It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
*possible spoilers*

Every year or so, I get this itch that Planescape: Torment left me with after finishing it back in 2000. It goes something like this:

"I've read countless books in my life. P:T is a game that took all the best aspects of novels and made it so that I could actually be a part of the novel. I wish another game would come along with a new world, so I could experience that all over again, only new! Hey! I bet there are adventure games with good stories! I mean, what other fun could there possibly be to an adventure game? I should try an adventure game."

So this was the latest attempt to scratch.

With the brief help of a walkthrough (the infamous inflatable duck), I managed to ride the Latino railway to Arcadia. Unfortunately, any ambience or appeal I was sensing from the story flittered away when the up-until-then thinly-veiled undermessage of the game was revealed in all its naked splendor: the false dichotomy of science and *X*, where *X* in this case is "magic". Seriously? This is the great story I've read so much about before buying this game? The stereotyping of science as the cold, sterile doom of man? How it needs to be checked by the loving caress of a momma dragon? This is kid's play. Philosophy 101 students have better ideas, and they don't use fantasy archetypes to obfuscate their banality.

Granted, I didn't play any farther. Maybe it morphs into something fresh and interesting. But I'm trusting the writing on the wall, here.
Yeah, you should probably keep playing it because you got most of it wrong.
I've played the game like four times and never seen "stereotyping of science as the cold, sterile doom of man". Maybe some character called it that way, but certainly that wasn't the message of the game.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Unfortunately, any ambience or appeal I was sensing from the story flittered away when the up-until-then thinly-veiled undermessage of the game was revealed in all its naked splendor: the false dichotomy of science and *X*, where *X* in this case is "magic".
From an anthropological perspective - magic, religion and science can coexist in various forms within the same society.
When dealing with fiction - even in steampunk worlds - magic and science are often presented as rivaling forces, polar opposites.
In The Longest Journey this is NOT something to be argued about - it's pure canon, a premise upon which the worlds are built - they have been SPLIT and have their separate domains.

Now, the INTERPRETATION and a deeper, second meaning of all of this is not necessarily what YOU make out of it. Sure - it's pretty natural (though a bit short-sighted) to perceive anything even mildly related to issues we personally struggle with as significant and pivotal to the objective interpretation. In other words - if we're looking for something, we're probably going to find it, regardless of what we're looking at.
That's why you should be careful as hell when making such statements, since they can tell us a lot more about you than about the story itself ;).
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Seriously? This is the great story I've read so much about before buying this game?
No, it's not.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: The stereotyping of science as the cold, sterile doom of man? How it needs to be checked by the loving caress of a momma dragon?
Not only are you wrong here, you're also wildly bending the interpretation of everything you're learned until this point to fit into a simple pattern of repeating the same metaphorical meaning through different means OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
No, that's NOT the point. Go on and finish the damn game to understand how utterly wrong you were.

And stop focusing on the "science is evil" interpretation - NO ONE is making such broad claims.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: This is kid's play. Philosophy 101 students have better ideas, and they don't use fantasy archetypes to obfuscate their banality.
Now, of all the people, you had to refer to Philosophy students xD ?
And use them as an example of people with trivial ideas ?
What have I ever done to you ?
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Granted, I didn't play any farther.
It pleases me greatly that you openly admit ignorance.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Unfortunately, any ambience or appeal I was sensing from the story flittered away when the up-until-then thinly-veiled undermessage of the game was revealed in all its naked splendor: the false dichotomy of science and *X*, where *X* in this case is "magic".
avatar
Vestin: From an anthropological perspective - magic, religion and science can coexist in various forms within the same society.
When dealing with fiction - even in steampunk worlds - magic and science are often presented as rivaling forces, polar opposites.
In The Longest Journey this is NOT something to be argued about - it's pure canon, a premise upon which the worlds are built - they have been SPLIT and have their separate domains.

This presupposes that a world existed prior to the split in which "magic" and science coexisted. There's a major problem with this supposition. Any scientist worth his/her salt will tell you that if "magic" were real, it would necessarily be incorporated into "science". Science is just a method. If magical creatures started dancing around my cafe one night -- and these creatures were corroborated by others -- one must accept the possibility that such creatures exist. To deny that would be to go against the tenets of science. Hypotheses as to the nature of the creatures would be submitted, tested for validity, shared with the scientific community, et cetera. So, to suggest that a world might exist where "magic" and "science" coexist as "polar opposites" is asinine. Science and magic are polar opposites because the former deals with reality, and the latter with fantasy.

