It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
lordhoff: It would have had to be unlocked for Jack to get in. No one would expect it to be unlocked so it would pass unnoticed.
I think that it was mentioned somewhere that it was locked on the Dane and later. Also why would Jack need to journey to Turkey just to get inside the box when he could use some blood to make it look at if is was opened on the Dane?

The Kwai Jen may have well been the ones who killed the crew with Jack killing one of the squids that later washed up on shore but not before the Kwai Jin got the key.
Sadly, the squid like creature was washed upon the shore of the east coast of the USA, otherwise I would have thought there was a fight between it and Jack on the Dane.
I agree with wesp5 that there is absolutely no reason to assume that caine was ever in the sacophargus.

In the final scene we see Jack with the mummy. It makes no sense to assume that an ancient king (completely dead) and an ancient vampire are both in the same object. There is nothing special about the sacophargus (unless you are interested in assyrian history). Jack and the driver used it as a tool to cause some chaos among some people who are obsessed with their stuggle for power.
The sea monster washes up on Rhode Island, home state of weird fiction writer H.P. Lovecraft. It is an easter egg for horror fans.
avatar
Sufyan: The sea monster washes up on Rhode Island, home state of weird fiction writer H.P. Lovecraft. It is an easter egg for horror fans.
"Some short of gelatinous, goo monster"... Damn that moment was both awkward and epic!!!
avatar
wesp5: As for Jack in the box, no. Remember the key and how it works? Why should there be a way to unlock and lock the box from the inside? This is a sarcophagus we are talking about...
The cargo box itself where the sarcophagus was in looks like it was torn from the inside. I assume this is the reason why the main character says what he says.
Honestly, I don't think Jack would have gone that far just to make it look like that to add more mystery. I also don't believe he hacked the computer, as it requires some skills which, I don't believe, he has.
The reason why I think he was in it is because it's the easiest way to get on the ship. Moreover, if we believe that the log wasn't edited, the disappearances started long before the ship arrived to LA.

avatar
duchU: Telling Beckett could ruin the whole plan so I don't think Beckett was tipped by Jack.
Well, the idea is, if there was something to study, Beckett would have stayed in the city, despite the danger, but it's like he suddenly understood that there's nothing but politics. Why he didn't tell you? I assume he didn't want to get involved. He got what he wanted.
This is just my opinion, but all in all, this scene wasn't really explained anywhere.
Post edited June 22, 2016 by Carnage
avatar
Carnage: Honestly, I don't think Jack would have gone that far just to make it look like that to add more mystery. I also don't believe he hacked the computer, as it requires some skills which, I don't believe, he has.
Jack wasn't alone in this. There is the Cabbie and also the guy who sends the mysterious emails! At least the last one looks like the type who would hack a computer to add some more speculation...

The reason why I think he was in it is because it's the easiest way to get on the ship.
Just imagine the alternatives for a moment:

1) Jack flies to Turkey and enters the sarcophagus which has some kind of mechanism to open it from inside which he couldn't know about as Johansen said it hadn't been opened. The sarcophagus is shipped on the Dane and Jack is lying inside for weeks, occasionally popping out to kill some crew member, which would imply there is a way to open the container from the inside too. During those weeks he is completely out of the game and the LA Anarchs should notice that he is away for a long time. Then near LA he breaks the container from the inside, takes Messerach out, get's C4 delivered from the Cabbie or someone else on time, puts it inside, closes the box and leaves.

2) Jack has Johansen arrange the delivery of the sarcophagus and waits until the Dane is near LA. Then he and the Cabbie and maybe someone else enter the ship, kill the crew, break the container from the inside, open the sarcophagus, take Messerach out, put the C4 in, close the box, change the log and leave. The LA Anarchs are aware that Jack might have been gone for a day or so but that's just normal.

