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RChu1982: I'm going for no deaths (I managed to do it last time, so why not this time)? Dead characters lag behind in experience, as well as kidnapped ones from Crock.
Only if they're dead at the time XP is awarded.

I couldn't defeat the Battering Hogar, so I ran past it, took its treasure (including the Book of Return), then ran out of combat. My Psionic was dead, but there was no XP imbalance, so I just used a Resurrection Powder (still don't have an Amulet of Life).

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RChu1982: Are you going for 4-school Bishops eventually? I plan to, once I learn the good spells for the first 2 spellbooks for each Bishop (the useless ones can usually be found or bought, or ignored, in the case of level 6 and 7 spells).
Yes, although Psionics is lagging behind. I really want the human to get close to 60 Psionics before 13th level, so she can learn Psionic Blast at that level up. (My Psionic already knows that spell.)
Post edited September 21, 2023 by dtgreene
Fought Gregor at equal level (both he and the party were at level 5). I won handily, thanks to decent armor from Burz (he couldn't even hit my Bishop with his spit, and this is before Armorplate and Missile Shield).
I also won easily against the 9 set Roaches (thankfully, both Bishops learned Sleep, and could put 2 groups of 3 (6 total), to sleep, allowing me to chip away at them slowly.
After that, it was just clearing out the remainder of the Lower Monastery (not counting, of course, the Wheel Key/Cierdan's Tomb room, which will have to be re-visited later).
I still don't have a Polearm for the Ranger. Perhaps, the Valkyrie would be kind enough to lend it to him, so he can practice his Close Combat/Polearm skills, while she can practice her Ranged Combat/Bow skills.
Post edited September 22, 2023 by RChu1982
So balanced it's mostly beginner friendly. Not that bishops are that hard to figure. I do wonder how much scouting makes up for senses, though. But this party will have a max sens member eventually. (Of course, the hidden items are—for the most part—not that important. Gadget pieces and spell books, of course, are, often, quite useful.)

I see the quality of an all human party, but I like dump stats myself. I bet a lizardman makes a good divinity warrior. Dual wielding would suffer if one tried that, though. (That, in-and-of itself, might be fun, though.)

I'd say that using all schools on bishops, even in multiple, is often worth it.

Funny how the remaster of Proving Grounds has its own sub-forum. SIC SEMPER GOG.

Now, I'm tired of Wiz8, so my lizardman, dracon, felpurr, and rawulf only spell-casting warrior party is on hold. (Sure, mooks are somewhat simian, but they're maybe more of a legal wookiee.) I just find the game lacking in "tactical" fun. But, that's what I get for playing Jagged Alliance 2, Shadow Tactics, and Swordflight (as a Rogue/Red Dragon Disciple—the fighter/rogue without the fighter), just to name a few. Now, maybe if there was a playable rodent race...

[I wonder how that megaten-esque Touhou is.]
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ZyroMane: I see the quality of an all human party, but I like dump stats myself. I bet a lizardman makes a good divinity warrior. Dual wielding would suffer if one tried that, though. (That, in-and-of itself, might be fun, though.)
For fighters, I definitely prefer Dracon, so that you get a breath weapon which can come in handy when the rest of your party is doing magic damage. (That's why I made the Valkyrie, in both my previous and current party, a Dracon,)
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ZyroMane: Now, I'm tired of Wiz8, so my lizardman, dracon, felpurr, and rawulf only spell-casting warrior party is on hold. (Sure, mooks are somewhat simian, but they're maybe more of a legal wookiee.) I just find the game lacking in "tactical" fun. But, that's what I get for playing Jagged Alliance 2, Shadow Tactics, and Swordflight (as a Rogue/Red Dragon Disciple—the fighter/rogue without the fighter), just to name a few. Now, maybe if there was a playable rodent race...
Maybe they should have made Rattkin playable? (Or at the very least have a Rattkin RPC? After all, among the RPC's there's a Rapax and an Android, two races that are generally evil in this game.

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ZyroMane: Now, I'm tired of Wiz8, so my lizardman, dracon, felpurr, and rawulf only spell-casting warrior party is on hold. (Sure, mooks are somewhat simian, but they're maybe more of a legal wookiee.) I just find the game lacking in "tactical" fun. But, that's what I get for playing Jagged Alliance 2, Shadow Tactics, and Swordflight (as a Rogue/Red Dragon Disciple—the fighter/rogue without the fighter), just to name a few. Now, maybe if there was a playable rodent race...
Meanwhile, I've been sidetracked by a game called "The Incremental Dev Tree".

