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The Witcher 2Kayran boss fight = awful design (no spoilers)(78 posts)(78 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 19, 2011
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dfgd: The tentacles take turns, the mid tentacles wont catch traps, but as long as you are positioned near the actual tentacles you need to catch, they will come down next.

At the rock throwing part it took me a couple of tries to figure out that you have to go to the left (broken bridge) and start running.
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Kalfear: Left facing mob right?

Ive gone there, I got squashed!
I hid behind a portion of the bridge, I got squashed!
Yep, left facing mob.

You can use the portion of the bridge as cover if you stand in the right position.
The rocks will stop coming when you reach the left end of the bridge portion, so just time the run for when the rock hits the cover or if you can, when the rock is in the air.

Also, I guess I'm wrong about the taking turns on tentacles. it seems its more about position, it just hit me with the trappable tentacle twice in a row though, so it doesn't seem too bad.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by dfgd
Posted May 19, 2011
I can understand where you're coming from, and I need to say that I partly agree with you.

I believe CDP is repeating the same mistake with TW2 than with TW1, insofar as they drop people in front of some boss fights, with little to no in-game pointers as to how to proceed.

It took me a good while to figure out that ONLY the 2 left most and 2 right most tentacles (all of which have that glowing "bulb" at mid length) could be trapped, not the 2 middle ones. This explains why I got repeatedly slapped by those things, wondering if :

- my Yrden sign wasn't powerful enough to catch the tentacles, and I perhaps needed to enhance my magic first ?
- there were certain spots on the battlefield that I needed to stand at (the yellow signs), before casting my sign ?
- I had missed anything else of the obvious kind ?

As soon as that I understood the above, the whole fight become trivial, requiring, as you correctly guessed it, no skill at all. The taunts of the sorceress ("Use your Yrden sign" x 20 during the battle) really didn't help either, making me wish there had been an option to feed her to the beast before achieving it ^.^

Don't get me wrong : I enjoy challenging boss, and that often comes with some frustration, but reloads should remain a punishment because the player made a mistake, not a mean to convey tactical information (weaknesses, etc.) to a player on how to slay a beast. This information should be granted beforehand, if the player cares to look for it.

Finally, I would like to confirm that you can skip all the cutscenes that run before the fight. That was the bare minimum for me to endure the frustration of the multiple reloads.
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Vitor121796: Failing a QTE shoudl not make me restart the boss fight - just the QTE.

Also, it's so, so badly signposted. After the initial section, I had no idea what to do or where to go and rolling wasn't enough to dodge the rocks.

No skill involved at all, Very, very frustrated right now,
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Kalfear: Agree, barring a major break through my game is done now at the first chapter and im feeling awfully cheated and ripped off to be honest!

I been trying for last 3 hours (on easy) to get past this thing and have no clue what im suppose to do after i kill 3 tenticales (if I can even get that far)

There is no patern or logic to the fight, you just drop the sign and hope it catchs a tenticale, which is far from a for sure thing!

Ive dropped a trap, had the tentical come straight down on top of me and sign trap (almost killing me) and tenticale just lift up like nothing afterwards, totally ignoreing the sign!

On the rare occation I get past the the 3 tenticals I have no idea what im suppose to do and quickly get squashed by flying stones and crashing tenticales. (back to the F**** Gotcha development where you have to fail to learn the encounter rather then give people the right info up front, so bored of that already)

I mean at start you couldnt shut that stupid (and totally useless) Sorceress up and now shes quiet and giveing you no clue what your suppose to do!

I HATE HATE HATE walk throughs and cheats but its pretty clear this is 100% a reaction encounter and silly me thought I was playing a RPG, not some F******** twitch game.

Am I bitter? Damn rights im bitter, I am being forced to cheat to stand even a chance at beating this boss on easy and if I find out it is a full reflex based encounter, im pretty much screwed and out $50.00 for nothing!

Very disappointed and discouraged with the over all combat in The Witcher 2 and feel they should have put a warning that we were getting a adult game with teen ager styled combat and bosses.

Ive studied this boss and there is NO WAY to predict where hes going to come down, basically you just flip and run around throwing random Y signs till one sticks, then you go hack off a limb!

After 3 limbs I have no clue what im suppose to do!

Ive tried dodgeing but thats impossible appearently so if I even retry tommorrow ill try running at mob when he goes into full on rage!

If that doesnt work, unless CDProjekt comes out with a patch that lets me bypass the boss, think im done and they have lost a customer who WANTED BADLY to beleive in them as a replacement developer for the now ran EA Bioware.

