed to happen if you don't take a measure to prevent it; by doing this, you might save yourself the need to deal with it at all!)

(Note that this tends to become more apparent when you're significantly higher in level than the enemies. When you're going back through Arnika Road late game, do you really need to take the effort to make sure those low levels don't surround you when you can just blast them with spells before they can deal any serious damage?)

Ranged attacks lose accuracy when the target is further away, whereas, at higher levels, melee combat gets *very* accurate. When you're actually fighting at long range, ranged combat is going to miss a lot, unless you have very high to-hit bonuses (which pretty much means high Eagle Eye). Spells are more accurate at this range. If you're fighting at short range, on the other hand, then melee is *clearly* better than ranged.

Edit: Also worth noting that some enemies can shut down ranged combat with Missile Shield, whereas there isn't anything as effective at shutting down melee. Even Body of Stone isn't as effective because it's single target and can reasonably wear off before the combat it's cast in is over.

Except that the game is balanced with the ability to easily rest in mind. If resting were much harder, then attack spells would feel pointless, as not only are they weak, but they're limited, and the combination would be enough to make them non-viable for most players.

Wizardry 1 may not have mid-dungeon resting, but at least offensive spells are *powerful*, to the point where they have a huge impact in the battles you can use them in. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, doesn't have offensive spells that are powerful enough to counter-balance such severe usage restrictions; even using them all the time doesn't feel game-breaking the way it would feel in 1 (and does in 2, particularly once you get the final piece of KOD's equipment).
.

I disagree with your assertion that players will hoard consumables is "stupid".

Thing is, there are reasons that players may hoard them:
* The player is saving them for a tough spot, which, it feels, is how consumables should be meant to be used. This works if the game's difficulty increases as the game progresses, with the final boss being the peak. It just happens that, unfortunately, this is not true nearly as often as it should be; the game fails to sustain its difficulty as the game progresses.
* Such a player may have been burned by incidents in the past where consumables that are readily available at some point in the game become scarce later on.
* Quite often, particularly when it comes to attack items, the items don't feel strong enough to be worth the trouble, and they're not the sort of item that can get you out of a crisis, so they tend not to get used.

(By the way, for the CRPG I'm making, I'm designing it so that you can't avoid using up either MP or item durability; different character types may have the option of using MP instead of durability for certain items, however. Then again, the game design is quite different from Wizardry 8, having more in common with early SaGa.)

I'd argue that it does have many of the pros.

In particular, the combat does have a nice rhythm, something you don't see in fully real-time combat. (This even applies in Continuous mode.) Also, there's the lack of having to micromanage each character's location; you can just give an order to attack, rather than having to order both movement and attacks.

It's *way* better than the real tine with pause combat that has plagued so many WRPGs from the release of Baldur;'s Gate onwards; now *that* is a case of the worst of both worlds. (Although it's not the first bad WRPG combat system; see Ultima 7 for an example of a game with *horrendous* combat.)

By the way, going back to consumables, Final Fantasy 5 did something rather interesting, that probably got some players to use consumables when they wouldn't usually:
* In FF3 and FF4, there's rods, found early on, that can be used as items to cast low-level spells. These are weak, but do not get used up, so they serve as basic attack substitutes for spellcasters when you don't want to spend any MP.
* FF5 gives you some rods early on, so it's likely that players will try to use them in a similar manner. When the player uses it, they will notice that the spell cast is a *powerful* spell, one that very likely ends the combat where it's used, but the rod *breaks*, making it a consumable. That, I'd argue, is the sort of high impact that an offensive consumable needs to have to get players to use it. (Worth noting that rod breaking is so powerful that, at that point in the game, a boss can be killed with just 1 or 2 broken rods.)
* The game provides a few other ways to use consumables, including the incredibly fun and versatile !Mix ability.