I don't know about you, but if I were Jack, I would prefer the second alternative :)! Nobody would suspect anything, even the Anarchs, I wouldn't waste any precious time doing stupid stuff and it would be much easier overall too.
Post edited June 22, 2016 by wesp5
avatar
wesp5: Jack flies to Turkey and enters the sarcophagus which has some kind of mechanism to open it from inside which he couldn't know about as Johansen said it hadn't been opened. The sarcophagus is shipped on the Dane and Jack is lying inside for weeks, occasionally popping out to kill some crew member, which would imply there is a way to open the container from the inside too. During those weeks he is completely out of the game and the LA Anarchs should notice that he is away for a long time. Then near LA he breaks the container from the inside, takes Messerach out, get's C4 delivered from the Cabbie or someone else on time, puts it inside, closes the box and leaves.
No point lying there for weeks. He could've entered the sarcophagus and taking C4 with him shortly before the package was taken to the ship. The whole trip took ~10 days, so he had to hide somewhere during daytime.
Jack has Johansen arrange the delivery of the sarcophagus and waits until the Dane is near LA. Then he and the Cabbie and maybe someone else enter the ship, kill the crew, break the container from the inside, open the sarcophagus, take Messerach out, put the C4 in, close the box, change the log and leave. The LA Anarchs are aware that Jack might have been gone for a day or so but that's just normal.
It sound easier because you want to make it easier, but first they had to find a boat and capture the ship somehow. One sight on an unknown boat and crew could've send a SOS message, ruining the whole plan.

Not to say that in this case Jack wouldn't know where Elizabeth Dane is currently located. He would have to search it first, and attack it somewhere very far from LA, but this would require some time on the water, and he can't do anything during daytime. Tell me how it's easier than lying in the box and drinking red juice?
avatar
Carnage: No point lying there for weeks. He could've entered the sarcophagus and taking C4 with him shortly before the package was taken to the ship. The whole trip took ~10 days, so he had to hide somewhere during daytime.
Okay, I didn't know how long it took so I was guessing wrong. Still Jack would have needed to go to Turkey, find the Dane, find the sarcophagus, organize some C4, get Messerach out and put the C4 inside the sarcophagus and then wait inside the container. At least the last part would make more sense than lying inside the sarcophagus itself, but still there are a lot of variables to work out and everything done in a foreign city, not his home turf, and without leaving any witnesses!

It sound easier because you want to make it easier, but first they had to find a boat and capture the ship somehow. One sight on an unknown boat and crew could've send a SOS message, ruining the whole plan.
In the game a small dingy is good enough to reach the Dane and this is what they could have used. Even the police didn't seem to have noticed it and other witnesses are not important once the ship is boarded! You are right about locating the Dane though, but that too would be easier from LA where Jack could have connections with people knowing about ship routes and stuff. Which just gave me some idea for a prequel mission :)....
Post edited June 22, 2016 by wesp5
Ok, so it was like this:

- Caine (cab driver) sends a letter to the archeologist where he can find the sacophargus. He knows that there is nothing related to vampires inside, just an old mummy. The professor finds it and the key and sends them to LA. (Question: An archeologist from norway finds an artifact in turkey. Why does he send it to LA?

- Caine spreads the rumor that there is an ancient vampire in the sacophargus.

- Jack works together with caine. Jack gets explosives, takes a small boat when the ship is near LA, enters the ship, kills the crew and opens the sacophargus. He takes the mummy out and put the explosives in. He prepares everything so it looks as if the sacophargus has been opened from the inside. Then he leaves the ship with the mummy and the key.

- Jack makes sure that the key falls into the hand of the kuei jin. He is an anarch and likes chaos. This way he makes sure that the camarilla and the kuei jin will fight each other and the winner will be killed by the bomb. This way the anarchs weaken both enemies.

- Only Caine and Jack know the plan. A conspiracy works better when few people are involves. Caine wants to see how people react when they see the chance to get something that can make them super powerful. Jack likes to cause chaos.

some other questions:
- In the opening scene, all camarilla and anarch vampires meet in the theatre. Is it normal that members from both sects meet without attacking each other? Why should the anarchs care when the prince announces a meeting? (exept to attack it, like the sabbath do)
So the first scene is there so that all importend people know that: Aha, this is the new vampire in town and (s)he works for the prince?

- You can play the game in one piece and you never see your char resting. But if I understand the story correctly, the whole story takes several days, maybe even weeks.
Should we assume that whenever the char starts a new mission of the main quest, (S)he goes home and starts the job at the beginning of the next night?
PS: I have never been in LA (or america at all). I have no idea how long it takes to get from one end to the next with a car.
avatar
Mad3: Ok, so it was like this:
You wrote a nice summary of what I think has happened. About why Johansen was chosen we will need to explain that in the Prequel.

