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The Witcher 2Even Obama plays The Witcher 2(79 posts)(79 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 29, 2011
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GODzillaGSPB: Never heard of this before. Any sources?
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SlackerSupreme: It's a controversy over the protagonist in each series, namely Geralt of Rivia and Elric of Melnibone'. Both are more than strikingly similar: both are albino, used drugs to supplement their physical/magical strength, were sorcerer/swordsmen, and, most damning, Elric was known as the White Wolf when the series was published back in the last sixties/seventies.

From what I've read of Sapkowski's works, though, to his credit, the stories and settings are completely different, although both were/are considered antiheroes. It might be that his series has had limited exposure outside of it's native Poland, or that M. Moorcock has little interest in pursuing a lawsuit (he's called the Witcher a "passing off" of his character, but that's about it).
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Jamanticus: You do know that The Last Wish and Blood of Elves have both been published in English, right?
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SlackerSupreme: I was aware they were published in "other languages" and suspected english was one of them. I'd like to read the novels, certainly.
I have read both series, Moorcok and Sapkowski and they can't be more different than they are.

Elric is for a lack of a better word a prick, he is sick and needs potions to be functional, he is not a great swordman, he is very thin and has crimson eyes. He also is a prince and a tragic heroe. He worships Arioch god of chaos and he becomes his agent in further adventures, his prowess with fencing comes from a black magical sword call Stormbringer which is always thristy for blood and which has cost him many friends before. Elric is also one of the many faces or representations of one heroe in the Multiverse created by Moorcock, this same heroe can represent order or chaos depending the needs of balance, sometimes is called Erekose, sometimes Dorian, etc.

Now Geralt he is an albino, by experimentation, not by birth as Elric, he is strong and fast (Elric is not) and is an acomplished swordman, he uses potions to make him deadlier than he already is and can use any weapon and most of his are pretty common, he is pretty good with women, (Elric is not) likes to drink, game and do other common things, he is a witcher a monster exterminator for hire (Elric is a prince who never had to do hard work in his life), and sometimes uses magic signs as tools for his work (Elric is a consumated sorcerer).

Every time a hero in a fantasy setting appears and is an albino it is going to be compared to Moorcocks Elric, he was the first, he is pretty famous and Moorcock always writes beautiful, giving his characters a tragic, shakesperean setting and a sense of inevitability.

I dont see how anyone could confuse the two of them.

Hope this helps.
Post edited May 29, 2011 by Kirth-Gersen
Posted May 29, 2011
Onion News > FOX news :D
Posted May 29, 2011
I am more than familar with Elric, but thanks ;). This wasn't a comparison because both are albino, although that's one trait they have in common (somewhat; it could be argued Geralt is not a true albino). They do have a lot of traits that differ, likely personality, as Elric was indeed much more evil. The traits they do have in common, however, and, as I said, most damning of all, the nickname, "White Wolf", makes it evident Sapkowski borrowed from Moorcock's protagonist. He took that and some other traits he liked and created his own character with them.

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SlackerSupreme: It's a controversy over the protagonist in each series, namely Geralt of Rivia and Elric of Melnibone'. Both are more than strikingly similar: both are albino, used drugs to supplement their physical/magical strength, were sorcerer/swordsmen, and, most damning, Elric was known as the White Wolf when the series was published back in the last sixties/seventies.

From what I've read of Sapkowski's works, though, to his credit, the stories and settings are completely different, although both were/are considered antiheroes. It might be that his series has had limited exposure outside of it's native Poland, or that M. Moorcock has little interest in pursuing a lawsuit (he's called the Witcher a "passing off" of his character, but that's about it).


I was aware they were published in "other languages" and suspected english was one of them. I'd like to read the novels, certainly.
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Kirth-Gersen: I have read both series, Moorcok and Sapkowski and they can't be more different than they are.

