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Wizardry seriesNew MDP(384 posts)(384 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 17, 2023
I would say that I have created a balanced party.
The Bard and Gadgeteer can stamina-cast spells, and the four casters can mana-cast their unique spellbooks, enhanced by Powercast.
The Bard and Gadgeteer have Tripleshot Crossbows, and the four casters have Wrist Rockets.
The Bard and Gadgeteer will have *Light Swords* and *Light Shields*. The Priest has the luxury of: Diamond Eyes, The Mauler, Cat O' Nine Tails, and Vampire Chain, being the only party member with that weapon set (Mace and Flail). The Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage all have Staves of Doom ready for them, with the Alchemist being ready for it (having maxed Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills), and the Psionic and Mage training those skills.
Posted July 17, 2023
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RChu1982: I would say that I have created a balanced party.
The Bard and Gadgeteer can stamina-cast spells, and the four casters can mana-cast their unique spellbooks, enhanced by Powercast.
The Bard and Gadgeteer have Tripleshot Crossbows, and the four casters have Wrist Rockets.
The Bard and Gadgeteer will have *Light Swords* and *Light Shields*. The Priest has the luxury of: Diamond Eyes, The Mauler, Cat O' Nine Tails, and Vampire Chain, being the only party member with that weapon set (Mace and Flail). The Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage all have Staves of Doom ready for them, with the Alchemist being ready for it (having maxed Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills), and the Psionic and Mage training those skills.
For my current party:
* I haven't been using ranged weapons. In my experience, having to carry ammo makes encumbrance management significantly more cumbersome.
* On the other hand, 5 of my characters have Power Strike or are close to getting it. (I think one of my bishops is close, though I don't remember whether "close" means "has enough XP to learn it" or "will need to gain another level after the next level up"; I think it might be the latter. This, in turn, means that the heavy weight of gadgets isn't that much of an issue.
* 3 characters have what I would consider stamina-intensive set-ups. Hence, Rest All, which 3 of my characters can cast (2 with Power Cast), is quite useful for this party.
* Jan-ette is still alive, so getting a Light Shield is still possible. However, my AC is good enough that I don't need it, and my lowest HP character has that Stealth Cape, making her less likely to be targeted. The only character whose AC isn't exceptional is my Valkyrie, and she has enough HP that it's not a problem, plus she can cheat death (and my Bard can just use Restoration on her now if that happens).

By the way, it looks like the set-up for best Artifacts use is something like this:
* Class: Bishop (for the 25% boost) or Psionic (if you want to use stix, since Bishop can't use them). Ranger is also an option. Psionic and Ranger are chosen because both can benefit from high Senses.
* Stats: Intelligence and Senses, since they affect the rate of Artifacts growth.
* So, this character gets Eagle Eye, and hence may want to use ranged weapons when not using item charges. Ranger has the advantage here, having access to bows, while the other two classes are stuck with slings.
* Oh, and there's Power Cast, but unfortunately that doesn't help with Artifacts usage. So, maybe we should find a way to make use of this in this build? Maybe there's a way a Bishop could take advantage of Power Cast?

(Note: That last point is a bit of a joke. Last time I checked, my elf bishop in my party had 50+ Power Cast, and I believe this is without putting any points into the skill.)
Posted July 17, 2023
My dwarf priest just learned Might to Magic after I trained her Psionics up to 57. (It's now 60, not counting the bonus from her helmet.)

Also got her Lifesteal, while the elf opted for Firestorm instead of Lifesteal. (Could have gone with Lightning, which would have given her a strong fire spell since it's a long time before her 55 Wizardry would get high enough to learn Nuclear Blast.)

My elf bishop could learn Mind Flay at the next level up, if I so choose. (80 Psionics means she's close, plus there's still that one helmet.) But I may prioritize Restoration.

Ferro isn't selling the remaining level 5 spells.

By the way, another training strategy: Give the Destinae Dominus to someone who isn't wearing the Helm of Serenity, or place it in party inventory. Then cast Sane Mind at the auto-recast level. This will quickly raise Mental Magic and whichever of Divinity and Psionics is higher.