- In the opening scene, all camarilla and anarch vampires meet in the theatre. Is it normal that members from both sects meet without attacking each other? Why should the anarchs care when the prince announces a meeting?
I don't know much about the PnP WoD world, but if I remember correctly the Anarchs had been weakened in LA by fighting with the Kuei-Jin, so the Camarilla moved in and the Anarchs are not strong enough to challenge them.

- You can play the game in one piece and you never see your char resting. But if I understand the story correctly, the whole story takes several days, maybe even weeks.
In my opinion the game takes part in only two days as it is never shown that you rest, but you do rest after the Griffith Park events so Troika could have added more if they wanted.
avatar
lordhoff: It would have had to be unlocked for Jack to get in. No one would expect it to be unlocked so it would pass unnoticed.
avatar
wesp5: I think that it was mentioned somewhere that it was locked on the Dane and later. Also why would Jack need to journey to Turkey just to get inside the box when he could use some blood to make it look at if is was opened on the Dane?

The Kwai Jen may have well been the ones who killed the crew with Jack killing one of the squids that later washed up on shore but not before the Kwai Jin got the key.
avatar
wesp5: Sadly, the squid like creature was washed upon the shore of the east coast of the USA, otherwise I would have thought there was a fight between it and Jack on the Dane.
Because the shortest route from the eastern Med to LA is through the Panama Canal and Rome and NYC are on the same longitude line and the currents would drive the carcass NW. The key was stolen in Turkey according to Johannsson presumably by Jack or the second cabbie but then somehow managed to get into the kwai Jin's hands. "I love it when a plan comes together" (Col whoever from the "A-Team" to eye rolling of the rest of the team).

The real question is, when did the C-4 get in there? The Kwai had both coffin and key - of course they looked! It most likely went in after the Giovanni mission (or the Kwai chuckled and left in in there but then, they'd have to be working with Jack) and would want the Prince to get the key. More likely they didn't want the word out that there was no anti in there - no power from that. That is a real mystery that, while all of the above has been hashed over for years, I do not recall a timing discussion.
Post edited June 23, 2016 by lordhoff
avatar
wesp5: Okay, I didn't know how long it took so I was guessing wrong. Still Jack would have needed to go to Turkey, find the Dane, find the sarcophagus, organize some C4, get Messerach out and put the C4 inside the sarcophagus and then wait inside the container. At least the last part would make more sense than lying inside the sarcophagus itself, but still there are a lot of variables to work out and everything done in a foreign city, not his home turf, and without leaving any witnesses!
The only variable I see is if the package was for some reason delivered via plane, but this applies to both theory. The other variable, however, is if the package was accidentally misplaced and not delivered on Elizabeth Dane - speaks against your theory. Imagine if after everything Jack found out that the package was not there.

There is a plenty of room in the sarcophagus. Enough to contain a package of C4, the mummy, Jack, a laptop, some blood and a pillow.

The only thing that requires risk is sneaking in a port warehouse in Turkey (shouldn't be a problem, considering he's a master of the Celerity discipline). Of course, he could be lying there before if was delivered to warehouse.
In the game a small dingy is good enough to reach the Dane and this is what they could have used. Even the police didn't seem to have noticed it and other witnesses are not important once the ship is boarded! You are right about locating the Dane though, but that too would be easier from LA where Jack could have connections with people knowing about ship routes and stuff. Which just gave me some idea for a prequel mission :)....
I think it's obvious that Dane was towed close to LA, from the place where it was discovered, and it may not be the place where it was attacked. It could've been moved after the crew was killed. Attacking ship so close to the shore is risky, not to say that crew members could send a radio signal.

The only thing he could've done on that small boat in an open sea is kill himself. He would definitively need something more serious for that mission, but that's not the main problem, since that kind of journey can take many hours, and vampires fear the sunlight. Smells more like suicide to be honest.

New ideas are always good, but I hope this has nothing to do with what we're talking about, considering that both theories are just theories.
avatar
lordhoff: Because the shortest route from the eastern Med to LA is through the Panama Canal and Rome and NYC are on the same longitude line and the currents would drive the carcass NW.
Hm, if that is true maybe we could use it in the prequel. The original idea was to have a boss fight with a Kuei-JIn on the Dane but then geography got in the way ;).