Its sad, I have far more disposible money then your average 20 year old but no one wants my money!

Bioware making twitch based linear games with a backstory now so wont buy from them (single player)
Obsidian made that TERRIBLE Alpha Protocol that (from what I read) ALOT of people got stuck on the starting computer puzzle and Obsidian basically said "to bad, we have your money already so were done"
And now CDProjekt making adult games for 15 year olds!

Very disappointed

PS: Id very much like a "skip encounter" option because unlike the poster above me, I been at it to long and when (if) I finally finishing it, I will NOT look back fondly. Honestly, I think you just killed any chance of me replaying game as the fustration just not worth it!

GAMES ARE SUPPOSE TO BE FUN!
I know I dont have reflexes of a 15 year old anymore! I dont need crappy game design to reinforce that fact!
Post edited May 19, 2011 by nissa
Posted May 19, 2011
Reading this thread makes me feel like a genius, I found the Karyan to be extremely easy and I killed him on my 3rd attempt (which was the first attempt where I killed any tentacles). Hell, Sile even yells at you to use Yrden which basically solves most of the fight for you. I tried trapping the 2 center tentacles a few times before noticing the HUGE GLOWING ORANGE parts of the others and that made it pretty obvious. All you have to do at that point is place 3-4 Yrden traps and do an easy QTE event. I really fail to see why so many people have issues with QTE, its not even like they're difficult (and I have the "Difficult QTEs" enabled).

Sounds more like some people are bad at video games.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by slophlong
Posted May 19, 2011
You most probably were just lucky placing your traps at the right spots, it is really all ^.^

Let's try to understand people's frustration when it's legitimate. Reducing their feedback to whining, or something like that, really doesn't help them to enjoy the game as much as we could.

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slophlong: Reading this thread makes me feel like a genius, I found the Karyan to be extremely easy and I killed him on my 3rd attempt (which was the first attempt where I killed any tentacles). Hell, Sile even yells at you to use Yrden which basically solves the fight for you. All you have to do at that point is place 3-4 Yrden traps and do an easy QTE event. I really fail to see why so many people have issues with QTE, its not even like they're difficult (and I have the "Difficult QTEs" enabled.
The battle takes no skill at all to win.

I would say it's just poorly introduced, in how to proceed to "win".

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slophlong: Sounds more like some people are bad at video games.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by nissa
Posted May 19, 2011
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nissa: It took me a good while to figure out that ONLY the 2 left most and 2 right most tentacles (all of which have that glowing "bulb" at mid length) could be trapped, not the 2 middle ones.
Personally, I didn't even try to trap the middle ones.
When we visited the site with Triss, she spoke about the mutated red tissue, so I saw the red blubs and connected the dots.

There's also a book seller in the nonhuman district. He has a book on kayran, which should contain some hints, too.
I only bought the two on nekkers and endregas, though, the kayran book was kind of expensive.
Posted May 19, 2011
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nissa: You most probably were just lucky placing your traps at the right spots, it is really all ^.^

Let's try to understand people's frustration when it's legitimate. Feedback about them whining or something really doesn't help them to enjoy the game as much as we could.

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slophlong: Reading this thread makes me feel like a genius, I found the Karyan to be extremely easy and I killed him on my 3rd attempt (which was the first attempt where I killed any tentacles). Hell, Sile even yells at you to use Yrden which basically solves the fight for you. All you have to do at that point is place 3-4 Yrden traps and do an easy QTE event. I really fail to see why so many people have issues with QTE, its not even like they're difficult (and I have the "Difficult QTEs" enabled.

Sounds more like some people are bad at video games.
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nissa:
There's no "luck" to it, it was pretty easy (for me at least) to see how far out the orange growths were and to place my traps accordingly. After the QTE event the camera focuses on the collapsing bridge which makes what you have to do next pretty obvious. The bridge conveniently creates a ramp which you can roll up to dodge the boulders before ending the fight.

I just think that Kalfear is either trolling or completely overreacting, I can't see how anyone could sit at this boss for 3 hours unless they were new to gaming. He claims that he's losing because the encounter is "twitch based" yet at the same time it seems as if he's struggling to understand the fight at all.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by slophlong
Posted May 19, 2011
Point taken about Triss. I guess I should have paid more attention to her.

I am no bookworm (or alchemist), so I didn't feel the need to visit them.

I still think it's bad game design.

Clues for such powerful (and potentially frustrating) opponents (because they could kill you in one or two hits) should be made extremely obvious.

