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System Shock seriesSystem Shock 2 criticism(112 posts)(112 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 15, 2013
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Righteous_Angel: You have to also take into account that this was released in 1999 and back then it was an exceptional gaming experience. However by todays standards and advancements of course it's not likely to have anywhere near the same affect on gamers.

However I am looking forward to playing it through again though undoubtably it won't be as great a I fondly remember but then nothing ever is.
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jefequeso: Funny thing is that for me, so far it's actually exactly as good as I remember it being. Like, absolutely no change one way or another. We'll see if it holds up as I get further in.
Well that's good to hear I hope its the same for me.

The trouble is I always buy things that I used to enjoy when I was younger and end up disappointed. I remember watching McGuyver when I was young and recently they released it on Netflix I was so pleased but half way through the first episode I had to turn it off. Some things are best left to memory but not this game I'm sure.
Posted February 15, 2013
I still like MacGuyver... Sure he's stuck in the late 80's early 1990's. But hey...

Also the first season is one of the best of the series...

BTW, the first episode the pilot , is kinda dorky in some ways... The main episodes after it are much better.
Posted February 15, 2013
What surprised me most about this game is how well it's aged. The graphics are obviously not very good, but playing at 1080p, I find that they do not detract from the experience at all. The atmosphere so far (I'm not too far in yet, but making good progress) is absolutely intense. It isn't "scary", but I can't relax while playing. I'm constantly on the edge of my seat. I fear whatever is around every corner and I walk slowly through every area (versus other games, where you'd just rush through).

The tension it can still create despite being over a decade old is incredible. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been back in 1999.
Posted February 15, 2013
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Ciahast: What surprised me most about this game is how well it's aged. The graphics are obviously not very good, but playing at 1080p, I find that they do not detract from the experience at all. The atmosphere so far (I'm not too far in yet, but making good progress) is absolutely intense. It isn't "scary", but I can't relax while playing. I'm constantly on the edge of my seat. I fear whatever is around every corner and I walk slowly through every area (versus other games, where you'd just rush through).

The tension it can still create despite being over a decade old is incredible. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been back in 1999.
It helps that the game has 8x AA applied. Everything looks quite a bit better with that. :D
Posted February 15, 2013
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Ciahast: What surprised me most about this game is how well it's aged. The graphics are obviously not very good, but playing at 1080p, I find that they do not detract from the experience at all. The atmosphere so far (I'm not too far in yet, but making good progress) is absolutely intense. It isn't "scary", but I can't relax while playing. I'm constantly on the edge of my seat. I fear whatever is around every corner and I walk slowly through every area (versus other games, where you'd just rush through).

The tension it can still create despite being over a decade old is incredible. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been back in 1999.
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povuholo: It helps that the game has 8x AA applied. Everything looks quite a bit better with that. :D
I'd imagine so ;) The game looks really good, the art style and all.
Posted February 15, 2013
Of course SS2 is an RPG, and anyone who claims otherwise is a scurrilous ninnyhammer.
Posted February 15, 2013
I can't really fault the objections here.

I think FPS-RPG is a better label. SS2 allows for a variety of play styles (pure classes, hybridising, etc.) but beyond that the similarities end. I wouldn't say I find it scary, but it's certainly a good game for making me tense as the randomly spawning enemies mean I have to be focused all the time and make every shot count. The most fraught section for me is the first time on the Engineering deck, using your hypos effectively while not being killed as the resurrection chamber is quite far into the level. The cargo bays are eerily quiet at time too.

And yes, the game is very rushed towards the end - and if you're a particular build of psi character you're basically shit out of luck for the final boss fight.

What I like about the game is the variety of items/play styles it permits, the depth of the story through little things like flavour text etc, the large environments and backtracking.
Post edited February 15, 2013 by Oirish_Martin
Posted February 15, 2013
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ZylonBane: Of course SS2 is an RPG, and anyone who claims otherwise is a scurrilous ninnyhammer.
Well obviously, you are right. Your argumentless line has shown me how wrong I was this entire time.
Post edited February 15, 2013 by Fenixp
Posted February 15, 2013
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ZylonBane: Of course SS2 is an RPG, and anyone who claims otherwise is a scurrilous ninnyhammer.
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Fenixp: Well obviously, you are right. Your argumentless line has shown me how wrong I was this entire time.
You already declared that "I'm not willing to discuss it" (meaning, of course, that you know you're wrong but your mind is made up anyway), so I'm giving you precisely the level of intellectual respect that you so richly deserve.

But what the heck, I'm here, may as well grind your arguments into a fine paste:

SS2 has stats and skills, but building your character correctly is not crucial to your success (you can mostly just take whatever and still get trough the game)
False and False. First, there are many, many tales of SS2 woe regarding players being unable to beat the endgame because they hadn't built a sufficiently combat-friendly character. Second, since when is being able to build a gimped character part of the definition of an RPG? Since never, that's when. Especially these days.

...your skill as FPS player will be much more important.
Of course your skill as an FPS player is important. That's what makes it an action-RPG. Doesn't negate the RPG part. In fact even SS2's action components are influenced by the character skills you've selected-- run speed, fall damage, weapons accuracy, etc.

There are also absolutely no story-based decisions that would be important for the game in any way, shape or form
So what? Yes, this is a common RPG element, but it's not a mandatory RPG element. SS2 doesn't have dragons either.

(with some restructuring SS2 could work pretty well even without the RPG bit)
This could be said about almost every RPG ever made. Just strip out the character-building and bam, you have an adventure game, or an FPS, or some kind of simple turn-based strategy game. Are you going to argue that Fallout 3 isn't an RPG? That Oblivion isn't an RPG? Yeesh.

