It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
Ultima seriesUltimas VIII and IX(26 posts)(26 posts)
(26 posts)
Pages:
1
2
This is my favourite topic
Posted September 24, 2012
Ok, here is the beef I have against IX. 8 was terrible, but had an awesome ending and cliffhanger. Basically, you killed the pagan gods on the world the Guardian banished you too, stole their power to become the Titan of Ether and enter a black gate to return home only to see Britannia in devastation and a looming mountain size carving of the Guardian looming over the land. Then IX happened.

At first, all was good. Ok you start out in your home on Earth, no biggie, I can suspend my belief as it just a tutorial to get you used to the controls. Then the beginning cutsceen happens, complete awesome sauce. Then the decent into madness begins.

You, destroyer of the Modain trinity, the Avatar of Virtue, Titan of Ether, are dumber than a stoned surf boarder. The gypsy you talk to in order to foresee your destiny and determine your starting gear and stats even says “Your knowledge of the land shall be great” but you bumble around asking people what’s a paladin (when one of your best friends and companions, who was a paladin, only sacrificed himself in the Avatars place to save the world in UVII), have no clue where anything is and is completely clueless about even his own past.

Besides all the bugs and plot holes this was probably the most annoying thing about the game. They threw out everything that was Ultima and threw in a last minute ending to finish the series, completely ignoring everything you have done in the last eight games and ruining what could have been a great story and final showdown with the Guardian.

I so want someone to acquire the Utima license and remake VIII and IX the way they should have been…. One day…. One day. =P
Post edited September 24, 2012 by Strydent
Posted September 24, 2012
avatar
Strydent: Ok, here is the beef I have against IX. 8 was terrible, but had an awesome ending and cliffhanger. Basically, you killed the pagan gods on the world the Guardian banished you too, stole their power to become the Titan of Ether and enter a black gate to return home only to see Britannia in devastation and a looming mountain size carving of the Guardian looming over the land. Then IX happened.

At first, all was good. Ok you start out in your home on Earth, no biggie, I can suspend my belief as it just a tutorial to get you used to the controls. Then the beginning cutsceen happens, complete awesome sauce. Then the decent into madness begins.

You, destroyer of the Modain trinity, the Avatar of Virtue, Titan of Ether, are dumber than a stoned surf boarder. The gypsy you talk to in order to foresee your destiny and determine your starting gear and stats even says “Your knowledge of the land shall be great” but you bumble around asking people what’s a paladin (when one of your best friends and companions, who was a paladin, only sacrificed himself in the Avatars place to save the world in UVII), have no clue where anything is and is completely clueless about even his own past.

Besides all the bugs and plot holes this was probably the most annoying thing about the game. They threw out everything that was Ultima and threw in a last minute ending to finish the series, completely ignoring everything you have done in the last eight games and ruining what could have been a great story and final showdown with the Guardian.

I so want someone to acquire the Utima license and remake VIII and IX the way they should have been…. One day…. One day. =P
Actually, no.
The ending of Ultima VIII was not on Britannia but on the Guardian's homeworld. The original plan for the final trilogy was to have a game set in Britannia, one set in a world the Guardian conquered on his way to Britannia and then the final in his home where the final confrontation would take place. The story we got for IX is a result of fan backlash that had Garriott retconning the ending of the 8th game and setting the 9th back in Britannia.

The entire third paragraph seems to be taken directly from Spoony's rant rather than something you observed yourself. As has been stated several places, those questions didn't need to be asked by players to complete the game. They were there for players who were new to the series and needed the background info. About the only thing you had to track down that you shouldn't were the mantras, and I've heard rumors that you could actually use the mantras without finding them in the game so, maybe not even that.

I do agree that it's be nice to have the last two games remade with fan ideas about how the story should've gone. I think the original trilogy plan should be the base for it though so that we could get something at least close to the original vision. That would be a bit difficult without RG's help though.
Posted September 24, 2012
> The ending of Ultima VIII was not on Britannia but on the Guardian's homeworld.

That's true, but the original plan called for an "Ultima 8 part II" on his homeworld similar to the structure of U7's BG/SI, rather than for Ultima 9 to be set there.
Posted September 24, 2012
When I played U8 it sure seemed like it was supposed to be Britannia. The only thing I heard about U8's ending years later was an expansion that never made it entitled "The lost Vale" but I assumed it was somewhere on Britannia.

2nd, I never heard of Spoony or saw any of his/her posts. It was just so annoying that everything you were, all the wisdom and power you acquired throughout the last eight games was tossed out and replaces by a bumbling fool, that it stuck with me. It was the biggest WTF moment in my gaming history.

