It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
So, Bishops are ready for level 18.

Dwarf will take Restoration, as she qualifies for that spell.

For the elf, however, there's a few options:
* Take the level up right now, and learn Mind Flay.
* Spend time practicing Divinity, then take Restoration. (The trick with Heal All auto-recast can come in handy here.)
* Spend time practicing Alchemy, then take Earthquake (or Death Cloud). For Earthquake, she only needs 2 points (or 1 Alchemy and 4 Earth Magic).
* Take the level and save the spell pick for later.

I'm thinking of, for the first time on any of my playthroughs, attempting the Mountain Wilderness retro dungeon. I've never done a retro dungeon before.
Me neither. Never have I played a retro dungeon before (too antiquated), nor have I ever ground for *Light Swords* and *Light Shields*, nor have I ever got more than the one guaranteed Staff of Doom in the Mountain Wilderness waterfall.
Getting 2 extra Staves of Doom from the 2 set Rapax Corpses means that all 3 can "put out". The Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage can all hit hard in melee (from a safe distance, of course, from extended range).
As far as your level 18 party is concerned, you could grind in Arnika for a while (the level 17 Savant Berserkers and level 21 Savant Slashers give good experience, as well as let you train your skills). This is currently what I'm doing.
The only weapon skill remaining to train is the Psionic's Staff and Wand skill (I got it to 99, because RNG gave the mage much better skill increases).
I noticed that skill increases severely slow down once you get to 98 skill. For my Psionic to get from 98 to 99 skill in Staff and Wand took a couple of nights of grinding.
Now that I'm at 99 skill, it will likely take a few more nights of beer drinking and grinding.
avatar
RChu1982: As far as your level 18 party is concerned, you could grind in Arnika for a while (the level 17 Savant Berserkers and level 21 Savant Slashers give good experience, as well as let you train your skills). This is currently what I'm doing.
In my experience, enemies just don't spawn often enough in Arnika.

Also, one reason I'd like the level up is so that Ferro would start selling Body of Stone for both Bishops and Psionic Blast for my dwarf Bishop.
It's funny that you got to Ferro around level 18. I have a level 36/35 MDP, who has only explored about half of the game (no Umpani caves, no underwater areas, no Sea Caves, no Rapax areas beyond grabbing 2 Staves of Doom near the entrance).
Arnika has the advantage of spawning Savant machines during the day, none of which cast magic at you (most of them will attack you in melee, helping you with melee weapon skills. Also, they will not run away like the cowardly thieves which spawn at night, and whose experience is trivial at this point in the game.
Enemies have spawned often enough to matter to my party, though sometimes, not often enough, as you have stated. Sometimes I wait for around 2 game hours (20-30 minutes real time) for a spawn, and even then, it isn't guaranteed to be the type of enemy that I want.
It's interesting that you have two Bishops with Body of Stone. I have only one character in my party to cast that spell (the Alchemist), and he constantly has to use Mana Stones. Granted, I have four unique casters, all able to cast Set and Return to Portal.
avatar
RChu1982: It's funny that you got to Ferro around level 18. I have a level 36/35 MDP, who has only explored about half of the game (no Umpani caves, no underwater areas, no Sea Caves, no Rapax areas beyond grabbing 2 Staves of Doom near the entrance).
Arnika has the advantage of spawning Savant machines during the day, none of which cast magic at you (most of them will attack you in melee, helping you with melee weapon skills. Also, they will not run away like the cowardly thieves which spawn at night, and whose experience is trivial at this point in the game.
Enemies have spawned often enough to matter to my party, though sometimes, not often enough, as you have stated. Sometimes I wait for around 2 game hours (20-30 minutes real time) for a spawn, and even then, it isn't guaranteed to be the type of enemy that I want.
It's interesting that you have two Bishops with Body of Stone. I have only one character in my party to cast that spell (the Alchemist), and he constantly has to use Mana Stones. Granted, I have four unique casters, all able to cast Set and Return to Portal.
Actually, I got to him considerably earlier, around level 14 or 15. It's just that he only sells some of his spellbooks unless you're level 18.

I went ahead and took the level up and Mind Flay. There's a good chance the next spells she takes will be Earthquake and Restoration. (She's 1 point away from qualifying for Earthquake now, and as I mentioned there's that trick with Heal All for leveling Divinity, though her Divine Magic is in the 90s, higher than that of the Bishop who actually knows Restoration right now.

