After seeing the topic on Wizardry 8 formulas and reading part of the linked Russian thread, I am thinking of starting Wizardry 8 yet again. I am thinking of a party along these lines:

Lizardman Fighter (or Dwarven Lord) using Staves (notably the Staff of Doom); might use different weapons before getting said Staff
Dwarven Valkyrie using Pole Arms (Stun Rod); thinking of starting with a Dwarven Priest in this slot, then replacing her in Arnika
Ranger using Maces and Dual Wielding
Bard using Swords (Bloodlust)
Gadgeteer using ?; I am actually planning on starting with a Faerie Mage and replacing her once I get to Trynton (Gadgeteers level up quickly and don't need as many skills as some other classes)
Human Bishop focusing on magic

How does this party sound?

Also, for the Bishop, which approach should I take:
1. Save all spell picks for high level spells, or
2. Avoid using spell picks for higher level spells than the level they're gained at would allow (so only spell picks for levels 14+ may be used for 6th level spells, and only those from 18+ for 7th level)
(Choice 2 should be treated as a self-imposed limitation)

Edit: Another possibility might be a Samurai for the first slot, but still going with Staves; this would get me Critical Strike.

Also, one other constraint: I dislike the way Stealth works in this game, therefore, as a self-imposed rule, classes that get Stealth are forbidden.

Seems fine, for the most part. I'm not personally a big fan of Bloodlust, though, especially on a bard. On the whole I'm not really a big fan of cursed short weapons at all, since you end up wasting a lot of your turns. Even with Bloodlust's extra strike and berserk attack, it never really performed well for me except in the hands of a rogue. I'd be a lot more inclined to go with whip/shield for the bard personally.

Not sure why you'd want to replace a character, especially after the game has started. Gadgeteers and Bards work really really well together, but if you're concerned about them levelling too fast and mucking up the scaling, just make a second ranger instead and focus on ranged attacks and alchemy. This can relieve some of the strain from your Bishop, too... if you make the second Ranger a more dedicated caster you can get more clouds attacks and/or potentially drop Alchemy from your Bishop entirely.

Here's the logic behind the Mage->Gadgeteer change.

Mage: Mages are quite good early on, especially if the mage is a fairy and focuses on SPD and SEN (for optimal initiative). We get fast SP regen, high Initiative (allowing her to act before the enemies do), and our choice of Freeze Flesh or Noxious Fumes for disabling enemies. Also, we can get Enchanted Blade and Missile Shield early, before we reach Arnika Road. Unfortunately, this setup isn't ideal in the long run; carrying capacity becomes an issue, the fairy isn't able to use most equipment (in particular, she can''t use the Robe of Rejuvenation, putting her behind other races in terms of SP regen late game), and this setup doesn't get Power Cast.

Gadgeteer: Early on, not that good; the Omnigun is worse than a sling, and the good low level gadgets tend not to be available until the Swamp or Marten's Bluff. Later on, however, Gadgeteers become incredibly useful, being able to stamina cast very nice spells, and they level up quickly and don't require as much training as spellcasters do.

By doing this swap, I get a character to help through the early game (in particular, Arnika Road), and a character to help later on. There is a period where this character will be a bit weak, but once she gets her Engineering high enough to use the Lava Lamp (conveniently located in Trynton, not far from the Intelligence fountain which also conveniently provides an XP bonus), she can start to contribute meaningfully.

Also, I don't really like duplicating classes in my party, as I like each character in my party to be unique.

My view: Staff of Doom is an awesome weapon. Loved it on my Ninja. Might get it even relatively early, if you focus on Mountain wilderness.

Stun rod is only second to Dread spear, my solo Valk switched between Stun Rod and Dread Spear until she became practically invulnerable with AC. Damage is a bit low on the Stun Rod, even with the bonus on paralyzed enemies.

Agree with bevinator on the bloodlust. I was never quite happy with that weapon, requires hefty investments in STR/DEX/SEN, otherwise misses too much. The berserk also gives stamina problems, which is an issue with the bard. I would let him focus on her music, give him a weapon with extended range.

You explained the L1 Gadgeteer starting in Trynton in an earlier post iirc. I didn't try a Gadgie yet.

On the bishop, saving all picks means you will miss the spells of Kunar and Ferro for a long time, since for the Stun Rod you need to do the T'Rang quests first, unless you want to take the risk of being detected as double agent. On the other hand, the L7 spells are not all worth it and redundant if you play all 4 books. Personally, I would take 10 picks with the bish and save the rest for L6/7.

Unless you need the high damage of the Fighter, I think the crit ability of the Samurai would add some spice to the battle routine and offer additional options on some tough opponents. You can get a bushido pretty early and later switch to Fang.

Just because you have two of the same class in your party doesn't mean they have to be identical. I had a party with two ninjas in it once, one was a fairie for the Cane of Corpus focused on str/dex and the other was a Felpurr focused on senses/speed/dex for thrown criticals, and they were phenomenally different characters. Apart from a marginal weapon usage overlap, it was like night and day. Similarly, Lord and Valkyrie are very very similar classes but work quite well together.

Lizard fighter is damage dealer and Dwarven Lord is defence... the lord is almost unkillable if made right (and less likly to kill her own party) so I'd lean to her.
imo the 'Mindblast Rod" is the best stick in the game so I'd make a character to use it instead of mucking around swapping them in and out

eg a Psionic-monk build that doesn't take stealth or even a Psionic | Bishop for more of a spell caster with a stick type.

anyway its your game... have fun and please post back with how you got on?