Elric is for a lack of a better word a prick, he is sick and needs potions to be functional, he is not a great swordman, he is very thin and has crimson eyes. He also is a prince and a tragic heroe. He worships Arioch god of chaos and he becomes his agent in further adventures, his prowess with fencing comes from a black magical sword call Stormbringer which is always thristy for blood and which has cost him many friends before. Elric is also one of the many faces or representations of one heroe in the Multiverse created by Moorcock, this same heroe can represent order or chaos depending the needs of balance, sometimes is called Erekose, sometimes Dorian, etc.

Now Geralt he is an albino, by experimentation, not by birth as Elric, he is strong and fast (Elric is not) and is an acomplished swordman, he uses potions to make him deadlier than he already is and can use any weapon and most of his are pretty common, he is pretty good with women, (Elric is not) likes to drink, game and do other common things, he is a witcher a monster exterminator for hire (Elric is a prince who never had to do hard work in his life), and sometimes uses magic signs as tools for his work (Elric is a consumated sorcerer).

Every time a hero in a fantasy setting appears and is an albino it is going to be compared to Moorcocks Elric, he was the first, he is pretty famous and Moorcock always writes beautiful, giving his characters a tragic, shakesperean setting and a sense of inevitability.

I dont see how anyone could confuse the two of them.

Hope this helps.
Post edited May 29, 2011 by SlackerSupreme
Posted May 29, 2011
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SlackerSupreme: I am more than familar with Elric, but thanks ;). This wasn't a comparison because both are albino, although that's one trait they have in common (somewhat; it could be argued Geralt is not a true albino). They do have a lot of traits that differ, likely personality, as Elric was indeed much more evil. The traits they do have in common, however, and, as I said, most damning of all, the nickname, "White Wolf", makes it evident Sapkowski borrowed from Moorcock's protagonist. He took that and some other traits he liked and created his own character with them.

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Kirth-Gersen: I have read both series, Moorcok and Sapkowski and they can't be more different than they are.

Elric is for a lack of a better word a prick, he is sick and needs potions to be functional, he is not a great swordman, he is very thin and has crimson eyes. He also is a prince and a tragic heroe. He worships Arioch god of chaos and he becomes his agent in further adventures, his prowess with fencing comes from a black magical sword call Stormbringer which is always thristy for blood and which has cost him many friends before. Elric is also one of the many faces or representations of one heroe in the Multiverse created by Moorcock, this same heroe can represent order or chaos depending the needs of balance, sometimes is called Erekose, sometimes Dorian, etc.

Now Geralt he is an albino, by experimentation, not by birth as Elric, he is strong and fast (Elric is not) and is an acomplished swordman, he uses potions to make him deadlier than he already is and can use any weapon and most of his are pretty common, he is pretty good with women, (Elric is not) likes to drink, game and do other common things, he is a witcher a monster exterminator for hire (Elric is a prince who never had to do hard work in his life), and sometimes uses magic signs as tools for his work (Elric is a consumated sorcerer).

Every time a hero in a fantasy setting appears and is an albino it is going to be compared to Moorcocks Elric, he was the first, he is pretty famous and Moorcock always writes beautiful, giving his characters a tragic, shakesperean setting and a sense of inevitability.

I dont see how anyone could confuse the two of them.

Hope this helps.
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SlackerSupreme:
I still think that if you take out the "white wolf" similarity, you could say the same of Elminster, Dumbledore, Gandalf and Merlin.
Posted May 29, 2011
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SlackerSupreme: It's a controversy over the protagonist in each series, namely Geralt of Rivia and Elric of Melnibone'. Both are more than strikingly similar: both are albino, used drugs to supplement their physical/magical strength, were sorcerer/swordsmen, and, most damning, Elric was known as the White Wolf when the series was published back in the last sixties/seventies.

From what I've read of Sapkowski's works, though, to his credit, the stories and settings are completely different, although both were/are considered antiheroes. It might be that his series has had limited exposure outside of it's native Poland, or that M. Moorcock has little interest in pursuing a lawsuit (he's called the Witcher a "passing off" of his character, but that's about it).


I was aware they were published in "other languages" and suspected english was one of them. I'd like to read the novels, certainly.
avatar
Kirth-Gersen: I have read both series, Moorcok and Sapkowski and they can't be more different than they are.

