It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
System Shock seriesSystem Shock 2 criticism(112 posts)(112 posts)
(112 posts)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
This is my favourite topic
Posted February 16, 2013
avatar
Righteous_Angel: You have to also take into account that this was released in 1999 and back then it was an exceptional gaming experience. However by todays standards and advancements of course it's not likely to have anywhere near the same affect on gamers.

However I am looking forward to playing it through again though undoubtably it won't be as great a I fondly remember but then nothing ever is.
avatar
jefequeso: Funny thing is that for me, so far it's actually exactly as good as I remember it being. Like, absolutely no change one way or another. We'll see if it holds up as I get further in.
I played "SS2" two years ago and it was as good as it was in '99 (was it 99?). But for someone who knows only current generation of games it may be graphical shock (but I'm sure sound is still up to par).
Posted February 16, 2013
Soooo... back to the original intent of the post....

SS2 has one of the worst Quickload buttons you will ever press. It will instantly load your quicksave without any kind of double confirmation. Accidentally fat-finger the wrong key on your keyboard and it's buh-bye to the last 15 minutes of progress.

Just happened to me. Stinks. :^(

(yes, yes... it's my fault for putting the quickload button right next to the quicksave button, but I really was expecting double confirmation...)
Posted February 16, 2013
avatar
gammaleak: Soooo... back to the original intent of the post....

SS2 has one of the worst Quickload buttons you will ever press. It will instantly load your quicksave without any kind of double confirmation. Accidentally fat-finger the wrong key on your keyboard and it's buh-bye to the last 15 minutes of progress.

Just happened to me. Stinks. :^(

(yes, yes... it's my fault for putting the quickload button right next to the quicksave button, but I really was expecting double confirmation...)
That's why I use F5/F9, they're far enough apart that that mistake can never be made.
Posted February 16, 2013
avatar
Qoelet: PS: "theory" is a structure of thought that describes, often simplifying, a phenomenon. It is pretty much easy to define. I didn't get what you mean.
Many ignorant people feel free to dismiss, for example, the theory of evolution, because "It's just a theory"-- failing to comprehend that "theory" in the scientific context has a well-defined meaning (roughly, an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena).

avatar
gammaleak: SS2 has one of the worst Quickload buttons you will ever press. It will instantly load your quicksave without any kind of double confirmation.
This is how most quickload keys behave. Y'know, QUICKload, gettit? I just tested the quickload function in Deus Ex, DX: Invisible War, Half-Life 2, Portal 2, Fallout 3, and Bioshock, and in all of them it loaded instantly, no confirmation. So if SS2 has the worst quickload, it's in good company.
(yes, yes... it's my fault for putting the quickload button right next to the quicksave button, but I really was expecting double confirmation...)
Indeed. The default Alt-S and Alt-L are much more sensible in that regard.
Posted February 16, 2013
I liked SS1 a lot more, and a lot of my issues with SS2 come from the RPG elements, which I felt, honestly, added nothing and made for a considerably worse experience.

Hacking in particular feels like it's just a bunch of dice rolls. SS1 provided cyberspace and a bunch of little mechanical puzzles.

Also, in a survival horror game or FPS, you balance weapon strength against ammo availability -- more powerful weapons have less ammo. And SS2 does that -- but then it also has the hard stat/skill limits for using weapons, and so now you have a double bar-for-entry, and this doesn't do anything except render a bunch of weapons useless.

So in a lot of ways it plays more like an FPS and an adventure game, but I... still keep running into this stat wall and I'm not really happy about that.
Posted February 16, 2013
avatar
Fenixp: Let's start by the misconcetions, stuff that people say and I believe it's simply not true:
1) System Shock 2 is an RPG
Nope. No way. SS2 has stats and skills, but building your character correctly is not crucial to your success (you can mostly just take whatever and still get trough the game) and your skill as FPS player will be much more important. There are also absolutely no story-based decisions that would be important for the game in any way, shape or form
1. As i understand it genres are not defined by content, they are defined by the context in which the content is presented.