Having 2 characters with Psionic Blast is going to be nice in some fights.

Body of Stone is one spell I haven't used. Worth noting that I actually did pick the spell for my Ranger, so I actually now have 3 characters who can cast the spell and have Power Cast.
Time to celebrate woohoo! The Psionic finally got 100 skill in Staff and Wand (not that this matters much, this is a formality, just that I managed to max every skill that I set out to, except Pickpocket, Locks and Traps, Communication, and Artifacts). None of these skills seem worth maxing, as there are always workarounds.
With Artifacts, there is always the Identify Item spell, that anybody with Priest or Psionic spells knows. Also, using Mana Stones increases it. It doesn't even have to be a caster, as a non-caster can use it outside of battle to replenish mana to a caster.
With Communication, having a Bard in your party gets you a 25% bonus to it, so you can hit 80 base skill with it (with the Bard's 25% bonus of 20, you can hit 100 pretty easily just by talking to NPCs). Also, any party with Alchemy potion mixing can just mix potions and make infinite money, so the discount becomes more of a convenience.
With Locks and Traps, even without a Rogue with the 25% bonus, you can get to 75 skill from level ups, and then just have anybody with Priest or Psionic spells cast Divine Trap for trapped chests, or somebody with Alchemist or Mage spells cast Knock Knock for tumbler locks.
Pickpocket is apparently worthless, though dtgreene suggested that it is possible to pickpocket the key from the Rapax Constable while he is drunk, which is always. You can always just kill him with an instant death spell, which apparantly doesn't reduce your faction rating with the Rapax.
I have been fooling around in the Mountain Wilderness, where there is easy experience for a level 30+ party.
The various scorcher enemies all will breathe fire at me, which causes no status ailments, and are vulnerable to the water element (Freeze All), while Element Shield will virtually eliminate any threats to me (all 6 characters have Amulets of Healing, which regenerate hit points every round).
The best enemies to fight are level 34 Molten Scorchers. They give around 900K experience (150K to each if in a 6 person party), and if there are 4 of them, 600K experience is awarded to each team member. My party is very close to level 36 fighting scorchers.
Body of Stone is great for protecting team members that want to practice melee skills, as it stacks with Guardian Angel (any damage dealt to the character is reduced by BOS first, then the remaining damage is passed onto GA, making your GA last a lot longer).
Post edited August 01, 2023 by RChu1982
avatar
RChu1982: With Artifacts, there is always the Identify Item spell, that anybody with Priest or Psionic spells knows. Also, using Mana Stones increases it. It doesn't even have to be a caster, as a non-caster can use it outside of battle to replenish mana to a caster.
If you want to specifically boost the skill, for example if you want to reach 35 or 55 for Amulet of Life usage, using the Amulet of Healing with a damage source is a good way to boost the skill. When it runs out, just sell it to Lord Braffit (will Sadok buy it?), buy it back, and repeat.

(55 Artifacts allows you to keep the Amulet of Life/Rainbows equipped if you get hexed.)

Also, if you want things like the Amulet of Healing and Staff of Doom to be reliable, you'll need around 80 skill.

avatar
RChu1982: Pickpocket is apparently worthless, though dtgreene suggested that it is possible to pickpocket the key from the Rapax Constable while he is drunk, which is always. You can always just kill him with an instant death spell, which apparantly doesn't reduce your faction rating with the Rapax.
As a reminder, i did have to Charm the Constable in order for Pickpocket to succeed enough times to get the key.

avatar
RChu1982: The various scorcher enemies all will breathe fire at me, which causes no status ailments, and are vulnerable to the water element (Freeze All), while Element Shield will virtually eliminate any threats to me (all 6 characters have Amulets of Healing, which regenerate hit points every round).
I haven't actually noticed Element Shield making a difference against enemy breath attacks.

Furthermore, as an alternative to casting Element Shield and watching out for when its duration wears off, you can cast Heal All (which, unlike Element Shield, can be cast via stamina or item charges) once your HP runs low. If you manage to kill them before your HP runs too low, then you can save the SP, and then just rely on regen or stamina casting to heal after the battle.