Compare it to soldiers/commandos on a real battlefield : they wouldn't rush out to face deadly opponents without being briefed and prepared, without double-checking their needed equipment and making sure they understood what needs to be done.

Of course, there is always the unforeseeable, but that is another story ^.^

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nissa: It took me a good while to figure out that ONLY the 2 left most and 2 right most tentacles (all of which have that glowing "bulb" at mid length) could be trapped, not the 2 middle ones.
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hvis: Personally, I didn't even try to trap the middle ones.
When we visited the site with Triss, she spoke about the mutated red tissue, so I saw the red blubs and connected the dots.

There's also a book seller in the nonhuman district. He has a book on kayran, which should contain some hints, too.
I only bought the two on nekkers and endregas, though, the kayran book was kind of expensive.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by nissa
Posted May 19, 2011
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Kalfear: Obsidian made that TERRIBLE Alpha Protocol that (from what I read) ALOT of people got stuck on the starting computer puzzle and Obsidian basically said "to bad, we have your money already so were done"
We pause for a message by our sponsors:

Alpha protocol is an extremely well written game with repetitive and too easy gameplay. The hacking minigame is a tad difficult, but there are actually in-game mechanisms to skip it.

If you are into stories, and not completely averse to somewhat shooterish gameplay it is well worth the money.

Now back to TW2:

[not affiliated with Obsidian or GOG, of course. Just kidding.]
Post edited May 19, 2011 by K_Murx
Posted May 19, 2011
I agree about the bridge collapsing, that one was a GOOD design/hint/clue.

About the orange bulbs, I guess I should blame myself for that, since Hvis just made me notice that Triss gives clues enough about which tentacles to trap. To my discharge, it was getting pretty late when I reached the beast. I just wanted to kill it!

Lesson learned, don't pick fights with big baddies before heading off to bed ^.^

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nissa: You most probably were just lucky placing your traps at the right spots, it is really all ^.^

Let's try to understand people's frustration when it's legitimate. Feedback about them whining or something really doesn't help them to enjoy the game as much as we could.
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slophlong: There's no "luck" to it, it was pretty easy (for me at least) to see how far out the orange growths were and to place my traps accordingly. After the QTE event the camera focuses on the collapsing bridge which makes what you have to do next pretty obvious. The bridge conveniently creates a ramp which you can roll up to dodge the boulders before ending the fight.

I just think that Kalfear is either trolling or completely overreacting, I can't see how anyone could sit at this boss for 3 hours unless they were new to gaming. He claims that he's losing because the encounter is "twitch based" yet at the same time it seems as if he's struggling to understand the fight at all.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by nissa
Posted May 19, 2011
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nissa: Point taken about Triss.

I still think it's bad game design.

Clues for such powerful (and potentially frustrating) opponents (because they could kill you in one or two hits) should be made extremely obvious.

Compare it to soldiers/commandos on a real battlefield : they wouldn't rush out to face deadly opponents without being briefed and prepared, without double-checking their needed equipment and making sure they understood what needs to be done.

Of course, there is always the unforeseeable, but that is another story ^.^

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hvis: Personally, I didn't even try to trap the middle ones.
When we visited the site with Triss, she spoke about the mutated red tissue, so I saw the red blubs and connected the dots.

There's also a book seller in the nonhuman district. He has a book on kayran, which should contain some hints, too.
I only bought the two on nekkers and endregas, though, the kayran book was kind of expensive.
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nissa:
A fully voiced cutscene, a sorceress bitching at you, books, and a glowing orange growth isn't obvious enough? What, is the camera supposed to zoom in on them while Geralt conveniently begins talking to himself about them? Games aren't meant to be breezed through (at least they weren't in the past, nowadays people get extremely upset after dying a single time in a game), you're meant to learn from your mistakes and adapt to the situation.

You're giving an example about commados and soldiers wanting to be prepared for a battle while at the same time saying that the game should hold your hand through the entire fight.
Posted May 19, 2011
The game already attempts to give the clue during the fight (EDIT : which could be assimilated to "handholding").

The sorceress keeps blabbering about a part of the clue (using the Yrden sign, to trap them), in a rather obnoxious way, I need to say.

Why not additionally focus the camera on one of the bulbs at the beginning of the battle ?

Maybe the cutscene even gives that clue, I admit I didn't 100% pay attention to it.

Fact is, the battle can be won without Triss, without the book sellers, without the special trap, without the special potion. I did it like so. It requires no skills at all, once you know how to proceed, honest.