2. character building does not need to be crucial to your success, the entire point of building a character is to build a character. success is irrelevant

3. story-based decisions are completely unnecessary in an RPG

4. System Shock 2 is a FPS/RPG hybrid, this should not come as a surprise as it is labelled as one on the GOG store page

Apologies for poor formatting and poor wording, I seem to have momentarily forgotten how to use my words correctly
Posted February 17, 2013
avatar
TheMiracleofPie: 4. System Shock 2 is a FPS/RPG hybrid, this should not come as a surprise as it is labelled as one on the GOG store page
Read the rest of the topic.
avatar
amccour: I liked SS1 a lot more, and a lot of my issues with SS2 come from the RPG elements, which I felt, honestly, added nothing and made for a considerably worse experience.
Agreed. Ironically, I have finished SS 1 about 5 times, whiles SS2, which, theoretically, should have higher replayability value, about twice.
Post edited February 17, 2013 by Fenixp
Posted February 17, 2013
avatar
Qoelet: You can see by yourself just looking around on the Internet: there is almost no discussion ongoing on what a FPS or an RTS is, but there are many on RPG. It means that is a flawed label, it does not work: let's just forget it.
avatar
ZylonBane: No, it means the internet is full of dumb people. Is "theory" a flawed label because so many don't understand it?

Amongst normal gamers, you can say that Game X is "a turn-based RPG", and the overwhelming majority will instantly have a pretty good idea of what sort of game it is. The only thing you've accomplished by demonstrating that "RPG" is a useless term when interpreted too broadly or too literally is demonstrating why sensible people don't do that.
I think Genres are too broad regardless. Best not waste time trying to "Define" things because we could be here all day trying to analyse ambiguous games such as Shock 2. The point is Genre Ambiguity was a big turning point in this industry that sadly went completely ignored and we just ended up repeating the same stupid mistakes over and over thanks to unwillingness to move away from Genre. This is why TTLG was such a ballsy studio for its time, much like Origin and Ion Storm.. (I mean its basically the same people lol).

Why we're going on and on about Shock 2 is because modern gamers have no idea how good this was. Even if its a bit crude, maybe rough around the edges... doesn't matter.. the context in which this game came out if you realize it, you'd realize why Shock 2 was as influential as it was and why its so fast defended when people criticize it. But in my opinion it should be analysed and criticized so that we can show we've learned from it and appreciate it for what it is. I felt the same way about Deus Ex.
Posted February 17, 2013
The point is Genre Ambiguity was a big turning point in this industry that sadly went completely ignored
I don't thing it was ignored. SS2 had FPS, adventure, and RPG elements, and a lot of the FPSes/action games in that era started taking on adventure-game elements. Unreal and Half-Life were quite story driven, Quake 2 adopted a more open gameworld, and they all started emphasizing puzzles that were more ornate than "Find the Keycard."

Rather, what you didn't see were RPG elements being added to a lot of games outside of the RPG genre. And I think this was less about an unwillingness to try or a rigid adherence to genres, but instead because it wasn't clear whether it was even appropriate.

And I still don't think it always is. As I said, I don't think the RPG elements in SS2 were really good, thing, at all, and similarly, it's lead to goofy situations where you have dice rolls for whether shots hit in STALKER/New Vegas, or where you have to grind for items in online multiplayer FPSes.

I think the biggest issue is when you use skills/stats to take control away from the player. This is why I think Deus Ex was ultimately a much more effective game than SS2. You HAVE skills, but they're all bonuses. Everything can be done untrained, but having the skill points just lets you do stuff better. So even when there are situations where there are some inherent imbalances between skills (PIstol, for instance, covers half as many weapons as rifle), you don't end up locking out a bunch of options in terms of what weapons CAN be used.
Posted February 17, 2013
avatar
Mr_Cyberpunk: This is why TTLG was such a ballsy studio for its time, much like Origin and Ion Storm.
You mean LGS (Looking Glass Studios). TTLG (Through the Looking Glass) is a fan site.
Posted February 17, 2013
Off the top of my head, I can only think of one complaint I have with System Shock 2 that isn't a result of it just being an old game; I don't think the graphics are very good for a 1999 game. SS2 isn't a terrible looking game (for back then) but there are older, better looking first person games. Beyond that minor issue, everything I'd change about the game I wouldn't have when it was new because nothing had ever done any of it significantly better.