The main issues with Body of Stone are that:
* It's level 5. Therefore, it comes into play at a point when the most challenging part of the game has already passed.
* It's only single target. This means I need to cast it separately on each character who is to be protected.
Post edited August 01, 2023 by dtgreene
I generally dislike using items' charges (especially with this MDP), because the items have to be resold to a vendor, and bought back, to regenerate charges. This takes valuable time away from gameplay (I'm a full-time working man).
I'm pretty sure that most weapons and armor that use the last charges don't disappear, though I hear that Mana Stones will disappear completely if the last charge is used. Is this true? Mana Stones start with 3 charges, and if I use the 3rd charge, it will just disappear? I'm too afraid to try it. If this is true, then Mana Stones only can effectively get 2 uses.
To the point that I was trying to make earlier, using an item's charges is similar to using instruments and gadgets (which is why the Bard and Gadgeteer don't benefit from Powercast, or they would be too powerful). It's hit or miss (it seems like some battles, the Bard is able to effortlessly freeze the scorchers solid, and other times, it's wasting stamina). It's almost as if the Bard and Gadgeteer are treated as hybrids, in terms of "spell" effectiveness.
Also, you can't control the power level that they "cast" at (a level 36 Bard "casts" at level 3 Freeze All, like really?) You would think that the game would optimize the Bard and Gadgeteer so that they always "cast" at the highest power level that they can cast with 100% success (especially due to their lack of Powercast).
Ok, point proven, for a low level party. For a higher level party, it's just a scratch with the scorchers, and Heal All can be cast "for free" from the Bard or Gadgeteer after the battle (both have Heal All instruments/gadgets). Note that that will probably not be necessary, as I am a level 36 (Bard/Gadgeteer) and 35 (Specialist Caster) party, with everybody loaded with Amulets of Healing to regenerate hit points.
I wouldn't worry about Body of Stone at this point. I never used it before this MDP. Its' greatest use is when you are trying to increase a melee skill, and you need a tank to hold the line. I never use it anymore, as a MDP is supposed to blast a party from a distance. The only use I can see for BOS in my future would be for boss enemies, which are few and far between. Too long, didn't read (TL;DR), don't worry about it.
avatar
RChu1982: I'm pretty sure that most weapons and armor that use the last charges don't disappear, though I hear that Mana Stones will disappear completely if the last charge is used. Is this true? Mana Stones start with 3 charges, and if I use the 3rd charge, it will just disappear? I'm too afraid to try it. If this is true, then Mana Stones only can effectively get 2 uses.
If an item is equipable, it will not disappear when it runs out of charges, and it can be sold and re-bought to recharge it, provided that the item doesn't have the Quest Item flag. (If it does, then there's no way to recharge it, but the one case I can think of (the FlameQuencher Wand) will disappear anyway once you use it where it needs to be used.)

If an item is *not* equipable, then it will disappear when it runs out of charges; this includes not just Mana Stones, but things like Duct Tape. Furthermore, if that last use comes from non-combat use of the "use last item" shortcut, the game may crash with an assertion.

With Mana Stones, that does mean that, if you intend to recharge them, they effectively get only 2 uses between charges. However, if you *don't* intend to recharge them, you can use them 3 times, and (as long as Crock is still alive) they can be bought for cheap, having the same base price as Magic Nectar. Assuming that the success rate of Mana Stones is higher than 1/3 (a reasonable assumption, given how Artifacts will get some points automatically through normal play and how low the skill required for 100% success rate is), buying Mana Stones and using them is more cost-effective than buying Magic Nectar and using it. (With that said, note that, particularly after going through Rapax territories, you will likely have more Magic Nectar than you'll probably ever need.)

Also, you mention you're too afraid to try it, but why not just save first, try what you want to try, then reload afterwords? (This is assuming you aren't playing Ironman, of course.)


From what I've read, there's a way to make a character completely immune to physical damage, at which point the character is apparently also immune to status from physical attacks.

Requirements, from my understanding, are as follows:
* Must be a Dwarf or a Monk. (I recommend Dwarf here, as Monk's stealth makes them less likely to be targeted, which is not desirable for this setup.)
* Must have Iron Skin unlocked, meaning 100 base Vitality, and have a high score in that skill. (Worth noting that there's a Bard only piece of equipment that boosts this skill.)
* Someone in the party must have the Body of Stone spell (which means the character must have Alchemy). Furthermore, that same character must have high Power Cast.
* Cast Body of Stone on the character in question, and that character will become invincible, at least against physical attacks, until the spell wears off. Who needs Guardian Angel at this point?