Also, non-standard RPC build idea: Recruit Urq and change him into a Bishop. He starts at level 9 with Power Cast, and can meet the Bishop's stat requirements at level 11. This will allow him to learn a few non-Psionic spells, and give him better HP and equipment. Late game, you might change him back to Psionic (but remember he doesn't handle Ascension Peak well). Might be an idea for a 7 or 8 Bishop party.
Posted July 18, 2023
Since the Psionic and Mage have such poor armor choices, I gave the Helm of Brilliance to the Mage, since she has the worst HPs and armor selection. The Psionic, similarly, got the Helm of Serenity, due to poor HPs and armor selection.
These two classes suffer the worst hit points in the game, and don't even get decent armor. No gloves whatsoever (even Chamois Gloves), no shields, terrible upper and lower body armor, feet armor are limited to Buskins.
To your point, my Priest got Lifesteal (not that I ever use it, as the Bard, Gadgeteer, and Priest can now cast Heal All, and the Priest, Alchemist, and Psionic can cast Heal Wounds).
The Psionic has a unique spell, Might to Magic, which I have used often, just to regain lost spell points (the enemy has to be vulnerable to the Divine realm, useful on undead).
Do you think that training for the Staff of Doom is useful for the Psionic and Mage? Normally, this wouldn't be an issue, but since I got 2 additional SODs by grinding 2 Rapax Corpses, this is a viable strategy.
I end up in Arnika, grinding as I always have, for the Psionic and Mage to max Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills, something that would normally be unheard of.
Posted July 18, 2023
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RChu1982: Since the Psionic and Mage have such poor armor choices, I gave the Helm of Brilliance to the Mage, since she has the worst HPs and armor selection. The Psionic, similarly, got the Helm of Serenity, due to poor HPs and armor selection.
Given your party, I would do it the other way around, as the 30% mental resist is wasted on a psionic, who is immune to status ailments from mental spells (except maybe Concussion, but that's only single target, and you do have Restoration for that case, right?), while the mage does not have that immunity.

I believe I have it on my dwarf bishop, though a strong case could be made to give it to my valkyrie, particularly since I'm not (as of now) using Infinity Helms.

I'm still thinking of modding the game to make certain items more available. One idea I had was to place the Cornu of Demonspawn, normally an import-only item, into the Demon Weapons chest, as that would actually give me a good reason to go back and get that chest, at least if the party has a bard in it.

Another interesting idea would be to change the Lyre of Cakes to cast Restore Health, and then place it somewhere. (Wizardry 6's Lyre of Cakes is supposed to cast Helpfood, which is the Wizardry 6/7 equivalent of Restore Health; however, that item isn't actually obtainable in-game. In Wizardrty 7, that item was changed to cast Healthful (the spell that became Heal All in 8), but there are some reports it doesn't actually work. Wizardry 8's version casts Heal All, which would make it redundant if you could acquire it somehow. seeing as there are two Dulcimers of Mending.)

Making the Bard more capable offensively mid-game could also be done by placing a Horn of Prometheus or Bullroarer somewhere in the game. (The Horn of Prometheus felt a bit too powerful the playthrough where I hacked it in early.)

This game really could have used something like that one spot in Wizardry 7 where you get a choice between multiple high-level treasures. Make it so that the player doesn't need to rely on luck to get the item they want, but still make them choose which item would work best for their party.

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RChu1982: These two classes suffer the worst hit points in the game, and don't even get decent armor. No gloves whatsoever (even Chamois Gloves), no shields, terrible upper and lower body armor, feet armor are limited to Buskins.
There's also the Spiked Boots. Because they're an essential quest item, everyone can equip them. (Othewise, a party containing only psionics, mages, and/or fairies wouldn't be able to get the Destinae Dominus, at least not without some trickery.)