I can understand repeating some things that a new player might not have seen or experienced from previous games, but they did it completely wrong. They turned the Avatar into a drooling idiot for the entire game. I mean come on, "What's a Paladin?" Even if UIX was your first Ultima game, if you were playing an RPG at the time of UIX release, i'm pretty sure you knew what the fudge a Paladin was. ESPECIALLY if you had played the previous Ultima games, that one line was a giant kick in the groin given the reason in my previous post.

I could forgive them for U8 as the ending of that game got me all excited about UIX, but what it ended up being was a complete waste.
Posted September 24, 2012
avatar
Garran: That's true, but the original plan called for an "Ultima 8 part II" on his homeworld similar to the structure of U7's BG/SI, rather than for Ultima 9 to be set there.
Interesting, that's the first I've ever heard of that. I know about the Lost Vale expansion that was mastered right before it was canceled but that was still set on Pagan.

avatar
Strydent: 2nd, I never heard of Spoony or saw any of his/her posts.

Even if UIX was your first Ultima game, if you were playing an RPG at the time of UIX release, i'm pretty sure you knew what the fudge a Paladin was. ESPECIALLY if you had played the previous Ultima games, that one line was a giant kick in the groin given the reason in my previous post.

I could forgive them for U8 as the ending of that game got me all excited about UIX, but what it ended up being was a complete waste.
That's impressive. You literally have the two biggest, and over-repeated, quotes from his videos as your two biggest problems with the game. I'm willing to believe you for the simple fact that I have no reason not to, it's just that it really seemed like it was taken from the reviews.

I agree that pretty much anyone who played RPGs at that time and since would know what a Paladin is. Unfortunately the developers couldn't make that assumption. You have to aim for the lowest common denominator and in this case that's an RPG newbie.

I agree that 9 wasn't all that it probably could've and should've been. It should've gotten extra time in polishing and testing but unfortunately that's not how it went.
Posted September 24, 2012
> Interesting, that's the first I've ever heard of that. I know about the Lost Vale expansion
> that was mastered right before it was canceled but that was still set on Pagan.

The Lost Vale was an expansion to U8 (equivalent to The Forge of Virtue), but separate from the planned U8 part 2 (equivalent to The Serpent Isle); both were cancelled and the ending of U8 retconned.
Posted September 25, 2012
avatar
Garran: The Lost Vale was an expansion to U8 (equivalent to The Forge of Virtue), but separate from the planned U8 part 2 (equivalent to The Serpent Isle); both were cancelled and the ending of U8 retconned.
While the cancellation of the Lost Vale is well documented, I've never heard that Origin was working on a U8P2. Do you have any sources on this you can point us to? While it certainly sounds interesting I'm hesitant to believe it's more than just a rumor unless there's some kind of documented evidence.

The common wisdom has been that U9 (and not some intermediate game) was originally supposed to be on the Guardian's homeworld. This is reinforced by the fact that Pentology, the U8 hintbook, says that's where you end up. Origin sources have stated that developers were working on Crusader and U9 collaboratively, the Crusader engine being basically an enhanced form of U8's. It wasn't until the fan backlash that the ending was retconned to Britannia and the original U9 engine scrapped.

Pentology (find "Ultima 8 (pdf)" below, then goto p92):
http://www.pixsoriginadventures.co.uk/downloads/

Development History of U9 from Ultima Codex:
http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Development_History_of_Ultima_IX

Sources about U8/U9 from 1992-4 - all awesome reads, but none of which mention a U8P2:
1) http://membres.multimania.fr/mils/u8.txt
2) https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/%22richard$20garriott%22$20interview$20guardian/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games/I4MjSE-CyTw/rrRpiHtAccQJ
3) https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/%22richard$20garriott%22$20interview$20guardian/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure/FOSOe4PO0ak/x2gz_wqK6U4J
Posted September 25, 2012
avatar
mcmagi: 3) https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/%22richard$20garriott%22$20interview$20guardian/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure/FOSOe4PO0ak/x2gz_wqK6U4J
What the...? What's with the giant space in that last link? How did you even do that?

EDIT::
And somehow I got one in there too now...
A tab?
Post edited September 25, 2012 by VisElEchNon
Posted September 25, 2012
avatar
Garran: The Lost Vale was an expansion to U8 (equivalent to The Forge of Virtue), but separate from the planned U8 part 2 (equivalent to The Serpent Isle); both were cancelled and the ending of U8 retconned.
avatar
mcmagi: While the cancellation of the Lost Vale is well documented, I've never heard that Origin was working on a U8P2. Do you have any sources on this you can point us to? While it certainly sounds interesting I'm hesitant to believe it's more than just a rumor unless there's some kind of documented evidence.