(I believe the number of points I currently have in that game is too big for nested scientific notation.)
Post edited September 23, 2023 by dtgreene
Level 6:
Valkyrie: Make Wounds
Ranger: Acid Splash
Divinity/Wizardry Bishop: Missile Shield
Alchemy/Psionics Bishop: Shrill Sound

I can't just go to the Upper Monastery, and Arnika Road, with such pathetic magic. I am casting level 1 and 2 spells at power level 1. Everybody knows how hard the first time through Arnika Road is. Therefore, I hung around the Lower Monastery, killing random spawns to get this level up.
My party is *so* balanced. I have a Fighter and Rogue up front, the two best melee characters in the game, with a Valkyrie and Ranger on the flanks, armed with Polearms to hit from extended range (when the Ranger actually gets one).
For range, the Fighter, Rogue, Valkyrie, and Ranger all have bows and crossbows (with the Ranger having ranged crits, though this can take a while to get good).
For magic, I have two Bishops. One is focused on Divinity and Wizardry (getting most of the buffs), while the other is focused on Alchemy and Psionics (making money for the party). The Valkyrie and Ranger will develop magic slowly, without Powercast, to help out with healing, curing debuffs, and maybe Element and Soul Shield later.
For "other" skills: The Rogue is working on Locks and Traps (he gets a bonus to this), and Stealth (getting good AC, while also being targeted less, passing most of the damage onto the Fighter, who can be protected with Guardian Angel).
The Valkyrie is working on Mythology, with less weapon skills to worry about (just Close and Ranged Combat, and Polearm and Bow skills).
The Ranger is working on Scouting, relieving the party of searching, or casting Detect Secrets (short duration). He also has less skills to worry about, focusing on Ranged Combat (for crits), and Bow skills primarily, and Close Combat and Polearm skills secondarily.
One Bishop is working on Artifacts (she gets a bonus to this). The other Bishop is working on Communication (high Intelligence and Senses makes for more skill increases).
Having everybody Human gives the most total stat points (5 more than a Hobbit, and 10 or 15 more than everybody else).

What does everybody think? As far as I know, that's about as well-thought out of a party as I know (a Dracon using their breath weapon grants no skill increases, unlike killing enemies with melee, ranged, or magic).
The problem with lizards is that one is often better with either a dwarf or a dracon. They all have passives, but the lizard's is a penalty. The resistances were probably meant to balance the races, but, well. Although, lizards do have higher speed.

Well, there are two trynnie RPCs, and they're rodent-esque creatures.

I like splitting the long-term buffs myself, but the synergy of alchemy/psionics cannot be denied.

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RChu1982: a Dracon using their breath weapon grants no skill increases, unlike killing enemies with melee, ranged, or magic
If you're going to grind anyway, why does that make much of a difference. It also increases early game survivability.

My party was, in order of addition: felpurr ninja, felpurr ranger, rawulf monk, dracon samurai, lizardman lord, lizardman valkyrie.
So you were doing a party of hybrids only? That seems watered down, compared to what I am about to do.
My early game is based on heavy grinding. Otherwise, how are the Bishops going to grind? Dracon Breath is not an option.
Post edited September 23, 2023 by RChu1982
I am about halfway to a new level. Fighting random spawns is the way of the game. I made sure to cast Light and Missile Shield after resting.
The warrior straight's point is to make early mid-game a wee more painful. Thanks to diminishing returns, it should be very good at the peak. If one want to break end-game, a bishop and five fighters can have a breezy time even at sub twenty levels. But a disarmer, and, maybe, a few extra casters, would probably be more fun. So the two I've often seen people use to have a quicker game are bishop, ninja, fighter quartet, and mage, alchemist, priest, <thief>, and fighter pair. My first party was, accidentally, mage, alchemist, priest, bard, rogue, and fighter. Kind of ruined the game. ;) But, it is why I always wonder why people find the game hard. The alchemist was a faerie, even!

Hmm, honestly, I've lost a lot of sensitivity to difficulty. I'm over here on the last mission of Shadow Tactics wondering how the game is "hard." My initial impression was even: "This is the easiest puzzle game I've ever played." Obvious hyperbole, seeing as I've played my fair share of gamer's first puzzle game, but it's no Chip's Challenge!