As for what genre System Shock 2 is ... I'd say FPS primarily, because you spend most of the game either looking of for or shooting enemies from a first person perspective, and your ability to use your weapons effectively depends more on your own skill at placing cross-hairs on enemies than on what stats you've picked out.
But telling someone System Shock 2 is a FPS is as useless as telling them it's an RPG. There's such a wide gradient of both genres, that without further classification, this game could be from Doom to Stalker to Deus Ex.

If you asked me what kind of game System Shock 2 was, I'd tell you its an FPS with RPG, Survival, and Horror elements.
Posted February 17, 2013
I think the OP is rather badly worded.

Anyway, towards the end, the game does indeed get more linear and definitely rushed. I can't find the sources, but it is supposedly well-known that money problems and a need to ship rushed the game out, cutting out some parts of the final levels (like the dojo where you were supposed to fight Shodan). The ending cutscene in particular is simply appalling considering the rest of the game, it completely ruined the effect of walking through Citadel's MedSci corridors for me. A pity they couldn't say no to EA asking for a multiplayer mode.

Re. SS2 as a FPS-RPG, I sometimes wish it was just an exploration FPS like the first game was, but it tried something new and it worked pretty well. Playing through SS2 again, I can't help but think "this thing is terribly balanced" at times, but when I try to think of better balanced FPS-RPG games, I come up almost empty-handed. It puts an oppressing, scary sandbox full of RPG and FPS elements in the hands of the player and at the end of the day, it is a great experience with many memorable high points.
Post edited February 17, 2013 by faelnor
Posted February 18, 2013
I was SO excited for this game, when gog announced it (via RPS).
Never played before.

I must say, I dont really like the game.
WAY too many BS stuff going on.
All my rants, raves, and lots of questions here (yes, Dave3d there also):
http://forums.seriouszone.com/showthread.php?t=63555

To sum up some pionts (copy/paste):
First hour:
"Are you finding it very difficult?
I went into the med lab, and have died over and over.
Swinging a pipe wrench takes forever, and they always get 1 hit on me before I kill them.
So, the 3 that come in end up killing me (3 hits = death).
I cant even replenish health, as while trying to do so through the Tab menu, the enemies are still hitting me while I am clicking on bags of chips and soda.
And, I am on easy."

Second hour:
"Hit doesnt work all the time (only about 1/2 the time usually, and I am talking about Left Mouse Click doesnt work all the time, not actually hitting things), there is neverending zombies, you NEVER have ANY health, and med needles/chips/soda/snacks do VERY little to up your health.
3 hits and you are dead.
Cant use a gun.
Cant hack anything.
Cant really do anything at all, except pick up voice recorders and items."

3-5 hours in:
"Everything looks the same, everywhere."

"Is there any way to show what the current objective is?"

"Cant carry anything once the backpack is full.

Cant figure out how to continue with researching, when you are at 50%, and it says you need an ingrediant, and you get the ingrediant, you cant combine the 2 OR continue research?

Weapon breakdown is just plain stupid. 7-8 shots, and a gun is useless until you repair it? LAME Seriously guys, LAME /Cartman voice

Every place looks like every other place you have just been to, making getting around very hard.

Unlimited enemies. Talk about Far Cry 2 being insane and idiotic, with its respawning enemies will ya?