The common wisdom has been that U9 (and not some intermediate game) was originally supposed to be on the Guardian's homeworld. This is reinforced by the fact that Pentology, the U8 hintbook, says that's where you end up. Origin sources have stated that developers were working on Crusader and U9 collaboratively, the Crusader engine being basically an enhanced form of U8's. It wasn't until the fan backlash that the ending was retconned to Britannia and the original U9 engine scrapped.

Pentology (find "Ultima 8 (pdf)" below, then goto p92):
http://www.pixsoriginadventures.co.uk/downloads/

Development History of U9 from Ultima Codex:
http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Development_History_of_Ultima_IX

Sources about U8/U9 from 1992-4 - all awesome reads, but none of which mention a U8P2:
1) http://membres.multimania.fr/mils/u8.txt
2) https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/%22richard$20garriott%22$20interview$20guardian/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games/I4MjSE-CyTw/rrRpiHtAccQJ
3) https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/%22richard$20garriott%22$20interview$20guardian/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure/FOSOe4PO0ak/x2gz_wqK6U4J
Thanks for the links. Thought these quotes was interesting:
While your magic still works there, you find out that the beings there
are much more powerful than you are, so you'll have to aquire their
kind of power to be able to take on the Guardian in Ultima IX.
That could have been really cool.
There is the possibility that there will
be Ultima Underworld style (3-D) dungeons in Ultima X.
Typo or were they actually thinking 3 games out at that point?
At this time, the cardinal Ultima was described to be on the verge of its alpha stage, with the world map approximately 80% complete—albeit in need of fine-tuning—and many fundamental game systems, such as conversations, inventory, and combat, either in place or in the process of implementation.
Man, too bad all that work was lost. I'd imagine that if it was released, the mod community would step up and finish it.
Post edited September 25, 2012 by ncarty97
Posted September 26, 2012
avatar
ncarty97: Thanks for the links. Thought these quotes was interesting:
While your magic still works there, you find out that the beings there
are much more powerful than you are, so you'll have to aquire their
kind of power to be able to take on the Guardian in Ultima IX.
avatar
ncarty97: That could have been really cool.
It was actually part of U8, though it's not very well defined and only hinted at, presumably because a lot of the game's contents were cut. But the Zealan Gods do tell you of "your destiny" and of a fifth element, ether. (Also the plot docs for the Lost Vale suggest that the expansion would have elaborated on what this actually meant.) At the end of U8, you absorb the powers of each of the four titans into a blackrock fragment, then empower yourself with their powers using the obelisk tip. At that moment you allegedly became the Titan of Ether and you would have explored those powers in U9. All of that was ignored in the U9 we ultimately received.

There is the possibility that there will
be Ultima Underworld style (3-D) dungeons in Ultima X.
avatar
ncarty97: Typo or were they actually thinking 3 games out at that point?
No typo. The second interview link says they were looking at 3D and virtual reality devices for U10. Since U9 was postponed thanks to UO, they ended up putting the 3D technology in U9.

Here's another interview from 92 that talks about the VR stuff that was planned for U10, and also a multi-player U8 (no joke!):

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/%22richard$20garriott%22$20interview$20guardian/comp.sys.amiga.games/1dcbwsginO8/O0ARdXCPR_MJ
Posted October 05, 2012
A thought just occurred to me. Mind you, I'm not here to make excuses for poor storytelling or broken promises, but if I think about it, it does kinda make me chuckle at the (presumably) unintentional foreshadowing.

The Pentology book explicitly says that you end up in the Guardian's homeworld at the end of VIII. In IX, the next chronological game in the series, you wake up in your bed in your home on Earth. During the course of IX, you discover that the Guardian is...

[SPOILER WARNING, just in case; scroll down 25 lines to read the rest]

25
24
23
22
21
20
19
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1

...yourself, after a fashion; the darker aspects of your soul that you cast off when you assumed the mantle of Avatarhood, lo these many years ago. When you look at this through the proper lens, it does become a very subtle, if meta, clue as to the Guardian's true nature.

In other words, in an amusing sense, Origin kinda did keep true to the premise of IX opening with you on the Guardian's home turf. In a manner of speaking. ;^)
Post edited October 05, 2012 by TheKid965
Pages:
1
2
This is my favourite topic
Community
Ultima seriesUltimas VIII and IX(26 posts)(26 posts)
(26 posts)