I wander. However, I'd like to say that the spell-casting warrior party does have a nice time against Gregor at level three. Could probably do him under at level two with only a few deaths, even. But I like things that aren't necessarily optimal. I'm evening trying that Neverwinter Nights Rogue-19/Bard-1/Red Dragon Diciple-20 build as a halfling. The lower damage is absolutely a factor at low levels, but it'll fade eventually. And no running around with a greatsword and eighteen strength at level one. Of course, I've lost some progress because I'm an idiot. I accidentally hit rest and quick-save at the same time. Oops.

I have a general preference to a plate-clad hammer and shield strength based character, but I've forced myself to be a bit more flexible. (That NWN character is going handaxe.) Sadly, I didn't give any of my Wiz8 characters maces. Sure, there are enough swords to support three swordsmen, but, like how I went stave with my monk, I should have gone mace with either the lord or the ranger. I think in the sense of weaker at different points, I should give it to the lord. But those nifty two-handed swords are hardly ever found anyway, and the lord could also leverage her primary skill that way. But, I'm going to do three shields and three extended. (Dual-wielding would be stronger, after all.) The ranger and ninja could also do well enough as ranged-only characters, if I wanted. But, the glory of six warriors in melee on the peak is probably worth the effort.
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ZyroMane: If one want to break end-game, a bishop and five fighters can have a breezy time even at sub twenty levels.
At the expense of having only one portal.

(Also, if something happens to he Bishop, that could be a problem, since Fighters don't get spells like Sane Mind.)

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ZyroMane: I accidentally hit rest and quick-save at the same time. Oops.
Wizardry 8 at least provides 3 quick save slots, so if you accidentally save instead of loading, you can go ton the load menu and load the second most recent quick save.

(Maybe more games should do that, or at least have it as an option?)

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ZyroMane: I have a general preference to a plate-clad hammer and shield strength based character, but I've forced myself to be a bit more flexible.
Personally, I find the Hammer works best in the off-hand with a mace of some sort in the main hand. This setup has some nice advantages:
* The Hammer boosts Mace & Flail, which will benefit the main hand Mace. If that Mace also boosts the flail (Enchanted Mace, for example), you will get a rather significant boost to that skill, which may get you the second main hand attack sooner than you would otherwise.
* The character will have a good skill in Mace & Flail by the time you get Diamond Eyes and The Mauler, which would be the late-game setup for this character.

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ZyroMane: Sure, there are enough swords to support three swordsmen
Honestly, it doesn't feel that way to me, unless your party has Mook fighter-types in it, or you get really lucky with random treasure.

(Speaking of random treasure. it appears I got *4* Bullwhips before Arnika. So, I really didn't need to add them to the shop, but I did in case I got unlucky.)
Post edited September 24, 2023 by dtgreene
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ZyroMane: But, the glory of six warriors in melee on the peak is probably worth the effort.
Honestly, when magic is an option, I find low tech melee combat to be rather boring.

Now, if you had characters using weapons like flamethrowers and rocket launchers, then things would be a lot more interesting. Unfortunately, those two weapon types aren't well implemented in Wizardry 8.
Level 7:
Valkyrie: Paralyze
Ranger: Stamina
Divinity/Wizardry Bishop: Enchanted Blade
Alchemy/Psionics Bishop: Insanity

Everything now takes twice as long to level up as the last one did. Thankfully, newer, tougher monster spawns give more experience, so it sort of evens out.

Edit: At this point, it would be foolish to try the Arnika Road for the first time. You either do it early, or very late (I choose the latter, with much better attributes, skills, and more spells).
Post edited September 24, 2023 by RChu1982
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RChu1982: Level 7:
Valkyrie: Paralyze
Ranger: Stamina
Divinity/Wizardry Bishop: Enchanted Blade
Alchemy/Psionics Bishop: Insanity

Everything now takes twice as long to level up as the last one did. Thankfully, newer, tougher monster spawns give more experience, so it sort of evens out.

Edit: At this point, it would be foolish to try the Arnika Road for the first time. You either do it early, or very late (I choose the latter, with much better attributes, skills, and more spells).
I wouldn't be taking those spells at that point simply because I'd already be in Arnika, where those spells are buyable.

(Well, except Stamina, for some reason, even though Rest All is.)
Which is why most would take at least two bishops. Having two portals makes portals far more useful, and reduces the time to beat the game. And turncoat can at least be worked around with some "fun" gameplay. Insanity is even easier to deal with. But, yeah, doesn't sound like my idea of a good time.