An RPG, in its most basic form, is a character growth simulator with a plot. Anything more specific than that tumbles into the realm of "the kind of RPGs that I specifically like."
Post edited February 15, 2013 by ZylonBane
Posted February 15, 2013
Its basically what I've been saying, alot of the hype is that nasty intersection of Fanboyism and Nostalgia alot of people around here seemed mired in. And theres nothing more worse then a nostalgia infused fanboy loose on the internets.


Maybe Im some kind of robot, but so far I havent been scared, on my first play through. Also I agree with your points about being a fps with RP elements. If you want a real RPG in the first person perspective I'd cite Deus Ex as an example. It doesnt matter how good a FPS player you are, if your skills are crap.
Post edited February 15, 2013 by LordRikerQ
Posted February 15, 2013
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ZylonBane: An RPG, in its most basic form, is a character growth simulator with a plot. Anything more specific than that tumbles into the realm of "the kind of RPGs that I specifically like."
See? Arguments. I said I'm not willing to discuss it, not that it can't be discussed and that I welcome trollish behaviour. I also said that definition of RPG varies by person, what I have said in the initial post is by no means ultimate truth - I guess my point was that a lot of people are trying to pass SS2 as a full-blown RPG, as in Morrowind or Fallout, which it is not - I think we can agree on that. I have always found it misleading.

My opinion is also based on my own experience, which is that whatever you do, game progressively gets easier, regardless of taken skills. I've finished the game twice, played it about 5 times, and I've never hit any kind of dead end. I'll edit bits of your post into the OP if you don't mind. (when I get back anyway)
¨
There is no need to be angry you know :-P
Post edited February 15, 2013 by Fenixp
Posted February 15, 2013
It is most definitely a Role Playing Game. It has three distinct player classes, stat and skill growth, and gear customization. RPG's can be linear, and in some cases having a linear plot is actually better for the overall vision of the game.

In fact, the FPS nature of this game is subservient to the RPG portions, as your weapon skills and the quality of your gear is far more important to overall damage then your twitch shooting. It is similar to the Elder Scrolls series take on FPS in this way.

Also, the horror genera can be approached in many different ways, and in System Shock 2 it is mostly about the sound design coupled with very good level layout. It is meant to get into your head, and much like a form of hypnotism, if you do not allow it to get in your head, and suspend your disbelief, there will be very little to scare you. (This is the reason that horror movies never get to me, I can't get into them enough for them to frighten me.)

Also, as for your character getting more powerful and capable towards the end. That is the definition of an RPG. Perhaps there could have been a few tweaks to the escalation of enemies. But this game was not designed as an FPS, it is a RPG/FPS hybrid, and having that power curve has been a staple of the genera since its inception.
Posted February 15, 2013
I won't go into the whole RPG argument but I am going to side with the "SS2 is an RPG" side and leave it at that.

As for criticism, my biggest problem with the game is the collision detection. Granted this is based on my experience with a pirated copy of the game with SSTool which ran perfectly fine for the most part but there was plenty of instances of getting stuck on objects, mostly guard rails and getting off of ladders at their top could be treacherous. Also with the Rickenbacker Deck 2 (the one with the inverted gravity) actually getting through the door to the deck itself was a hit or miss affair, crouch jumping often times making it look like I was leaping at an invisible wall. I honestly thought I had come across a game-breaking bug until I found a sort-of solution that worked was looking at the floor and then jumping through the door with your aim still downward. Needless to say the climbing mechanic while a definite nicety can cause instances of getting trapped between objects. Also one instance of clipping where a hybrid was able to hit me through one of the game's broken doors and a few times where laser turrets seemingly could hit me while I was hiding around a corner or pillar but these were less severe. Still it's better than with Deus Ex and Thief, the latter having the same problems but to a much worse extent, and Deus Ex where I strafed through an entire wall and that annoying invisible barrier coating every building (making for plenty of times when trying to snipe around a corner ends up shooting the invisible coat instead), something which also was there to a smaller degree in Thief. Climbing ladders in Deus Ex was practically a matter of life or death in that game too, and don't get me started on the ropes in Thief. This was after having applied the latest patches/updates to those games too. So... frustrating but I guess when trying to design games as daunting as these polish tends to take a back seat sometimes huh? And I haven't even tried Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines which I hear is overwhelmed with technical issues.
Post edited February 15, 2013 by cannard
Posted February 15, 2013
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aerken: It has three distinct player classes
Marine/Navy/OSI are only recommended upgrade paths. The game doesn't actually enforce them once you get out of training.

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cannard: And I haven't even tried Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines which I hear is overwhelmed with technical issues.
VtM: Bloodlines is an incredible Deus Ex-style action RPG which you absolutely should play, and with the latest Wesp patches it is highly polished and stable.
Post edited February 15, 2013 by ZylonBane
Posted February 15, 2013
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aerken: It has three distinct player classes
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ZylonBane: Marine/Navy/OSI are only recommended upgrade paths. The game doesn't actually enforce them once you get out of training.

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cannard: And I haven't even tried Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines which I hear is overwhelmed with technical issues.
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ZylonBane: VtM: Bloodlines is an incredible Deus Ex-style action RPG which you absolutely should play, and with the latest Wesp patches it is highly polished and stable.
You can stray out from your initial choice, but the upgrades come in three flavors. Branching out is more like multi classing rather than being truly class-less. But that is semantics, so it really does not matter. It is definitely fun.

And Bloodines is incredible, and actually does have multiple endings. Some of which are awesome. But the whole thing is hugely atmospheric, well written, and has surprisingly fun game play. So if anyone has not played it, do so. It is one of the best in the style of SS2/Deus Ex.
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This is my favourite topic
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System Shock seriesSystem Shock 2 criticism(112 posts)(112 posts)
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