Another use of Body of Stone is via the Granite Potion, which apparently Burz sells. If you're having trouble with Gregor, drinking this potion might make the fight easier.
Post edited August 02, 2023 by dtgreene
avatar
RChu1982: To the point that I was trying to make earlier, using an item's charges is similar to using instruments and gadgets (which is why the Bard and Gadgeteer don't benefit from Powercast, or they would be too powerful). It's hit or miss (it seems like some battles, the Bard is able to effortlessly freeze the scorchers solid, and other times, it's wasting stamina). It's almost as if the Bard and Gadgeteer are treated as hybrids, in terms of "spell" effectiveness.
Thing is, an offensive spell cast by a Bard or Gadgeteer is going to be better at penetrating resistance than that of a full caster without Power Cast, and I suspect other item cast spells might work the same way.

So, the order would be something like, from best to worst:
* Full caster with Power Cast
* Bard/Gadgeer or Power Cast Hybrid (toss-up here)
* Full caster without Power Cast
* Hybrid without Power Cast

Note that Bard/Gadgeteer can reach this level of casting without having to put points into Intelligence, allowing them to put the points elsewhere.

One drawback of Bard/Gadgeteer, however, is that their spells use the same resource that physical attacks use, whereas for hybrids you can cast all you want and it won't significantly affect your stamina. The other drawbacks are the inability to control power level (as you mentioned), and the inventory space and weight that instruments/gadgets take up, not to mention that you don't have the option to pick spells at level up, as they must all be found for these two classes.

avatar
RChu1982: Ok, point proven, for a low level party. For a higher level party, it's just a scratch with the scorchers, and Heal All can be cast "for free" from the Bard or Gadgeteer after the battle (both have Heal All instruments/gadgets). Note that that will probably not be necessary, as I am a level 36 (Bard/Gadgeteer) and 35 (Specialist Caster) party, with everybody loaded with Amulets of Healing to regenerate hit points.
I suspect that you don't need Element Shield at your level, either.
Post edited August 02, 2023 by dtgreene
Level up time! The Bard and Gadgeteer hit level 37, and the specialist casters hit level 36, due to hanging out in the Mountain Wilderness fighting various scorchers (two battles with the prized Molten Scorchers made my casters, then the Bard and Gadgeteer, level up). Lucky me.
I have the "perfect" varied MDP, with six unique "flavors" of magic, that all level relatively quickly (Bard, Gadgeteer, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage), arranged in order of relative strength (hit points, armor choices, etc).
I have noted that the casters have not even 9 skill points to distribute at level up, forced to put a few points into silly things like Communication (when the Bard is already handling that), Staff and Wand for the Priest (who has the monopoly on Mace and Flail weapons), and Dagger for the Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage (that's when you know you're powerful).
There is nothing like this game (W8). The character building, the voices, the racial and class balance, the strategy of battle placement, I could go on and on. As an older Millennial, this game has definitely stood the test of time (though it might be intimidating to the younger generations).
Crock is dead. So using more than 2 charges from Mana Stones means that it is gone forever, just like Duct Tape. I shuffle Mana Stone usage around, basically getting everyone to around 80 Artifacts skill. Not that this matters really, as any higher level item can be identified with the Identify Item spell. The only reason to use Mana Stones vs Magic Nectar is that the former can increase the Artifacts skill, though it doesn't really matter at this point in the game.
Even if you did make a character "immune to physical damage", they can still suffer the side effects of physical attacks, as far as I know. Level 34 Molten Scorchers can inflict KO and Drain HP with their claws, so it's best to back off, and let them breathe fire at you for trivial damage.
I have heard that Music and Engineering benefit from a hidden (sort of) Powercast, especially once maxed. This would mean that they would be on par with their spell point casting counterparts, if only they could reliably cast their spells at power level 7. I suppose that Powercast would make the Bard and Gadgeteer too powerful, as they only have to increase one skill (Music or Engineering), while the specialist casters have to increase not only their main spellbook skill (Divinity, Alchemy, Psionics, Wizardry), but each desired realm skill (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Mental, Divine).
avatar
RChu1982: The only reason to use Mana Stones vs Magic Nectar is that the former can increase the Artifacts skill, though it doesn't really matter at this point in the game.
Other reasons:
* Mana Stones can target characters other than the user. This can, for example, be useful if you're fighting a battle where you're doing magic damage, one of your casters needs SP, and you have a Fighter or Rogue who would otherwise be sitting there doing nothing useful.
* While Crock is still alive, Mana Stones are cheaper per use than Magic Nectar. (Also, the possibility of recharging them.)