What this game was really driving at was that science/technology/machinery are bleeding the humanity out of humanity...i.e., "science as the cold, sterile doom of man." Orwell did it better, and there weren't any dancing creatures.

Now, the INTERPRETATION and a deeper, second meaning of all of this is not necessarily what YOU make out of it. Sure - it's pretty natural (though a bit short-sighted) to perceive anything even mildly related to issues we personally struggle with as significant and pivotal to the objective interpretation. In other words - if we're looking for something, we're probably going to find it, regardless of what we're looking at.
That's why you should be careful as hell when making such statements, since they can tell us a lot more about you than about the story itself ;).

I was being careful. You are probably correct in whatever information you decided to extrapolate about me from what I've said. This doesn't bother me. However, you are incorrect regarding "looking for something". I had no idea what the game was about before I started playing it. Having now seen the replies in this thread, I've gone to Wikipedia and read the plot synopsis there. Imagine my surprise to learn that the antagonists in the story (one of which was described as "Hitler-type") called Stark their home. And besides being the daughter of the dreamworld dragon, what is April (the protagonist!)? A scientist? Of course not. She's a bloody painter.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: This is kid's play. Philosophy 101 students have better ideas, and they don't use fantasy archetypes to obfuscate their banality.
avatar
Vestin: Now, of all the people, you had to refer to Philosophy students xD ?
And use them as an example of people with trivial ideas ?
What have I ever done to you ?

You misread me. I said that Philosophy 101 students have better ideas than the one that drives this game.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Granted, I didn't play any farther.
avatar
Vestin: It pleases me greatly that you openly admit ignorance.

Why shouldn't I? Disclaimers are an unavoidable side effect of honest living.

I note that the three of you that replied to this thread are all European. And, while I didn't play past the point I mentioned, I *did* play that far. And if none of you all felt that vibe in the early part of the game, I'm wondering if it isn't cultural prejudice on someone's part.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Any scientist worth his/her salt will tell you that if "magic" were real, it would necessarily be incorporated into "science". Science is just a method.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: So, to suggest that a world might exist where "magic" and "science" coexist as "polar opposites" is asinine.
Well, magic is basically the application of will to create effects. The scientific method has its uses but is not universal - you don't apply it to poetry for example and neither to meditation.
As for magical creatures, I think the most basic thing about them would be a local disregard for laws of nature that we otherwise consider all-encompassing. Although - sure - you could try to study how they work by themselves. The results may or may not form a coherent theory...
avatar
smolderingmuffin: If magical creatures started dancing around my cafe one night -- and these creatures were corroborated by others -- one must accept the possibility that such creatures exist.
If it were a one-time thing, science would gladly declare you all insane and proceed to administer treatment. Sure - you can tell them all you want that what you saw was real, but it would probably be labelled as mass hallucination, probably related to drug use or mass hypnosis.
Who you gonna call ? Ghostbusters ?
Science handles things that are constant or repeat themselves in more or less predictable patterns.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: What this game was really driving at (...)
And you can prove that this interpretation is the absolutely right one how...?
avatar
smolderingmuffin: I was being careful. You are probably correct in whatever information you decided to extrapolate about me from what I've said.
The sad thing is - I didn't want to :|.
Look... If you stick by this interpretation, you're simply not going to enjoy the game at all. Now - what would be the point in that ?
If I were to watch, say, "Back to the Future" only thinking "Time travel is IMPOSSIBLE, this movie makes no sense !" I would miss out on everything that is enjoyable about it. In short - don't treat it as a documentary. Give it another shot.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: This doesn't bother me. However, you are incorrect regarding "looking for something".
No, no, no - I didn't mean that you ran the game consciously thinking "I'm going to look for this and that". It's a hermetical thing - when we learn something new, we know something already and as such - apply that previous knowledge, sets of opinions etc. to what we discover. If a certain issue is important to you, you are going to notice it where others don't and see it as THE thing to look at if others do.
Sometimes it's an intellectual itch that you SHOULDN'T scratch - you'll only make it itch more.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Imagine my surprise to learn that the antagonists in the story (one of which was described as "Hitler-type") called Stark their home.
Yeah, I see where you're going with this - just because they are from Stark, ergo - Stark is evil, Arkadia is good and a goddamn utopia...
No. It's not that simple. There are a lot of problems in Arkadia, the people from there HATE their world and DREAM of the utopia where there would be progress and technology would serve their whims.
Can't you see how ironic this is ? April finds the other world fascinating because it is SOMETHING NEW. She soon finds out it is neither a safe nor ideal place.