The key was stolen in Turkey according to Johannsson presumably by Jack or the second cabbie but then somehow managed to get into the kwai Jin's hands.
I think a cop on the Dane says that the package with the key was shipped and is only now missing. Jack could somehow play it into the Kuei-JIn hands himself...

avatar
Carnage: There is a plenty of room in the sarcophagus. Enough to contain a package of C4, the mummy, Jack, a laptop, some blood and a pillow.
I don't remember the final view into the sarcophagus exactly but I don't think there was place enough. If your theory is to be true, I like it much better that Jack just lived inside the container and not the sarcophagus itself. This would also get rid ot the huge plot hole of the sarcophagus being openable from within and Jack knowing about this!

I think it's obvious that Dane was towed close to LA, from the place where it was discovered, and it may not be the place where it was attacked.
The newscaster says: "Our top story tonight: a derelict ship found floating ten miles off the Los Angeles coast earlier this morning was towed into the port of Los Angeles a few hours ago." So I don't know how long a small dingy would need to cover 10 miles but then in the game the Dane isn't shown in the port either...

Attacking ship so close to the shore is risky, not to say that crew members could send a radio signal.
That shouldn't be a problem with Celerity or Obfuscate.
Post edited June 23, 2016 by wesp5
avatar
Carnage: I don't remember the final view into the sarcophagus exactly but I don't think there was place enough. If your theory is to be true, I like it much better that Jack just lived inside the container and not the sarcophagus itself. This would also get rid ot the huge plot hole of the sarcophagus being openable from within and Jack knowing about this!
It's actually big enough to contain like 5 bodies in it. Jack could probably even sit in there.

Cain lived for a couple of thousands of years. Pretty sure that he might have known about a location of specific sarcophagus that can be opened from inside. At least this seems logical to me for him telling something like this to Jack, but getting his hands dirty and helping Jack capture the ship is clearly not for him. So, it's not a plot hole.
The newscaster says: "Our top story tonight: a derelict ship found floating ten miles off the Los Angeles coast earlier this morning was towed into the port of Los Angeles a few hours ago." So I don't know how long a small dingy would need to cover 10 miles but then in the game the Dane isn't shown in the port either...
I didn't say that it was in the port, but considering that you can see it from the beach, it's clearly closer than 10 miles, which means it was moved closer (by police, I assume).

But obviously, 10 miles from the shore is too short for a pirate attack.
That shouldn't be a problem with Celerity or Obfuscate.
Unless Jack can turn himself into a Malkavian or Nosferatu (there is absolutely no indication that there was someone else in the conspiracy, aside from those two), or turn his boat into a vamp-boat to make it use Celerity to move faster in order not to be seen by the ship's crew, I don't see how this can help.
I think we hear in the game that the key has been stolen from the ship.
I have to get a cargo list and I say a box is missing. I think this means it was on the ship in turkey, but now it is missing.

Assuming Jack was in the container with the sacophargus is more plausible then assuming Jack was inside the sacophargus. This way there is no need to open the sacophargus from the inside. It should be possible for Jack to get to turkey, get inside the container (with C4, some blood and a computer).
But the best explanation is, that he came to the ship with a boat from LA. The problem with the Jack-In-The-Box scenario is not how to get on the ship, but how to get off the ship. Nobody mentions that a lifeboat from the ship is missing. Its hard to swim 10 miles in the ocean when you carry a mummy and a key.

The insane thoery. (most likely false, but I like it)
Jack entered the container in turkey, put the explosives in the sacophargus and killed the crew in the middle of the ocean. Then he jumped from bord and walked home on the bottom of the sea with the mummy and the key. The sunlight does not reach those depths, so he can walk all the time. On his way he has to fight some sea monsters, one of them gets washed on the shore.

I do not think that the kuei jin were ever on the ship. Jack or caine gave them the key somehow. They do not open it in the giovanni mansion, because Ming Xiao has the key in the temple and those agents wanted to bring the sacophargus there. When you chose to work for Ming Xiao in the end, you can see that they trow the sacophargus into the ocean. I have no idea if kuei jin can extract energy from an ancient vampire to become more powerful. Most likely they have no use for an ancient vampire, so they trow it into the ocean to prevent the vampires from using it. They do not open it, because if there is a vampire inside, he might come out and attack them.

Do we hear the news that the ship has been moved to the harbor before or after we go there? The ship is not in the harbor when we go there. But his tuna joke was not very funny, so we should not believe everything he says.