Can melee and ranged and (music/engineering/magic) all be trained reasonably in a party of 6?

If not, I would let the fighter do melee and ranged and the bard melee and music. Therefore, give the SoD to the bard? Would also avoid the competition mentioned in your post.

yup ... Its a bit grindy but doable ..

Actually, Fighter gets more HP than Lord, making them perhaps better defensively.

In either case, the character will be using the Staff of Doom. The Fighter will need an Amulet of Healing, but those are buyable not that far into the game and there are 2 of them waiting to be found; furthermore, I am going to want the +50 Divine resist anyway, and the +3 AC is nice, especially since I may be forgoing armor (or at least heavy armor) to save on encumbrance. Also, since this character has an extended ranged weapon, she (and the Valkyrie) don't need to be in the front, which means I could probably forego armor entirely and still have these characters survive. (Then again, some enemies like to fight at extended range, but I note that the Rynjin in particular resist water and hence paralysis; but then again the Fighter's KO ability will help with that.)

The Mindblast Rod has two issues: 1. I don't know if you can take it without angering the T'Rang. 2. Only three classes can use it: Monks, who get stealth (and "not taking stealth" isn't an option because of the way skills increase in this game), and Psionics and Bishops, who do not actually get Polearm skill (and who get poor AR growth). Personally, I would like to give the SoD to a class with max AR growth this time; that is, to a Fighter or hybrid. Bard only gets 3 per level, unlike the 4 that Fighters and hybrids get.

Also, Engineering and Music aren't much of a burden, because one skill covers every spell the character gets. The highest levels of Music, it turns out, are ridiculously easy to get; just give the Bard the Renaissance Lute, have her use it on herself, and then Shift-U it until her music skill maxes out. Engineering is a bit harder, but it will still rise nicely through normal usage.

(Shift-U is safe to use on instruments and gadgets; it's not safe to use on consumables because using the last one will crash the game with an assertion.)

I think you might be overvaluing the benefits to AR, NrAttacks and NrofSwings from leveling up a bit.

At low character levels "A" it would not matter much.
At very high character levels "B" it will again matter less since all professions can get the maximum number of attacks and swings eventually.
Especially if you don't sabotage the non-warrior professions with low initiative weapons (swings)..
Spell buffs (casted or via potions from alchemy $$$) will also narrow the performance gap. Pretty wide gaps between nr of attacks and swings breakpoints and with a few buffs you can often rise most your entire party past the current breakpoint for the few choice fights that need it ..

From pretty early in the game I tend to self sabotage my fighters, rogues and/or monks with crappy weapons so they don't kill everything too fast in melee and allow the rest of the characters chances to train their skills ..

The game can be typically be finished between "A" & "B" and mean the warrior professions will get extra attacks and swings a few levels faster, especially since on some of them you will be able to supplement training skill gains with level up skill points.

Anyone have any advice on how to build my bard and gadgeteer (especially gadgeteer)?

I am thinking that I want to focus on STR and VIT, in order to get stamina and carrying capacity up high. How does that sound?

Also, what races do you recommend?

(After all these years, I still don't know how best to build a gadgeteer.)

I build them both the same:

attributes
DEX + STR first for best melee & ranged capability.
Stop STR at 85 on both since they can dual wield +20 STR rings from Bella that brings them to 125. No powerstrike but worth it.

Next Max SPD + SEN. With bard in you'll get the drums of haste so buffing SPD in combat not a problem (can forcus on it after STR and DEX)..

And last pump VIT for extra late game carry capacity.

Skill point wise..
Engineering/Music until 75.. (will train fast on both with base attributes due to gadget/instrument use) ..
Sword & Close Combat..
Then Bow & Ranged Combat.. (very helpful in some fights ..Nessie )

Sprinkle shield up to 75 (heather shields) Both professions frail enough to appreciate the eventual +6 bonus to BAC. Stiletto in off-hand doesn't seem to benefit the extra grinding effort. (dual weapons & dagger)

I like felpurr as race for both ..

Just make sure to have (multiple) Divine/Alchemist casters to pump stamina into them during combat at least until you get the lute of perma stamina ..

Actually, I think 60 works just fine, as you can just stand in the fires in Arnika and Shift-U the Dulcimer of Mending or Regenerating Stone until your skill increases as much as desired; that should easily get you to at least 75. If you find a certain cursed item for a Bard, you can stop at 50, at which point that item will boost it to 60, which is enough to start Shift-U'ing the Dulcimer.

Also, Caliban's Cuirass exists and is buyable (according to Flamestryke's website), so I think it might be better to stop STR at 75 or 95, unless the use of a Robe of Rejuvenation is planned (reasonable choice because of STR regen). I also note that it boosts Iron Skin, but that's useless unless your base VIT is 100.

That particular lute does have its limitations:
1. Using it still uses up a turn during combat. (Then again, so does drinking a Stamina potion or casting a spell.)
2. Using it consumes 76 Stamina at no encumbrance; at blue encumbrance, it already consumes 95. At level 18, expect to see PL1-3 most of the time, which only restores an average of 72 Stamina, so this isn't particularly good for restoring Stamina. (On the other hand, I believe the effect comes *after* the Stamina loss, so if you are almost out of Stamina, this will still help.)
3. As with all musical instruments, this can fail if you are not good enough. I believe you need to be level 24 for this to become 100% reliable, and the Music skill required is over 100, so I hope you have that Puck's Cap handy.

Do you have a link to a resource that lists how bard/engineer casting works ? (lvl/skill amount required for 100% success rate)
can't find it anymore ..