The story seems good, but there is just SO much of it, and sometimes it overlaps so you cant hear it. Like, say you open an audio log, click tab to close out of the menu so the audio log is still going and you can protect yourself and check out other areas. BUT, you move like 2 rooms, and xerxes or someone else starts talking over the audio log, and both are going, and you cant hear either one. The only option is to just sit where you are, until the log is done, wasting a few minutes for each log, before moving from that area. And even THAT wont maybe help you, as enemies spawn in the room or come into the room, distracting you so you cant hear it anyway. Grrrrrrrrr

I cant believe this game is everyones favorite rpg, with so many issues."
Posted February 18, 2013
avatar
Dave3d: I was SO excited for this game, when gog announced it (via RPS).
Never played before.

I must say, I dont really like the game.
WAY too many BS stuff going on.
All my rants, raves, and lots of questions here (yes, Dave3d there also):
http://forums.seriouszone.com/showthread.php?t=63555

To sum up some pionts (copy/paste):
First hour:
"Are you finding it very difficult?
I went into the med lab, and have died over and over.
Swinging a pipe wrench takes forever, and they always get 1 hit on me before I kill them.
So, the 3 that come in end up killing me (3 hits = death).
I cant even replenish health, as while trying to do so through the Tab menu, the enemies are still hitting me while I am clicking on bags of chips and soda.
And, I am on easy."

Second hour:
"Hit doesnt work all the time (only about 1/2 the time usually, and I am talking about Left Mouse Click doesnt work all the time, not actually hitting things), there is neverending zombies, you NEVER have ANY health, and med needles/chips/soda/snacks do VERY little to up your health.
3 hits and you are dead.
Cant use a gun.
Cant hack anything.
Cant really do anything at all, except pick up voice recorders and items."

3-5 hours in:
"Everything looks the same, everywhere."

"Is there any way to show what the current objective is?"

"Cant carry anything once the backpack is full.

Cant figure out how to continue with researching, when you are at 50%, and it says you need an ingrediant, and you get the ingrediant, you cant combine the 2 OR continue research?

Weapon breakdown is just plain stupid. 7-8 shots, and a gun is useless until you repair it? LAME Seriously guys, LAME /Cartman voice

Every place looks like every other place you have just been to, making getting around very hard.

Unlimited enemies. Talk about Far Cry 2 being insane and idiotic, with its respawning enemies will ya?

The story seems good, but there is just SO much of it, and sometimes it overlaps so you cant hear it. Like, say you open an audio log, click tab to close out of the menu so the audio log is still going and you can protect yourself and check out other areas. BUT, you move like 2 rooms, and xerxes or someone else starts talking over the audio log, and both are going, and you cant hear either one. The only option is to just sit where you are, until the log is done, wasting a few minutes for each log, before moving from that area. And even THAT wont maybe help you, as enemies spawn in the room or come into the room, distracting you so you cant hear it anyway. Grrrrrrrrr

I cant believe this game is everyones favorite rpg, with so many issues."
There is a way to display current objectives (check your PDA), there's a key you can press to stop audio log playback (default backspace), using the pipe wrench involves more finesse than simply mashing your face against enemies and clicking madly, and the entire point of the first few hours is that you aren't supposed to have massive amounts of resources, and aren't supposed to be able to breeze through encounters by pausing every few seconds to rehealth. Remember, it's a survival horror game as much as it's an FPS or an RPG. Approach it like Resident Evil, not Deus Ex. It gets a little less demanding as you go on (which I think is actually one if its failings).

Not sure what's up with left click not working all the time, though.

Most of the "issues" you list are actually the reasons I like the game so much :P
Posted February 18, 2013
avatar
Dave3d: I was SO excited for this game, when gog announced it (via RPS).
Never played before.

I must say, I dont really like the game.
WAY too many BS stuff going on.
All my rants, raves, and lots of questions here (yes, Dave3d there also):
http://forums.seriouszone.com/showthread.php?t=63555

rantrantrant
and this, ladies and gentlemen, is exactly why games are so worthless today.
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
This is my favourite topic
Community
System Shock seriesSystem Shock 2 criticism(112 posts)(112 posts)
(112 posts)