Still - I REALLY suggest you try to play this from start to finish, even if you have spoiled the whole plot for yourself.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: And besides being the daughter of the dreamworld dragon, what is April (the protagonist!)? A scientist? Of course not. She's a bloody painter.
And how is that bad ? Why the hell should she be a scientist ? It would make her MORE GROUNDED IN HER WORLD.
Also - I find being an artist something to look up to.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: You misread me. I said that Philosophy 101 students have better ideas than the one that drives this game.
Yeah, I guess you meant people who've happened to take a course called "An Introduction to Philosophy" or something like that... I'm not an expert when it comes to the American education system.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: I note that the three of you that replied to this thread are all European. And, while I didn't play past the point I mentioned, I *did* play that far. And if none of you all felt that vibe in the early part of the game, I'm wondering if it isn't cultural prejudice on someone's part.
Oh, don't you dare make me a drop in the cultural ocean xP !
Even if you live a country where you have achieved "the perfect means without any ends", it doesn't mean you have to follow this mental path.
Think of the Japanese. They probably like their tech gizmos but as the Man's triumph over nature, not nature's over mankind.

And - I haven't said this enough - give the game another effing try. This time - trying to AVOID judging each world as better or worse than the other, merely seeing them as DIFFERENT.
Also - you might find it worthwhile to focus on the protagonist and how she deals with the world around her.
Generally - suspension of disbelief is your friend. Any attempt to bulldoze the fourth wall with probably leave you flustered again.
By the way, I'm sorry in advance about my inability to figure out this quote system.
Well, magic is basically the application of will to create effects. The scientific method has its uses but is not universal - you don't apply it to poetry for example and neither to meditation.
I wasn't aware I was talking about poetry or meditation -- both of which one would have a difficult time selling as "magic".
As for magical creatures, I think the most basic thing about them would be a local disregard for laws of nature that we otherwise consider all-encompassing. Although - sure - you could try to study how they work by themselves. The results may or may not form a coherent theory...
You have a basic misunderstanding of what "science" is, apparently. No scientist thinks any law of nature is all-encompassing. In fact, science can be seen as the "freedom to doubt", born as it was as a rebellion against the hard-and-fast truths of religion. At best, there are degrees of certainty. The degree of certainty against "magical creatures" is quite high. But that's not really what I'm driving at, here. More to come...
If it were a one-time thing, science would gladly declare you all insane and proceed to administer treatment. Sure - you can tell them all you want that what you saw was real, but it would probably be labelled as mass hallucination, probably related to drug use or mass hypnosis.
Who you gonna call ? Ghostbusters ?
Science handles things that are constant or repeat themselves in more or less predictable patterns.
Yes, the scientific community would want that. But as an individual -- as the scientist -- one would be remiss to discount evidence simply because it didn't fit into your worldview at the time.
And you can prove that this interpretation is the absolutely right one how...?
The same way you can "prove" your interpretation is the "right" one.
The sad thing is - I didn't want to :|.
Look... If you stick by this interpretation, you're simply not going to enjoy the game at all. Now - what would be the point in that ?
Read the title line of this thread again.
If I were to watch, say, "Back to the Future" only thinking "Time travel is IMPOSSIBLE, this movie makes no sense !" I would miss out on everything that is enjoyable about it. In short - don't treat it as a documentary. Give it another shot.
I have dozens of games that include magic, time travel, etc. -- all things that are currently "science fiction", and I enjoy them greatly. The issue is not the inclusion of such elements, but how they are presented.
