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The Bard's Tale seriesWhy is the fighter such a wimp?(21 posts)(21 posts)
(21 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 24, 2018
Why is it that my fighter sucks at fighting? Why is he way worse than my rogue? My rogue is my best fighter?

I guess my other question which I am trying to understand right now, is this whole opportunity thing. All too often, I find myself just using my rogue, like 3x to resolve a fight, and never using anyone else. How is that supposed to feel realistic?
Post edited September 24, 2018 by musiclover7
Posted September 24, 2018
At a guess, you either don't have useful skills, or you don't have useful equipment, on your Fighter, but you do on your rogue.

For the most part, your fighter won't be as much of a damage dealer as your rogue. In fact, for most of the game, my fighter (Dalgliesh) just pretty much stood in one place, taunted, and maybe sundered armor while Wringneck and Melody chopped things up. But by virtue of taking hits on his armor (which by end game gets up around 30) and mitigating all that damage, that fighter makes fights survivable. Those squishy backrank characters don't take arrows to the knee very well, but you taunt the archer with the fighter and suddenly those shots are doing 0 to the burly meatshield all dressed up in metal.

Bard's Tale is a party-based game. You'll get the most out of your party if you have a variety of roles accounted for, and "tank" is a fairly important one. It's true that in the earliest parts of the game, the Practitioner is a better tank than a fighter, but that changes around pretty quickly. By mid-game you won't want your Practitioner to be your main tank.
Posted September 24, 2018
Party dynamic change a lot with levels. At low levels rogue is a king and rest of party is just there to use extra opportunity points leftover from rogue abilities.

But later you start getting people with 10-20 armor and suddenly rogue cannot do squat. You need fighters to control them and strip armor. Mages have enough skills and time to get serious magic points. Suddenly you have mage dealing 60-70 unblockable dmg to 2 people, fighter auto-killing anybody with less than 75 hp left - 30-40dmg armor sensitive, non-mental damage rogue can deal at that point seems less impressive.

Yes, he still has his uses, but atm (mid game probably, just reached few last tier talents), 2 fighters and 2 mages do most of interesting job during a fight, with bard and rogue being just a backup.
Posted September 24, 2018
The damage dealer fighter only shines after they unlock the first review board chains. From there on hes pretty much your main damage dealer and the rogue your finisher.

The mace and axe route are for more tanking/offtanking oriented builds great swords is mixed. My only wish was the combat be more challenging (not only by buffing enemy damage which is the way the difficulty settings do here) but with a good enemy variety that could scramble your way of thinking.
Posted September 25, 2018
dont know if this is supposed to be like this or if it is a bug, but the ultimate damage dealer is the drunk bard.
it kinda synergizes and cumulates, so that after drinking / rhyme of duotiming / drinnking etc. the bards strength piles up to 3000 and more (basically as much as you want / have booze in inventory), making him deal ridiculous amounts of damage (simple chop for 600 and more, headknocking for 1500+ mental damage).
by pretty much keeping him drunk all the time he/she consistantly kills 2 or 3 targets per round... more if you can taunt more targets into his "mug throwing" line of fire
furthermore bards seem to keep the drunk status after fight ends and carry it over to the next fight, if they were "drunk enough" last time... didnt care to experiment what the determining factors are... but they definitly loose it after reloading a saved game, so that you have to start from sober in the next fight
long story short:
as long as the bards are drunk (and enough booze in inventory) not even the mad god himself would make it to round 3
this probably is a bug / exploit
Posted September 25, 2018
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harrysgog: dont know if this is supposed to be like this or if it is a bug, but the ultimate damage dealer is the drunk bard.
it kinda synergizes and cumulates, so that after drinking / rhyme of duotiming / drinnking etc. the bards strength piles up to 3000 and more (basically as much as you want / have booze in inventory), making him deal ridiculous amounts of damage (simple chop for 600 and more, headknocking for 1500+ mental damage).
by pretty much keeping him drunk all the time he/she consistantly kills 2 or 3 targets per round... more if you can taunt more targets into his "mug throwing" line of fire
furthermore bards seem to keep the drunk status after fight ends and carry it over to the next fight, if they were "drunk enough" last time... didnt care to experiment what the determining factors are... but they definitly loose it after reloading a saved game, so that you have to start from sober in the next fight
long story short:
as long as the bards are drunk (and enough booze in inventory) not even the mad god himself would make it to round 3
this probably is a bug / exploit
Out of curiosity, is it possible to get strength or damage up so high that an integer overflow occurs?