It's amazing that rotating quick saves is still not industry standard, but it is a lot more common. Even more fun is that NWN is one of those game with a quick save feature which lacks a quick load one.

The operative word is general.

There are three guaranteed one-handed end-game viable swords. There are even more two-handed ones. They're not great, save giant's; they're about on par with guaranteed axes. And there are a few more that don't require too much grinding/scumming to obtain. In the early mid-game one can get, at least, four decent swords, only really out-damaged by polearms until one goes to later areas. But, yes, staff of doom can be rushed if one is so inclined. (If one is stubborn enough, zatoichi bo and muramasa blade can be obtained early-ish. More so the former, though, not sure about the item sensor required level for the blade. Even the CoC can be rushed.)

That's just being a fuddy-dud. It feels le boring! Sure, it's fun to occasionally use rocket-propelled sledgehammers and chain-swords. (Maybe even a super-charged cattle prod.) But I was just fine running around an unrealistically clean California with a katana. That's fantasy enough, honestly. Especially when too many high-magic games have bog standard magic wherein technicolor fireballs are bread and butter. Traps are far much more fun, but that, like stealth, usually ends-up over-powered or worthless. Honestly, low-magic in general is often more fun, and it often makes better story. Counter-point: Wizardry OVA. Furthermore, many of the things that can make magic interesting work with engineering and physical prowess. I was going to say something about imsims, but then I remembered the gravity gun, and that's just telekinesis as technology. It's almost as if the real appeal of magic is to make quicker combat, or to appeal to casuals. (Easier to justify going nova and whatnot. Something, something creatively bankrupt.)

I like what I once saw someone say, "unlike real life, duct tape in Wizardry 8 gets better with age."
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ZyroMane: Which is why most would take at least two bishops. Having two portals makes portals far more useful, and reduces the time to beat the game. And turncoat can at least be worked around with some "fun" gameplay. Insanity is even easier to deal with. But, yeah, doesn't sound like my idea of a good time.
Or take a Psionic with you. If your Psionic is insane, it's because you didn't listen to what the game was telling you about a certain artifact.

(The only disabling status that neither an Alchemist nor a Psionic can cure with a spell is afflicted unconsciousness.)

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ZyroMane: It's amazing that rotating quick saves is still not industry standard, but it is a lot more common. Even more fun is that NWN is one of those game with a quick save feature which lacks a quick load one.
Does the game at least allow you to load during combat?

In Might and Magic 3-5, if you try lo load a save, you get the message "No loading allowed during combat." This is annoying, as it means I have to use a workaround of using the Mr. Wizard feature to leave combat, and *then* load the save.
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ZyroMane: I like what I once saw someone say, "unlike real life, duct tape in Wizardry 8 gets better with age."
Except that the Paralyze spell, which Duct Tape casts when used by a Gadgeteer, is only a level 1 spell, and therefore does not work well on higher level enemies.

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ZyroMane: That's just being a fuddy-dud. It feels le boring! Sure, it's fun to occasionally use rocket-propelled sledgehammers and chain-swords. (Maybe even a super-charged cattle prod.) But I was just fine running around an unrealistically clean California with a katana. That's fantasy enough, honestly. Especially when too many high-magic games have bog standard magic wherein technicolor fireballs are bread and butter. Traps are far much more fun, but that, like stealth, usually ends-up over-powered or worthless. Honestly, low-magic in general is often more fun, and it often makes better story. Counter-point: Wizardry OVA. Furthermore, many of the things that can make magic interesting work with engineering and physical prowess. I was going to say something about imsims, but then I remembered the gravity gun, and that's just telekinesis as technology. It's almost as if the real appeal of magic is to make quicker combat, or to appeal to casuals. (Easier to justify going nova and whatnot. Something, something creatively bankrupt.)
Taking Wizardry 1 for example:
* The most boring thing you can do in battle is to have the first three characters attack and the other three parry (because you can't attack from the back).
* However, with magic, you at least have the choice of what power level you want to use.
* Also, magic is much more versatile. If you exclude damage (which I consider the most boring effect), then with physical attacks you have no options. Meanwhile, with magic you can put enemies to sleep, boosts your stats, and even heal party members. (Modern technology can do some of these, but you don't see those with medieval-era weaponry.)

For the CRPG I'm making, I may intentionally de-emphasize what I;m calling "traditional weapon". They'll be an option, but I'll make it reasonable to just use magic or modern/futuristic weapons all the time. (Or just breathe fire like a dragon.)
Post edited September 25, 2023 by dtgreene