Edit: Also, I would argue that their upper body options aren't terrible because they can use the Robe of Rejuvenation, and I can't think of anything that would be worth equipping over that in that slot for any character that can equip it. Either the character can't use the Infinity Helm, in which it's the only way to get SP regen (and the HP/Stamina regen is useful for those who don't get SP), or if the character can equip that helm, the extra AC of better armor is not worth the added weight, since anyone who can equip that help gets a lot of HP.
Post edited July 18, 2023 by dtgreene
Posted July 18, 2023
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RChu1982: To your point, my Priest got Lifesteal (not that I ever use it, as the Bard, Gadgeteer, and Priest can now cast Heal All, and the Priest, Alchemist, and Psionic can cast Heal Wounds).
Lifesteal is handy if you have a bard whose only offensive options are that or Shrill Sound, or possibly if you're casting it via the (rare) Faust Halberd, Remember, bard/gadgeteer magic offense really falls off in the teens, as your early offensive options peter out, and the only other area attack items (other than that unpredictable Strobe Light) require level 18 to use.

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RChu1982: Do you think that training for the Staff of Doom is useful for the Psionic and Mage? Normally, this wouldn't be an issue, but since I got 2 additional SODs by grinding 2 Rapax Corpses, this is a viable strategy.
I haven't had a need to train weapon skills period. Just attacking with the weapon a lot over normal gameplay has been enough to keep them up at decent levels.

In my current game, my Ranger actually has good sword skill, despite the fact that I switched her from polearms late. (First Bloolust to build up the skill faster, then the Giant's Sword to use that skill.)

There's also the fact that multiple Death Clouds don't stack, making it not as useful to have Staves of Doom than you might think.

Also, did you know that the Staff of Doom used to be capable of petrifying on hit?
Post edited July 18, 2023 by dtgreene
Posted July 19, 2023
I did not know that the Staff of Doom used to be capable of petrifying on hit. I'm a little bit different from you, in that, I don't typically use weapons for their charges, more for their damage (selling items constantly is so annoying, which is why I sold the Gadgeteer's Magic Mirror, with Eye for an Eye recharges).
I want a party capable of punishing the enemy magically, with both close and ranged combat physical options if necessary (Nessie, Lava Lord, El Dorado, Al-Sedexus, Dark Savant).
I've been stuck recently, due to the condition of being on the spectrum (having 80s or 90s Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills on the Psionic and Mage). I'm trying to ready them for the Staff of Doom, something which is usually unheard of, having more than one SOD user.
Posted July 19, 2023
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RChu1982: I did not know that the Staff of Doom used to be capable of petrifying on hit.
Wizardry 7 Staff of Doom has 25% paralyze, 15% kill, and 10% petrify. In Wizardry 8, that petrify chance was replaced with a hex chance, as the petrify status was removed in 8 for some reason, even though it's been in every other Sir-Tech Wizardry game. (In 1-5, curing it requires the equivalent of Restoration (a 6th level spell back then) or taking the character to the temple, but no penalties or risks. In 6 and 7, you need the Cure Stone spell, and the character loses a point of Vitality, and since petrified characters can be attacked, the character might still be dead, costing another point of Vitality to cure.)

(The hex status, I believe, is only in 8.)

By the way, in Wizardry 6 and 7, polearms and staves use the same skill, whereas wands use the skill that daggers use.


By the way, the Faust Halberd, originally appearing in Wizardry 5 (I believe), was not cursed until Wizardry 7. That could be a rather unpleasant surprise for anyone importing that weapon from 6 to 7.

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RChu1982: I've been stuck recently, due to the condition of being on the spectrum (having 80s or 90s Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills on the Psionic and Mage). I'm trying to ready them for the Staff of Doom, something which is usually unheard of, having more than one SOD user.
That's enough skill. Don't forget that actually using the Staff of Doom as a weapon will provide further skill increases.

(If your Artifacts skill is comparable, it's also good enough for the as item effect, though if you have a level 22 Alchemist (or Bishop, of course) with good Air Magic skill, you can just cast a Death Cloud of that strength.)
Post edited July 19, 2023 by dtgreene
Posted July 20, 2023
I'm so pissed off with work, as I told you before, that I enjoy a nice grinding session. If I can get the Psionic and Mage to 100 Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills, then I feel that I have completed training. I'm weird, in that I have to master everything, then ascend to Cosmic Lords.
Note that I have fun in the Mountain Wilderness, killing level 34 Molten Scorchers for high experience. This will push most parties near level 40 with patience.
Ascension Peak has a lot of Gazer enemies, which can be killed with magic, though it might take a while. I know that it took a while for my party to kill a few level-equivalent Gazers with magic.
Posted July 20, 2023
One thing: From what I've read, if you have 99 in a skill (without bonuses), and the controlling attributes average to less than 50, the skill increase chance is 0%.