Also, I read about Strength affecting healing, so could you heal ludicrous amounts of HP this way? (Not that there is that much use for this, as healing more than your maximum doesn't provide any additional benefit.)

As a side note, I should point out that my Bard's Tale 3 party can casually do more damage than this; my Monk hits for around 2000 (4500 after Divine Intervention), and my spellcasters can use the spell whose code is NUKE to do over 2000 damage to all enemies at once.

(Also, it should be "lose", not "loose"; why do people keep making this particular mistake?)
Posted September 25, 2018
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harrysgog: dont know if this is supposed to be like this or if it is a bug, but the ultimate damage dealer is the drunk bard.
it kinda synergizes and cumulates, so that after drinking / rhyme of duotiming / drinnking etc. the bards strength piles up to 3000 and more (basically as much as you want / have booze in inventory), making him deal ridiculous amounts of damage (simple chop for 600 and more, headknocking for 1500+ mental damage).
by pretty much keeping him drunk all the time he/she consistantly kills 2 or 3 targets per round... more if you can taunt more targets into his "mug throwing" line of fire
furthermore bards seem to keep the drunk status after fight ends and carry it over to the next fight, if they were "drunk enough" last time... didnt care to experiment what the determining factors are... but they definitly loose it after reloading a saved game, so that you have to start from sober in the next fight
long story short:
as long as the bards are drunk (and enough booze in inventory) not even the mad god himself would make it to round 3
this probably is a bug / exploit
avatar
dtgreene: Out of curiosity, is it possible to get strength or damage up so high that an integer overflow occurs?

Also, I read about Strength affecting healing, so could you heal ludicrous amounts of HP this way? (Not that there is that much use for this, as healing more than your maximum doesn't provide any additional benefit.)

As a side note, I should point out that my Bard's Tale 3 party can casually do more damage than this; my Monk hits for around 2000 (4500 after Divine Intervention), and my spellcasters can use the spell whose code is NUKE to do over 2000 damage to all enemies at once.

(Also, it should be "lose", not "loose"; why do people keep making this particular mistake?)
yes singing sanctuary score beeing drunk like this boost hp of targetet party member to hilarious numbers (i never tried how far i could take it because of the lack of sugar to craft all the booze, but boosting hp to over 1000 and more is peanuts... and they stay like this for multiple fights or until you save/load

i didnt test if you could overflow... but the hp bar of your char looks funny... a column filling the whole screen
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harrysgog: dont know if this is supposed to be like this or if it is a bug, but the ultimate damage dealer is the drunk bard.
it kinda synergizes and cumulates, so that after drinking / rhyme of duotiming / drinnking etc. the bards strength piles up to 3000 and more (basically as much as you want / have booze in inventory), making him deal ridiculous amounts of damage (simple chop for 600 and more, headknocking for 1500+ mental damage).
by pretty much keeping him drunk all the time he/she consistantly kills 2 or 3 targets per round... more if you can taunt more targets into his "mug throwing" line of fire
furthermore bards seem to keep the drunk status after fight ends and carry it over to the next fight, if they were "drunk enough" last time... didnt care to experiment what the determining factors are... but they definitly loose it after reloading a saved game, so that you have to start from sober in the next fight
long story short:
as long as the bards are drunk (and enough booze in inventory) not even the mad god himself would make it to round 3
this probably is a bug / exploit
avatar
dtgreene: Out of curiosity, is it possible to get strength or damage up so high that an integer overflow occurs?

Also, I read about Strength affecting healing, so could you heal ludicrous amounts of HP this way? (Not that there is that much use for this, as healing more than your maximum doesn't provide any additional benefit.)