Elric is for a lack of a better word a prick, he is sick and needs potions to be functional, he is not a great swordman, he is very thin and has crimson eyes. He also is a prince and a tragic heroe. He worships Arioch god of chaos and he becomes his agent in further adventures, his prowess with fencing comes from a black magical sword call Stormbringer which is always thristy for blood and which has cost him many friends before. Elric is also one of the many faces or representations of one heroe in the Multiverse created by Moorcock, this same heroe can represent order or chaos depending the needs of balance, sometimes is called Erekose, sometimes Dorian, etc.

Now Geralt he is an albino, by experimentation, not by birth as Elric, he is strong and fast (Elric is not) and is an acomplished swordman, he uses potions to make him deadlier than he already is and can use any weapon and most of his are pretty common, he is pretty good with women, (Elric is not) likes to drink, game and do other common things, he is a witcher a monster exterminator for hire (Elric is a prince who never had to do hard work in his life), and sometimes uses magic signs as tools for his work (Elric is a consumated sorcerer).

Every time a hero in a fantasy setting appears and is an albino it is going to be compared to Moorcocks Elric, he was the first, he is pretty famous and Moorcock always writes beautiful, giving his characters a tragic, shakesperean setting and a sense of inevitability.

I dont see how anyone could confuse the two of them.

Hope this helps.
I agree with most of what you posted but I believe Elric was a great swordsman. Before he possessed Stormbringer, he gained his needed strength from the many drugs he concocted. He was okay as long as he had something maintaining his strength.

I really wish someone would make a proper game from the works of Michael Moorcock. I would highly recommend reading some of his books, especially the ones involving Elric, Hawkmoon, and Corum.

The nickname I have used from the early BBS days has been Arioch, and when that one isn't available, I use Mabelrode, another Lord of Chaos from the world of Moorcock's creation.
Posted May 29, 2011
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SlackerSupreme: I am more than familar with Elric, but thanks ;). This wasn't a comparison because both are albino, although that's one trait they have in common (somewhat; it could be argued Geralt is not a true albino). They do have a lot of traits that differ, likely personality, as Elric was indeed much more evil. The traits they do have in common, however, and, as I said, most damning of all, the nickname, "White Wolf", makes it evident Sapkowski borrowed from Moorcock's protagonist. He took that and some other traits he liked and created his own character with them.
I'm not familiar with Elric, but it seems to me that that sort of similarity could be a coincidence rather than actual plagiarism. I could see Sapkowski coming up with the idea for Geralt as a witcher from the wolf school and him also having unnaturally white hair, and therefore coming up with "White Wolf" without the input of the Elric series. Obviously I have no idea, and I don't know Sapkowski's creative process or his familiarity with English fantasy authors.
Posted May 30, 2011
No story is ever truly original. Any idea how many famous authors ripped off Romeo and Juliet? How many ripped off the Odyssey? How many ripped off, or directly re-used characters created by others? Culture always builds on the work of others (though you could argue that 20th century copyright law is putting a stop to that, but that's another discussion entirely).

About the name "White Wolf", it appears in many other places. It was the name of a big RPG publisher in the '90s. In Warhammer (another setting about order and Chaos, by the way (though mostly Chaos)), it's the name of a warrior god associated with wolves and winter.

