Baloney.

Things have value, not because of scarcity, but because somebody invested time, money, effort, supplies, etc. into making them into something useful.

You are reasonably and morally required to pay for such things, because that is how the people who made them for you earn their living. It is what makes it worthwhile for them to make them, and if you do not pay for them, you will not get them anymore, because nobody will make them for nothing, or make them so that thieves may profit from them.

If you don't want more games, music, art, etc., just keep on pirating them.

So if something is infinitely reproducible then you can infinitely divide up the cost of someone's time per unit produced, until it costs nothing. It's a systemic problem, not a moral one.

So you're saying that piracy has a positive effect on developers/publishers income?

Although no one has (can) worked out the numbers. it would be a safe bet that it causes a loss and not profit.

I won't go into anything long-winded, because I feel I could not articulate it better than someone here. I am a firm believer that piracy is indeed stealing, and there are so many counter examples to anything you can bring up regarding piracy that they really have no standing point. So many podcasts, shows, articles, etc. have done analysis on this and in the end the cons of piracy cannot so easily be brushed off by looking at it from a personal standpoint.

I have noted that you are not here to have conversation you are here to say how things are while countering other points of view by taking words out of context rather than addressing their actual content... either way you are entitled to your own opinion and your own moral stand point and since it is not effecting me as a person or my life I have no intention of countering it.

I see you are interested in the application of the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law and again, it is something we have a difference of opinion in regards to and I have no desire of arguing, given the style of the conversation you propose, especially not through this kind of medium.

We have a difference of opinion that cannot be resolved and we both believe the other one is wrong, so let's agree to disagree... Have a nice day sir I have no desire spending any more time discussing abstract concepts with someone who is interested in keeping their feet in concrete... (pun intended).

Stealing someone's work is just bad, there's no gray line pure and simple. If you are not sure about buying a game, consult the ranking websites and even uploaded gameplay videos. Better yet try the demo first before buying or wait for the discounted game of the year edition surely everything will be included like the dlcs and other stuff.

It's not. I have no idea where vindik8or got that idea from. O.o Here in Australia, you go to a restaurant and you order a dish. If the food is not to your liking WITHIN REASON (i.e. the food is not cooked properly, they brought you the wrong dish), you are entitled to ask them to take the food back and fix it. (And I think that's the case anywhere in the world.)

If you eat it all, then decide that it wasn't worth the price, tough luck. You still have to pay for it! However, you're now well within your rights to decide never to go back to that restaurant again, based on your past experience.

This is going to be a very interesting issue in the years to come. Have you heard about 3D printers? (If you haven't, watch this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboxMsSz5Aw) They are printers that can scan an item like, say, a chair, and the printer can then reproduce that item using a special combination of powder and gels. You could then infinitely produce that same chair if you so wanted to. It may not be suitable for all items, because the powder/gel combo won't be as strong as traditional manufacturing for things like, say, cars, but technology WILL eventually reach a point where it can replicate complex objects with no loss in quality.

Can you imagine the upheaval this would cause in the world's employment? About half (if not more) of the world's manufacturing sector would vanish overnight. All it takes it for one person to scan in the design for the latest iPhone and leak it to the Net, and Apple would instantly lose nearly all of its paying customers. Art objects would have no more inherent value; why pay millions of dollars for Michaelangelo's David when a 3D printer can reproduce the exact same statue, and nobody in the world can tell the difference unless they have access to carbon dating?

Yes, consumers will be spoilt for choice and things will become insanely cheap (as long as you can afford one of these 3D printers), but the flip side is that you're going to find it very, VERY hard to find a job, because in a world with easily reproducible goods, very few things will have high value anymore.

Trouble is, the video game industry has released very little hard data on the exact figures relating to piracy. While I very much doubt that piracy has a POSITIVE effect on income streams, I also believe that the losses these companies claim due to piracy is also grossly exaggerated. Again, my stance on the issue is that I believe the vast majority of pirates are people who would never have paid for the item anyway. If they couldn't pirate the game, they'd just move on to the next game which CAN be pirated. There will be some losses from people who would have paid for a pirated game if they couldn't get it for free, but this is a relatively small percentage, and the money that companies are currently spending on DRM to try to get these people to pay up would be better spent on positive outreach trying to get people to willingly buy the game in the first place.

Piracy will never be completely stamped out; I accept that, and more people should too. The solution going forward is to try to change people's mindsets so they are more willing to do the right thing, which we'll definitely need to do if 3D printing takes off, because the only thing that will save the economy then is to convince people to pay more than they really need to, because it's the right thing to do.

EDIT: This is also reply 111 to the original topic. XD

In the real world, products have finite markets: you can only sell so many in a certain time, before they become obsolete. If you are to remain in business, you must recover all your costs plus something of a profit, from the finite number of sales you expect.

So the idea that you can divide up the value of your time into an infinity of sales is a non-starter.