As a side note, I should point out that my Bard's Tale 3 party can casually do more damage than this; my Monk hits for around 2000 (4500 after Divine Intervention), and my spellcasters can use the spell whose code is NUKE to do over 2000 damage to all enemies at once.

(Also, it should be "lose", not "loose"; why do people keep making this particular mistake?)
and:
sorry for the bad english (not my native language, so: whatever!!?)
but im quite sure, that you would type some funny stuff yourself, if we had this conversation in German:)
anyways: thx for the advice... hope next time wont do the same mistake again
Post edited September 25, 2018 by harrysgog
Posted September 25, 2018
a few screenshots of damage done / hp gained
Attachments:
screenshot_(16).jpg (448 Kb)
screenshot_(17).jpg (434 Kb)
screenshot_(19).jpg (329 Kb)
Posted September 27, 2018
I feel compelled to mention that I got in a handful of fights with pesky paladins today after leaving Scara Brae for the first time. Everyone got killed except for my fighter, who no one could hit for more than 0 damage. He survived 3 back to back fights and won. Changed my mind entirely on his worthiness.
Posted September 27, 2018
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musiclover7: Why is it that my fighter sucks at fighting? Why is he way worse than my rogue? My rogue is my best fighter?

I guess my other question which I am trying to understand right now, is this whole opportunity thing. All too often, I find myself just using my rogue, like 3x to resolve a fight, and never using anyone else. How is that supposed to feel realistic?
Speak for yourself--my fighter is a lvl 10 *monster*...;) He's an Outlander who does not bleed, etc. So proper character creation is critical. In this game you need to pay attention to the skills you allocate to your party members when they advance. Very important, actually. My rogue, also lvl 10, is very good as a fighter--but not as good by a fair shot as my fighter. But he is a master lock pick, too, and has a couple of cool dagger and bow skill upgrades, too. You have to know when to "move" your players around the grid--especially with some of the fighter skills--which only apply to the squares directly in front of him (first and 2nd row.) Got to move them when the get knocked back, sometimes, too. Etc.
Posted September 28, 2018
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musiclover7: Why is it that my fighter sucks at fighting? Why is he way worse than my rogue? My rogue is my best fighter?

I guess my other question which I am trying to understand right now, is this whole opportunity thing. All too often, I find myself just using my rogue, like 3x to resolve a fight, and never using anyone else. How is that supposed to feel realistic?
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waltc: Speak for yourself--my fighter is a lvl 10 *monster*...;) He's an Outlander who does not bleed, etc. So proper character creation is critical. In this game you need to pay attention to the skills you allocate to your party members when they advance. Very important, actually. My rogue, also lvl 10, is very good as a fighter--but not as good by a fair shot as my fighter. But he is a master lock pick, too, and has a couple of cool dagger and bow skill upgrades, too. You have to know when to "move" your players around the grid--especially with some of the fighter skills--which only apply to the squares directly in front of him (first and 2nd row.) Got to move them when the get knocked back, sometimes, too. Etc.
how much average dmg does your fighter deal per hit?
Posted September 28, 2018
avatar
waltc: Speak for yourself--my fighter is a lvl 10 *monster*...;) He's an Outlander who does not bleed, etc. So proper character creation is critical. In this game you need to pay attention to the skills you allocate to your party members when they advance. Very important, actually. My rogue, also lvl 10, is very good as a fighter--but not as good by a fair shot as my fighter. But he is a master lock pick, too, and has a couple of cool dagger and bow skill upgrades, too. You have to know when to "move" your players around the grid--especially with some of the fighter skills--which only apply to the squares directly in front of him (first and 2nd row.) Got to move them when the get knocked back, sometimes, too. Etc.
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harrysgog: how much average dmg does your fighter deal per hit?
It depends on what Mastery I'm using, of course. I believe the most damaging is a sword swipe (can't recall the name atm) that affects as many enemy combatants as within the arc--up to three at a time--with 17 points damage, each (after I've knocked their armor to 0 in previous turns)--that's fairly impressive. Then there are Masteries that hit for up to 22 points on one enemy, etc. That's all I can recall at present.
Posted October 30, 2022
Stat growth mechanics can be weird in the Bard's Tale, it seems. For example, my mages currently have more HP than my fighters. Rolls of 10+ to HP are rare for my fighters, but my mages get 10+ HP per level all the time.