I believe that if the average is 50-99, the skill increase chance is 1%, and if you have 100 in all controlling attributes, it's up to 2%. (Game rounds fractions down.) Furthermore, expert skills are a special case, and the chance is only half; 1% for that last point if you have 100 in the stat, and if the skill is somehow open with less than 100, the chance would be 0%. (No idea if that's possible; if it is, then it would likely require stat loss from disease.)

Also, apparently the game only uses the base values of the ability scores, so that Helm of Brilliance doesn't help. Furthermore, you need 8 successful skill increase checks to get the skill up 1 point, though at least you can get multipkle checks at a time.

At least this is my understanding of how this works.
Posted July 21, 2023
From my understanding, it doesn't work that way.
My Human Priest had 45 Strength and Dexterity (the controlling attributes for Mace and Flail skill), and still maxed it. Yes, it took a while, but it still happened.
This is why you want to use the weakest version of a weapon you can. In this case, it would be the 2-handed, extended range Quarterstaff, doing 1-6 damage.
The Psionic and Mage get 2 swings per attack, and 2 attacks per turn with this weapon. Note that this can take around 40 or 50 rounds to take out a group of Savant Slashers this way, but can generate a lot of skill gains.
I know that the Helm of Brilliance won't help my Mage with skill increases, it's more that she has such poor hit points that a decent armored helm would be good, with such poor armor selection.
Posted July 21, 2023
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RChu1982: This is why you want to use the weakest version of a weapon you can. In this case, it would be the 2-handed, extended range Quarterstaff, doing 1-6 damage.
Not necessarily. You want to have a weapon that has good non-damage characteristics. In particular:
* To hit is good because you get more skill increase checks when you hit than when you miss.
* Initiative is good because, if it pushes a hidden value past a certain threshold, you get a chance of getting another swing, which is another chance ofr skill increases.
* Extra swings are *really* good because those extra swings give you more skill increases.

In particular, the Doubleshot Sling, Tripleshat Crossbow, and Doublestrike Dagger are really good for raising the corresponding weapon skills. Just make sure you have enough basic ammo.
Posted July 22, 2023
That was preceded by a specific example. Of course there are mechanics in that game that encourage grouping enemies, but NWN is no Doom II.

Latter Castlevania have that, which is great when one is skilled at the game. My casual behind just used it to cheese the final boss in Order of Ecclesia. But I was more thinking of being a good crit or two away from death.

I can see a knee-jerk reaction to forcing the player, but games do control what the user can do by nature. It's far better to implement systems that gel together than chasing sales, fame, or what have you. Which is why anyone making a blobber, for example, shouldn't just slap in an auto-map. Such a dev should consider if their systems would be better or worse with one. Similar thoughs on quick-saves and save anywhere. [Although, a temp save is oft a good compromise.]

Yeah, but it can lead to degenerative gameplay. Some healing, in Infinite Adventures, can only be done in battle. This, actually, encourages burning empower.

Ammo is hardly a concern early, but it can become problematic once everyone has three attacks, and three, or more, max swings. Maxing strength on everyone is not a bad idea for a ranged party, and inventory management is fun.

Yeah, even a monk can get cursed gloves... That still protects from crab's special unarmored bonus, right? Doesn't much matter, because stealth, DR, and it's a random item anyway.

Lifesteal isn't particularly great, but it is better than make wounds after a certain point. Might to magic, on the other hand, is far more useful. But I use a lot of single target spells in mid-mid-game.

Wiz8 could have also used earlier weapon availability, for the road. But that's a far lesser issue, since the lack of early-game training is insignificant.

The robes of rejuvenation are great for everyone. There are occasions where other armor can be better, often weaker parties, but it really is great. To bad ninjas don't get it, but that's the ninja balancing.

Leveling weapon skills was even easier in Bane and Crusaders.