Does anyone remember those p2p clients called TV and radio where music and films were just chucked out in the air for free for anyone with the proper hardware to just pick it up?

Free radio and TV are every bit as free as Google :) They are paid for by advertising; and the more people who tune in, the more the broadcasters get paid.

The fact that you do not pay directly out of your pocket does not make it free.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm just saying that it's disingenuous to separate the positive effects of piracy from the negative because there are plenty of both. Besides, I've heard of these elusive pirates who would otherwise be paying customers if not for the ubiquity and ease of piracy--doesn't it seem like these are the people who would pay after pirating the game? If there are enough of them to justify actively fighting piracy, it's safe to assume that they factor in to sales after the fact. People who would otherwise be law-abiding citizens don't suddenly start going "mine mine mine" and refusing to pay for things they like when they download a torrent, and I like to think that they balance out those who would never pay.

Have to admit, I didn't word that very well, but can't really think of a better way to word it at the moment. Hopefully what I'm trying to say is clear enough.

No, you said that paying the tab was irrelevant. I took that to mean that whether you experience food poisoning or not has no impact on whether or not you pay the bill, and without that as a factor, paying would be a given.

Both torrents and sites like megaupload have legitimate, completely legal uses, though. More the latter than the former, admittedly, but the simple fact is that shutting down those services would be the equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We'd basically be taking technology a step back, punishing those who use those services for legitimate reasons, and pirates would adapt anyway and render the entire thing an exercise in futility.

I seem to remember this issue being in the news, actually. Some politicians want the power to shut down websites they deem as being devoted to distributing copyrighted content. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Tell me a game, with solid proof that Piracy has had a positive effect on a developer/publisher.

Because, there is proof***** that

1. few Indie developers have stopped supporting or making games

2. few developers/publishers have stopped supporting or making games

3. a number of Indie developers have stopped supporting/making PC games (because of the******** Piracy), as making the game took X money but sales didn't even make X money.

4. a number of developers/publishers have stopped supporting/making PC games (because of the******** Piracy), as making the game took X money but sales didn't even make X money.

5. Pirated copy users complaining/forcing/white-mailing developers to FIX issues (noting that they will buy it when the devs do, which they NEVER do)

6. Pirated copy users reporting bugs found on cracked versions of the game to the developers, there by developer wasting time check those issues

7. Pirated copy users backlashing developers because of DRM's, because without DRM's the game will be 100% sure to be copied (blame the pirated copy users in the first place for this, the developers haven't turned back now..because its so easy to use a pirated copy. Not to mention Namco Bandai SUED CDPR because CDPR removed DRM, thou in good intentions but now it SUPER EASY to PIRATE the game)

8. Publisher backlashing developer for removing DRM, because of STEP 7 (mentioned above)_..because Pirated copy users forced Namco Bandai to hold that STANCE that DRM is needed.

9. Pirated copies sometimes don't work well, again causing users to complain to the developers/publishers and on user forums that the game sucks. False complains...

10. Pirated copies sometimes have trojans or viruses, which infect..leading to degradation of performance in OTHER LEGIT games. False complains again...

11. Ignorant players who appreciate the game but playing pirated copies, also causes bad peer reviews in the PR communication between legit users and developers/publishers. Causing Developers/publishers to only take on comments made by the people who buy'ed their games but didn't communicate back properly...making future games SUCKY.... Admit lamers,that you played Dragon Age 1 only from pirated copies. (Bioware did mention that their games took flags if either the user skipped dialogs or made x progress in the game, I won't be surprised if Bioware later mentions that for DA2 development they took statistics tracked from their games from the user profiles).

----------

Now with all these, I shall humble repeat(tho excessive): Tell me with proof, the positive effect of Piracy..

There's no proof of anything on either side. Don't forget that we're all arguing hypothetical scenarios and personal opinions rather than quantifiable facts.

I'm not even going to respond to most of those first points because you're completely ignoring every other factor in existence and apparently attributing everything bad that's ever happened to anyone in games to piracy, which is a totally reasonable and rational thing to do. No, really.

Can you name a single game that has managed to avoid being pirated because of the DRM? The DRM has nothing to do with the pirates because no pirate ever sees it. Never ever ever. Were you here on May 17th? The pirates were playing the game before our DRM-free GOG versions were even cleared to download the missing chunk.

Except that pirated copies almost always play better than the actual versions, which you would know if you weren't just making things up.

Anyone who gets a virus from downloading a game needs to wear a helmet when walking around in day-to-day life because it takes a special brand of obliviousness to walk into that trap. Believe it or not, the pirates are a makeshift community of sorts, and they look out for each other when it comes to that kind of thing.

Your other points were either so inane or incomprehensible that I literally can't find the words to respond to them. I really don't mean to be rude, but most of that really was just incoherent rambling, completely oblivious to how piracy actually works.

@vindik8or... you are the example I referred to. God help us.