No, no, no - I didn't mean that you ran the game consciously thinking "I'm going to look for this and that". It's a hermetical thing - when we learn something new, we know something already and as such - apply that previous knowledge, sets of opinions etc. to what we discover. If a certain issue is important to you, you are going to notice it where others don't and see it as THE thing to look at if others do.
An analogy can be drawn here to puerile humor. Say a joke makes someone else laugh, but not you. Why? Because you've heard it before (when you were 8 years old), and it was only barely funny then. Then the laughing party looks at you as though you have no sense of humor.
Yeah, I see where you're going with this - just because they are from Stark, ergo - Stark is evil, Arkadia is good and a goddamn utopia...
No. It's not that simple. There are a lot of problems in Arkadia, the people from there HATE their world and DREAM of the utopia where there would be progress and technology would serve their whims.
I'm sure there are problems in Arcadia. But the designers of the game are clearly biased, and have only a cursory knowledge of what "science" is.
Still - I REALLY suggest you try to play this from start to finish, even if you have spoiled the whole plot for yourself.
I may do that sometime. Truly.
And how is that bad ? Why the hell should she be a scientist ? It would make her MORE GROUNDED IN HER WORLD.
I'm not saying she should be. But she could have been anything...a teacher, a janitor, waitress (by profession), shoe salesman, clothing designer, carpenter, factory worker, nurse, librarian...any number of professions that might still be used to give her the air of "struggling college student" without pandering to one world or the other. When I said, "A scientist?", I was playing on the absurdity of the suggestion. She can't be a scientist, because scientists aren't good people in this story. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know. Is there a likeable character later in the story that can be seen, without stretching credibility, as a scientist? Further, she is an artist...and being so has no detectable bearing on the story. Had she been a carpenter, her meeting with Cortez in the art gallery would have gone exactly the same. Probably would have been even more believable and impactful. It's not like non-artists don't like art. :) Hell, even scientists like art sometimes.
Also - I find being an artist something to look up to.
I find being a good one is something to look up to.
Yeah, I guess you meant people who've happened to take a course called "An Introduction to Philosophy" or something like that... I'm not an expert when it comes to the American education system.
What I'm saying is that I've heard better treatments of philosophy (which is what this game is trying to be) from students of the earliest levels.
Oh, don't you dare make me a drop in the cultural ocean xP !
Even if you live a country where you have achieved "the perfect means without any ends", it doesn't mean you have to follow this mental path.
Think of the Japanese. They probably like their tech gizmos but as the Man's triumph over nature, not nature's over mankind.
I try not to think of the Japanese. They are the confluence of misogyny and superficial capitalism. I use "superficial" as a modifier, not as an emotional appeal. And you are. A drop in the cultural ocean, I mean. Squawl as either of us might, we're both products of our environments.
And - I haven't said this enough - give the game another effing try. This time - trying to AVOID judging each world as better or worse than the other, merely seeing them as DIFFERENT.
Why should I bother judging which is better or worse, when the game does it for me? :) But like I said, I may play it through anyway. Stranger things have happened than a pleasant surprise.

Have you played Planescape: Torment?
avatar
smolderingmuffin: I wasn't aware I was talking about poetry or meditation -- both of which one would have a difficult time selling as "magic".
No, no, no - those were different things. First was a definition of magic and the second was meant to show that sometimes we analyze using different methods.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: You have a basic misunderstanding of what "science" is, apparently.
Not really.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: No scientist thinks any law of nature is all-encompassing. In fact, science can be seen as the "freedom to doubt" (...)
You know, I'm in the doubting business myself, since I'm a philosopher.
What makes me happy, though, is the level of competence YOU present. Most people have a vague notion of science as if taken straight from the XIX century ;P.