I swear to Phoonzang himself that, as I peeked my head into the Rapax Rift to fight the 2 set Rapax Corpses near Rafe's cell to get 2 extra Staves of Doom, I had to waste a level-scaled party of high-level Rapax Samurai. One of them cast Magic Screen on the whole group. I had to constantly brute-force kill-all spells, the only reason I won the battle was due to my superior level and Powercast being maxed, otherwise, I would have had to run in and bash their heads in with melee weapons (why do Rapax have such ridiculous hit points for their level?, also, this was before I had *Light Swords* and multiple Staves of Doom, how annoying).
Speaking of that, dtgreene mentioned that some items feel "overpowered". I beg to differ. Let's be honest, this game cheats. You're almost always outnumbered by mobs of enemies. Enemy casters have unlimited mana, and they don't suffer from the same low hit points that your casters do (my Psionic and Mage especially pay a heavy price for their magic abilities, having the worst hit points and armor selection in the game, yet I see enemy casters with 200+ hit points, with much lower levels than me)? As said before, Rapax "Samurai" get to cast Magic Screen, a Priest-only spell? The Rapax especially, get ridiculous hit points for their level, sometimes surpassing even a Fighter. As Sseth said in his W8 review on Youtube, it's a test of this game's crushing difficulty vs your ability to game the system.
As a random autistic side note, how come you can sell Scuba Gear to Braffit? I seems to me that you can softlock your game by accidentally selling all Scuba Gear found in Bayjin and the Mount Gigas caves, then after a 24 hour cycle they disappear from vendor inventory, preventing you from accessing the Sea Caves, and getting the Destinae Dominus. They should have made Scuba gear unable to be sold, forcing you to put them in a chest, like with the other useless quest items, so they don't encumber the party.
Also, note that the Spiked Boots are not really a quest item, so much as an area item, that is supposedly only useful in one area (the Sea Caves), so that you don't slip on the ground. However, for the Psionic and Mage, it's a footwear upgrade (+5 AC vs the +3 from their Buskins). I gave it to the Mage, because she has the worst hit points in the game.
Anybody who is interested in the lore of this game would note that Marten mentioned that, both the party and the Savant have good and evil in them, that they may wind up on the same side (even though he mentioned that we were destined to fight each other, interesting).
I will do the Rapax areas, eventually. It's just that I consider it part of the "last leg" of the journey, after clearing out all the other areas first (The Rapax Castle is the 3rd to last area in the game, in front of Ascension Peak, and the Cosmic Circle. I have such good weapons that I would rather do the Umpani and Alliance quests first, then close in on the end.
I agree with you about the music for the final battle. And yes, I do feel sympathy for the Dark Savant, having been cast out by the other Cosmic Lords. So the final battle divides me (as mentioned earlier about what Marten hinted at). Perhaps have "epic good" battle music if you side with Bela and VI Domina (if present), and "epic evil" battle music if you side with the Savant? That would be epic, as the fate of the universe rests in your hands.

Duty! Power! Victory! I have officially joined the IUF (Imperial Umpani Federation).
This is not to say, that I wasn't paranoid about Z'Ant finding out about my double status. I never had this problem in any of my previous games. Anyways, I made sure that I had multiple saves before joining the Umpani. I then joined with Balbrak, paid off He'Li, then checked on Z'Ant. He wasn't hostile. I don't know why I'm being paranoid, just that I've been working on this "perfect" MDP for nearly two years.
The Umpani base camp has the second highest concentration of NPCs, behind Arnika. As I counted, there are 7: Panrack, Bildublu, Saxx, Kunar, Sparkle, Balbrak, and Rubble. That is a lot of NPCs to talk to about game events.
I also had to trade with Kunar, since I am now a member of the IUF, so plenty of items to buy and sell. Namely, he sells a special body armor (Flak Jacket). It features +9AC and only weighs 16, great for everybody except the Psionic and Mage, who have upgraded robes. I made sure to get it for the 4 that can equip it (Bard, Gadgeteer, Priest, Alchemist). Note that upper body armor counts the most towards determining average AC, and the upper body is where you are most likely to be hit by enemies.
Having made these preparations in the Umpani Base Camp, and having set a portal there, I am ready for the obstacle course tomorrow.

Don't forget the EWAXX unit, once you gain access to it; it is quite knowledgeable about many topics.

I ended up talking to the EWAXX unit for a while, only to have the game crash when going to the next area. (Reloading fixed it.)

You could try asking the Umpani about General Yamo (or just Yamo), and they may also respond to Guardia. (You won't actually find General Yamo anywhere in Wizardry 8, for a reason that will become obvious if you talk to the Umpani about him, or possibly if you've played enough of Wizardry 7.)

I hear that, apparently, Saxx has special responses to various IRL music related things, like asking him about Elvis. (Just remember that the game came out in 2001 or so, so there's no way he could know about more recent musicians.)

I find that I prefer Robes of Rejuvenation, which may only be 6 AC, but they provide nice regeneration, and are lighter. I even have them on my Valkyire. (I'm not using Infinity Helms at the moment.)