My recommendation: save scum! Save before entering the Advancement Guild, and save or load immediately after each character. If your Lv. 1 ---> Lv. 2 Warrior gets +2 to HP and +1 to Intelligence, reload the game and try again until you get the stat increases you desire. If your Lv. 1 ---> Lv.2 Conjuror gets +12 to HP, +1 to MP and +1 to Strength, again, reload.
Post edited October 30, 2022 by mastershake68
Posted October 30, 2022
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mastershake68: Stat growth mechanics can be weird in the Bard's Tale, it seems. For example, my mages currently have more HP than my fighters. Rolls of 10+ to HP are rare for my fighters, but my mages get 10+ HP per level all the time.

My recommendation: save scum! Save before entering the Advancement Guild, and save or load immediately after each character. If your Lv. 1 ---> Lv. 2 Warrior gets +2 to HP and +1 to Intelligence, reload the game and try again until you get the stat increases you desire. If your Lv. 1 ---> Lv.2 Conjuror gets +12 to HP, +1 to MP and +1 to Strength, again, reload.
I believe this topic is actually about Bard's Tale 4.

For the classic trilogy, the reason that mages tend to get more HP than fighters is that they get to reset their level without resetting stats. After resetting, their stats can continue to grow (in contrast to Wizardry where stats are lost on class change and HP only increases by 1 per level until the character's other stats catch up), while fighters continue to level slowly. You realistically can get a conjurer or magician almost to level 13 with the amount of XP needed to get a fighter from level 13 to 14; in classic Bard's Tale 3 (or 3 remaster with legacy XP), the fighter will only be halfway to level 14.

Things balance out a bit later on with the slow wizard and archmage levels.
Posted December 04, 2022
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musiclover7: Why is it that my fighter sucks at fighting? Why is he way worse than my rogue? My rogue is my best fighter?

I guess my other question which I am trying to understand right now, is this whole opportunity thing. All too often, I find myself just using my rogue, like 3x to resolve a fight, and never using anyone else. How is that supposed to feel realistic?
Since this is the "Bard's Tale Series" instead of the "Bard's Tale IV" forum, I thought you were talking about the original trilogy.
There was a bug in one of the Apple IIGS versions of Bard's Tale II:Destiny Knight that seriously nerfed all the melee classes except the monk so they did relatively little damage even if they had 18+ strength.
Where in BT1 & 3 a warrior or paladin might do several hundred damage after hitting 4+ times, they'd do less than 50 damage in BT2 no matter what weapon was equipped.
All the classes except the monk suffered from this, but the Hunter made up for it with critical hits, and the Bard could be used with a Bardsword or the Laks' Lyre to just play bard tunes every round. Thieves were generally kept off the front and would just use a returning ranged weapon (the hide in the shadows and backstab at range wasn't introduced until BT3).
The monks on the other hand could 1-hit-KO most foes if you had 20 levels or more (not unreasonable considering the beginners dungeon brings you up to at least level 13 and you should be around that level if transferring characters).

In any case, that was before internet patches, and I didn't get a hand-me-down 1200 baaud modem until 1996, when the 28,800's were the norm and the 33,600s were coming out. I just wrote warriors and paladins off as useless until the 3rd game when you had to make a Geomancer.
I preferred monks anyways since they didn't need equipment and thus had more slots for collecting treasure to sell to Garth or keeping spares for when I use up all the charges on the Lightwand, Dayblade, (there were a lot of darkness areas and this saves SP as even with a Mage Staff or Conjurstaff and just using MAFL it can eat up a lot of SP) or Fire Horn.
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The Bard's Tale seriesWhy is the fighter such a wimp?(21 posts)(21 posts)
(21 posts)