On the other hand, Magic Nectar is far more common, and you end up with too much by endgame.

avatar
RChu1982: Even if you did make a character "immune to physical damage", they can still suffer the side effects of physical attacks, as far as I know. Level 34 Molten Scorchers can inflict KO and Drain HP with their claws, so it's best to back off, and let them breathe fire at you for trivial damage.
From what I have read, such a character does become immune to the side effects of those attacks.
Post edited August 03, 2023 by dtgreene
avatar
RChu1982: I have heard that Music and Engineering benefit from a hidden (sort of) Powercast, especially once maxed. This would mean that they would be on par with their spell point casting counterparts, if only they could reliably cast their spells at power level 7. I suppose that Powercast would make the Bard and Gadgeteer too powerful, as they only have to increase one skill (Music or Engineering), while the specialist casters have to increase not only their main spellbook skill (Divinity, Alchemy, Psionics, Wizardry), but each desired realm skill (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Mental, Divine).
From what I've read, Bards and Gadgeteers end up doing about 70% of the damage that full casters with Power Cast do when using similar spells. This would put them offensively on par with the Priest, but with the advantage of being stronger physically and the trade-offs that come with stamina casting.

Reliably casting a level 7 spell at PL7 is not going to happen, except in special cases. So, you either have to accept a slight risk or cast the spell at a lower power level.

In one game where I gave myself the Horn of Prometheus (casts Fireball, requires Bard level 5 and (IIRC) 30 skill), it actually did feel overpowered, even though logically that would be a spell you'd expect to have at that level.

(By the way. mod idea: Put a guaranteed Cornu of Demonspan in the Demon Weapons chest. This would give certain parties (particularly non-import parties with Bards) a reason to return to the Monastery after getting that key.)

One more thing: There's an issue with 5th level Psionic spell picks. You get 3 (if you don't save spell picks), and there are 4 choices:
* Set/Return to Portal: Really good spell that you want on as many characters as possible. The Return books can be a pain to get, so you might want to use a spell pick on these spells.
* Psionic Blast: Really nice spell, and the spellbook isn't available until level 18, when Ferro sells it, So, this is a must pick.
* Sane Mind: You really do want this spell on a Psionic, as it works well in conjunction with the Psionic themself being immune to the status ailments it cures. Situational, though.
* Instant Death: You might want to wait for a book to learn this spell. Except, there's one problem: The spellbook can't be used by a Psionic or Monk! In other words, you *have* to pick this spell (or multiclass), or you will never learn it. See the problem?

(If you always pick spells of the highest available level and don't pick Instant Death sooner, you won't get it until level 21.)

(Other mod ideas: Let Anna sell the Book of Mind Stab (the item exists in the game data, but is nowhere to be found), and allow Psionics and Monks to learn Instant Death. Similarly, Braffit, Sadok, and maybe Fuzzfas would be made to sell the Book of Holy Water.)
I took an excursion to Bayjin. There were a lot of battles, both set and random. I cleared out the tents, of course the only important items were a Vaporizor for the Gadgeteer, and talking to Jan-Ette only twice resulted in a *Light Shield* for my Priest.
First time! it only took two tries to get a *Light Shield* for the Priest.
avatar
RChu1982: I took an excursion to Bayjin. There were a lot of battles, both set and random. I cleared out the tents, of course the only important items were a Vaporizor for the Gadgeteer, and talking to Jan-Ette only twice resulted in a *Light Shield* for my Priest.
First time! it only took two tries to get a *Light Shield* for the Priest.
Jan-ette is how I got a Light Shield on two previous playthroughs. (I avoided talking to her on this one.)

I consider the Light Shield to be too powerful, so I don't use it even if I do manage to obtain it.

The Frontier Phaser, on the other hand, is an interesting weapon that I wish were more readily available.