⁂

It's amazing how fast divinity can level compared to other schools. My valk already has thirty points, and the lord twenty-nine, while the others are about twenty-three in their school skills. Also, it's quite incredible how much money can be made from just heavy heal potions. I think leveling artifacts on at least one character would make the game a bit easier, since it takes so long for full spell-casting warrior party to get powerful identify item. Any items would be gravy on top of that. I think the gamey choice would be monk, for mindblast, but if high enough artifacts can be obtained to identify the given bombs before arnika, that'd be lovely. In fact, if the ninja can get high enough to reliably use the fire stix...

I think this party could ironman the game, but would have to work out how to reduce the early luck reliance. Or just use exploits, grinding, or monster manipulation... And the party does have stealth and a valk... Bah! this game is too easy. Maybe I should just take a break from blobbers and play some tactical turned-based games. Oh... guess that means Dragon Quarter...
Posted July 22, 2023
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ZyroMane: Latter Castlevania have that, which is great when one is skilled at the game. My casual behind just used it to cheese the final boss in Order of Ecclesia. But I was more thinking of being a good crit or two away from death.
Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia has a ring that literally makes you one hit away from death all the time. It does, however, provide a massive stat bonus (which means that even your defense increases, not that it matters), but with the ring making you die in one hit, you have to be careful.

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ZyroMane: Which is why anyone making a blobber, for example, shouldn't just slap in an auto-map. Such a dev should consider if their systems would be better or worse with one.
Interestingly enough, the just-released Demon Lord Reincarnation does not have an automap.

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ZyroMane: inventory management is fun.
This is actually something I find often not to be the case.

(A reasonable compromise might be to separate consumables from other items. You would only be able to carry a limited number of consumables at a time (but make it easy to restock them in-between expeditions, except maybe for items that are particularly powerful), but there'd be no such restrictions on more permanent items, like weapons in most games.)

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ZyroMane: Wiz8 could have also used earlier weapon availability, for the road. But that's a far lesser issue, since the lack of early-game training is insignificant.
On the other hand, I think that weapon attacks, particularly melee, get a bit too good later on in Wizardry 8. You get weapons that do tons of damage, and each character is going to get 2-4 total swings in a round, and that's for full casters; fighter-types can get even more attacks. It really does feel like melee attacks get too powerful, particularly in comparison to magic. And then the developers put in enemies like El Dorado, who is basically immune to spells but dies too easily to physical attacks.
Post edited July 22, 2023 by dtgreene
Posted July 22, 2023
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ZyroMane: It's amazing how fast divinity can level compared to other schools. My valk already has thirty points, and the lord twenty-nine, while the others are about twenty-three in their school skills. Also, it's quite incredible how much money can be made from just heavy heal potions. I think leveling artifacts on at least one character would make the game a bit easier, since it takes so long for full spell-casting warrior party to get powerful identify item. Any items would be gravy on top of that. I think the gamey choice would be monk, for mindblast, but if high enough artifacts can be obtained to identify the given bombs before arnika, that'd be lovely. In fact, if the ninja can get high enough to reliably use the fire stix...
High artifacts skill can be quite useful for Amulet of Healing use, particularly if the party has nobody who can cast Heal All. Seeing as how that spell is in only one of the spellbooks, that could reasonably happen. (Although, there's the issue that Aromorplate and Magic Screen won't be reasonably accessible to such a party. (The Amulet of Screens (I think that's what it's called) should have been realistically obtainable.))

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ZyroMane: I think this party could ironman the game, but would have to work out how to reduce the early luck reliance. Or just use exploits, grinding, or monster manipulation... And the party does have stealth and a valk... Bah! this game is too easy. Maybe I should just take a break from blobbers and play some tactical turned-based games. Oh... guess that means Dragon Quarter...
I didn't get Dragon Quarter when it came out, as it wasn't what I was looking for in an RPG, and it did some things I strongly disagree with, like needing a rare consumable to save. and copy-protecting the save file (the latter of which I consider a form of DRM).

I will likely never play Ironman mode on any game where it's an option.
Post edited July 22, 2023 by dtgreene
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Wizardry seriesNew MDP(384 posts)(384 posts)
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