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nissa: Point taken about Triss.

I still think it's bad game design.

Clues for such powerful (and potentially frustrating) opponents (because they could kill you in one or two hits) should be made extremely obvious.

Compare it to soldiers/commandos on a real battlefield : they wouldn't rush out to face deadly opponents without being briefed and prepared, without double-checking their needed equipment and making sure they understood what needs to be done.

Of course, there is always the unforeseeable, but that is another story ^.^
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slophlong: A fully voiced cutscene, a sorceress bitching at you, books, and a glowing orange growth isn't obvious enough? What, is the camera supposed to zoom in on them while Geralt conveniently begins talking to himself about them? Games aren't meant to be breezed through (at least they weren't in the past, nowadays people get extremely upset after dying a single time in a game), you're meant to learn from your mistakes and adapt to the situation.

You're giving an example about commados and soldiers wanting to be prepared for a battle while at the same time saying that the game should hold your hand through the entire fight.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by nissa
Posted May 19, 2011
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nissa: Fact is, the battle can be won without Triss, without the book sellers, without the special trap, without the special potion. It requires no skills at all, once you know how to proceed, honest.
That's good, right? You listen to Triss, or you buy the book, or you just try to work it out yourself, if you didn't do either.
I think it's a good move on the part of developers to include this small "research" element. Geralt is a witcher, not a soldier, he works alone and is supposed to work with the monster lore.

Not to say that I breezed though the whole thing, though, the end with the fallen bridge was completely non-obvious to me, so I had to repeat the whole fight about 4 times.
Posted May 19, 2011
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nissa: Fact is, the battle can be won without Triss, without the book sellers, without the special trap, without the special potion. It requires no skills at all, once you know how to proceed, honest.
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hvis: That's good, right? You listen to Triss, or you buy the book, or you just try to work it out yourself, if you didn't do either.
I think it's a good move on the part of developers to include this small "research" element. Geralt is a witcher, not a soldier, he works alone and is supposed to work with the monster lore.

Not to say that I breezed though the whole thing, though, the end with the fallen bridge was completely non-obvious to me, so I had to repeat the whole fight about 4 times.
People need to keep in mind that this is an RPG, you're not meant to skip every line of speech and you have a quest log for a reason.
Posted May 19, 2011
My game has ended at this fight, eight times I tried and I'm not going to keep going in the hope that I fluke it. Maybe if I find a way to cheat past it I'll carry on, I dislike cheating but I also dislike dying not because of difficulty but because of piss poor design. Games should be entertaining, not an exercise in anger management. Something the devs should think about, if you release this on consoles without fixing the glaring balance issues then within days the stores will be full of pre-owned copies. If a number of the PC crowd are frustrated with the combat I shudder to think what console crowd will make of it.
Posted May 19, 2011
Yes, it is good.

More alternatives (choices) are always good for me.

Actually, a good game design (in my opinion) for the Kayran battle would have been :

- give enough clues during (or just before) the battle for "rushers" (or "distracted"/sleepy players, like me ^.^) to figure out how to proceed, but suffer at it (it takes longer to win, more running around, more tentacles to trap, etc.)
- give even more clues to players who proceed methodically, planning ahead, rewarding them with special ways to proceed, netting them a shorter/easier fight, and/or extra rewards or something

I don't agree with people that otherwise complain about the "difficulty" of the game. For example, I found the battle in the monastery courtyard, against those knights (6 or 7 of them), intense, fun and VERY rewarding. The game gave me tools enough to achieve what I needed to do, and had made it crystal clear to me beforehand (during the tutorial) on how to use them.

I can understand however that for some players the Kayran boss battle would be a mix of not enough (clues, some of which remain unnecessarily obscure) and too much (completely guided-through fight, making it a trivial but rather boring fight, since there is no alternative than to follow the "script").

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nissa: Fact is, the battle can be won without Triss, without the book sellers, without the special trap, without the special potion. It requires no skills at all, once you know how to proceed, honest.
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hvis: That's good, right? You listen to Triss, or you buy the book, or you just try to work it out yourself, if you didn't do either.
I think it's a good move on the part of developers to include this small "research" element. Geralt is a witcher, not a soldier, he works alone and is supposed to work with the monster lore.

Not to say that I breezed though the whole thing, though, the end with the fallen bridge was completely non-obvious to me, so I had to repeat the whole fight about 4 times.
Post edited May 19, 2011 by nissa
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The Witcher 2Kayran boss fight = awful design (no spoilers)(78 posts)(78 posts)
(78 posts)