Classics get reused. Successful memes spread. Some things are more derivative than others, but true originality is extremely rare.
Posted May 30, 2011
The US President Obama and the Polish President share the same taste.
Attachments:
obama_witcher2.jpg (81 Kb)
Post edited May 30, 2011 by mippoh
Posted June 01, 2011
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evmiller: Great! Maybe we'll get the others translated into English now. Be a little messed up to get Obama hooked on The Witcher, then leave him hanging after only Blood of Elves.
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MikeP999: Whereas Presidents of days gone by would take a day of fishing, golfing etc, or spend time at a retreat, modern day President's will play video games? I think not. That would be very embarrassing for his reputation, considering video games do not exactly contribute to a healthy lifestyle. It's a hobby yes, but as you and I know, playing 2 hour or 4+ hour sessions in front of a monitor is not exactly the ideal candidate for a health advertisement ;)
Re-read my post. I was talking about the books.
Posted June 04, 2011
Guys, I don't know about this "knock off" from Moorcock. For me it's just coincidence. First time I've read The Witcher Saga long time ago, and I've started reading it again. Actually I am reading it quite often these days. It really has great story, characters, and superb amount of humor. Personally, I've never read anything better, maybe Black Company from Glen Cook. You should really try them both, If you haven't - but I doubt it.
But It's not about what great fan of Witcher I am, just... In Poland, the first witcher story was published in 1986. The first book about Elric, IN POLAND, was published in 1994. And from what I know, only the chosen could read his story earlier. I don't want to protect Sapkowski, but from what I've read etc. Only the looks of characters seems similar. Ok, actually they are similar. But Geralt is completely different character in almost every manner. He's a monster hunter for hire, always tries to stay on the neutral ground. It may not seem it that way in the stories, but in the Saga he's like John McClane in fantasy - He don't want to change the world, but nobody else will do this. If he could he would just pass it over. But no, for him it's personal.
It really hurt when you listen that something you read during your childhood is called rip off. These are harsh words. Mister Moorcock, maybe someone had just the similar idea of creating looks of the main character? Maybe Sapkowski is more suprised than I am?
I really can't tell. But you haven't read the books I guess. You would know how different these both characters are.
Post edited June 04, 2011 by ATeciak
Posted June 04, 2011
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ATeciak: Guys, I don't know about this "knock off" from Moorcock. For me it's just coincidence. First time I've read The Witcher Saga long time ago, and I'm starting reading it again. Actually I am reading it quite often these days. It really has great story, characters, and superb amount of humor. Personally, I've never read anything better, maybe Black Company from Glen Cook. You should really try them both, If you haven't - but I doubt it.
Maybe you should try Song of Ice and Fire then :D
Posted February 03, 2012
Even if he wanted, Sapkowski couldn't possibly rip the Erlic character, as those books were not published in Poland. And The Witcher came out in 1986, when no foreign book was allowed in Poland, as we the country was still ruled by the communist party.
Posted February 03, 2012
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buggeer: Even if he wanted, Sapkowski couldn't possibly rip the Erlic character, as those books were not published in Poland. And The Witcher came out in 1986, when no foreign book was allowed in Poland, as we the country was still ruled by the communist party.
Authors have ways of getting around book import restrictions and language barriers, and Sapkowski was already remarkably well read in English-language fiction, so the idea that it would have been impossible for Sapkowski to know of Moorcock's character really does not obtain.

But "White Wolf" is so generic that no author can claim it as his character and call all others plagiarists.
Post edited February 03, 2012 by cjrgreen
Posted February 03, 2012
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cjrgreen: Authors have ways of getting around book import restrictions and language barriers, and Sapkowski was already remarkably well read in English-language fiction, so the idea that it would have been impossible for Sapkowski to know of Moorcock's character really does not obtain.

But "White Wolf" is so generic that no author can claim it as his character and call all others plagiarists.
We are talking about Poland between 1972 and 1986. It was a time, when you could get beaten half to death by cops just because they didn't like your face. It was a time when people died because the army ordered the tanks to drive over them.

Poland was literally in the state of war (as declared by the government).

There really was no way for someone to get a book that was just released after the 2nd world war unless one wanted to risk their property and live. I doubt some fantasy novel would be considered worth it.
Posted February 04, 2012
In so many ways, these characters are different, that talking about plagiarism is ridiculous. The nickname White Wolf is really a trifle, if you think about the complexity of the characters. This is typical of clinging on to the junk.

Many nicknames is repeated in a world where the characters are associated with something. We have thousands of different Wolves, Hawks, Lions, Devils, Lightning, Littles, Shaggys, Whites, Reds and Cats... And more... more... and more different Super-Guys.

Sorry for my English (Google Translator)
Post edited February 04, 2012 by nocny
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The Witcher 2Even Obama plays The Witcher 2(79 posts)(79 posts)
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