Anyway - I know that local application of laws is certainly a worthwhile theory, though our local phenomena hardly give evidence either way...
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Yes, the scientific community would want that. But as an individual -- as the scientist -- one would be remiss to discount evidence simply because it didn't fit into your worldview at the time.
I once heard a peculiar theory of learning that claimed doubt causes discomfort which a person wants to get rid of as soon as possible and as such - will stick with the first theory he/she accepts until the world-image gets shattered SO BADLY that changes HAVE TO be made. I'm, of course, far from accepting such claims but you have to admit - it hits people hard, once they encounter something so uncanny that it doesn't have any place in "their world". The narrowed the a perspective a person has and the stronger the experience, the more trauma it's probably most likely to cause...
If you saw something "paranormal", wouldn't you, given some time, either claim you're not really sure what happened then or say that maybe you got confused and it's simply a dream you once had, or at the very least assume you were either very tired or intoxicated, or received a hypnotic suggestion from someone or...
There's a LOT of ways to disregard an experience we had, since our senses and memory aren't all that trustworthy - they can play tricks on us and it would be foolish to challenge our entire view of how the world works, based on a single abnormal occurrence.
Then again - some people might drill deep into this...
Yeah, this would be a good time to mention the movie "Contact" ;P.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: The same way you can "prove" your interpretation is the "right" one.
Ha - I'm not saying there IS a right interpretation. That's one of the most beautiful things about art, IMO ^^.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Read the title line of this thread again.
So there - if you still want to enjoy it - try a different approach.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: But the designers of the game are clearly biased, and have only a cursory knowledge of what "science" is.
Actually - science and scientists are as plentiful in this game as wizards and mages. That's something you're lead to believe "is there", in the background.
Still - I REALLY suggest you try to play this from start to finish, even if you have spoiled the whole plot for yourself.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: I may do that sometime. Truly.
If you do - please share your thoughts as you go along ^^. It's always fascinating to hear a fresh take on such things...
avatar
smolderingmuffin: If I'm wrong about this, please let me know. Is there a likeable character later in the story that can be seen, without stretching credibility, as a scientist?
Tell you what - we can discuss EVERY scientist you meet in this game in excruciating detail, once you get some first-person data on the subject :>. A thorough enough examination most certainly requires your direct attention and personal, empirical experience.
And I'm NOT going to further spoil you the game :x.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Further, she is an artist...and being so has no detectable bearing on the story.
Oh, yes it does, though in a subtle way... Again - we'll discuss this once you get further, since in the order of how the game progresses, you've only gone through character introduction and the general WTFAQ. In other words - the stage has just been set, but the play is only about to begin.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: I find being a good one is something to look up to.
I find being good at ANYTHING something to look up to (before you say that - even if something is wrong morally, its skilled performance can still be amazing).
Hell - that's the classical meaning of "virtue" - being good at something. So - the virtue of a gamer can be pwning n00bs ;P.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: What I'm saying is that I've heard better treatments of philosophy (which is what this game is trying to be) from students of the earliest levels.
Nah, I think you're stretching it. That's like assuming the Monkey Island series tries to faithfully depict corsairs ;).
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Squawl as either of us might, we're both products of our environments.
No, I'm not ;P. If I were, I'd fit here, at least on some basic level...
Sure - we can be limited by the things we encounter... but with the Internet we are free to direct ourselves as we please.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Why should I bother judging which is better or worse, when the game does it for me? :)
No it doesn't, damn you -_-" ! ;P
avatar
smolderingmuffin: Have you played Planescape: Torment?
Oh dear god... I've been asked to and I've tried some time ago but simply could BEAR the Polish translation, because I'd instinctively look at the phrases and instantly translate them back to English, with little doubt what the original meaning was and that it made more sense... So I REALLY didn't get far.
I've got it from GOG, sure. I certainly plan to get through it and FRAPS every last bit of my gameplay. As soon as I feel I'm "ready" for it.
So - no spoilers, PLEASE.
I assume that the version of PS:T you picked up from GOG.com is the English version? If I remember correctly, they only carry English versions. And yeah, you certainly have a more-than-adequate command of English...you shouldn't suffer through a translation.

It's been fun talking to you! I'll be sure to come back to this thread and post my findings, when/if I ever finish TLJ.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: I assume that the version of PS:T you picked up from GOG.com is the English version?
Of course - that's the main reason I joined GOG xD !
avatar
smolderingmuffin: And yeah, you certainly have a more-than-adequate command of English...you shouldn't suffer through a translation.
That's actually one of the greatest compliments I've heard in my life, thanks ^^'.
avatar
smolderingmuffin: It's been fun talking to you! I'll be sure to come back to this thread and post my findings, when/if I ever finish TLJ.
If you don't do so in one sitting, I encourage you to to share your thoughts between sessions - it's both easier to do and more enlightening, since it makes the possible shifts in your view look more gradual.

Peace.