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Star Wars™: X-Wing and TIE Fighter seriesXWVM - Any interest?(1272 posts)(1272 posts)
(1272 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 19, 2016
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Laserschwert: Thanks, that's all I needed to know. I have no idea if I have time to work on these, but I thought I'd ask, just in case ;)
Not sure what you are planning, but if anybody with a droplet of talent wants to attempt a better try on the Y-Wing cockpit, I will happily send the one I made to the trash bin. It is totally programmer's art.
Posted August 19, 2016
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scotsdezmond: Just to throw this out there: there is also the possibility of different aspect ratios being used, which could influence FOV and instrument placement.

These days, a 16:9 ratio is of course most likely, but I would imagine some players would want to play in 4:3, 16:10, 21:9 (those new LG ultrawide monitors seem to be a popular choice) and 5:4 (if they're still rocking a 1280x1024 screen).
*raises hand*
Posted August 19, 2016
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Laserschwert: Thanks, that's all I needed to know. I have no idea if I have time to work on these, but I thought I'd ask, just in case ;)
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Azrapse: Not sure what you are planning, but if anybody with a droplet of talent wants to attempt a better try on the Y-Wing cockpit, I will happily send the one I made to the trash bin. It is totally programmer's art.
Which is precisely the reason we don't have fully rendered cockpits yet. The skillset required is totally different from that of programming, mission building, and even modeling and texturing spaceship exteriors.
Posted August 20, 2016
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Azrapse: I have no experience with VR. But I was thinking on developing the game in a way that the user could tweak the eye camera height, distance to the dashboard and FOV so that they would feel personally comfortable. A bit like what you do when you sit first on a car you have never driven before, and you move the seat and the mirrors around before starting it.
Again, I don't know if that is the standard procedure with VR games or that would be considered too advanced and, instead, we need to make a set of settings the user chooses one from.
I might be able to provide some feedback here (I'm the guy from the XWAU forums btw). I consulted with a friend of mine who's been actively developing for VR for the last few years who was able to provide some insights. I'll just kind of quote him word for word here (with minor editing for clarity) so I don't misconstrue anything:

"Well if they are going to have VR they need to build a full interior for the ships, not just the cockpit dashboard and not just the front part of the ship. Other than that it's just a regular ass 3d model, and they need to be to-scale. So no fridge-box sized ships, even if it looks right on monitor. It'll look like a lego starship if you don't scale it to the accurate "real life" scale these thing are supposed to be.

An object is at whatever scale it's at period, monitors just tend to make tiny shit look bigger. You notice it in VR because the view is actually 3D. Left/right eye views are showing shit separated by the distance between your eyes, so all depth cueing works right. You can instantly know shit's not scaled right."

Rule of thumb: if you couldn't get away with making a prop to the scale you're using, it wouldn't work in VR either. E.g., no 2ft dashboard + 50 deg FOV, since a 2ft long dahsboard would be absurd and look like a toy, but it doesn't look so absurd on a super low FOV monitor when stretched across the monitor."

Took me a moment to visualize it in my head, but it makes sense. And for cockpits I could see this being particularly troublesome since you really don't want players to feel extremely claustrophobic, or having any number of other weird scaling/visual issues. Unfortunately, I'm not exactly sure how this impacts current plans for the cockpits, as outlined in the rest of your post.
Post edited August 20, 2016 by ender910
Posted August 20, 2016
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Azrapse: I have no experience with VR. But I was thinking on developing the game in a way that the user could tweak the eye camera height, distance to the dashboard and FOV so that they would feel personally comfortable. A bit like what you do when you sit first on a car you have never driven before, and you move the seat and the mirrors around before starting it.
Again, I don't know if that is the standard procedure with VR games or that would be considered too advanced and, instead, we need to make a set of settings the user chooses one from.
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ender910: I might be able to provide some feedback here (I'm the guy from the XWAU forums btw). I consulted with a friend of mine who's been actively developing for VR for the last few years who was able to provide some insights. I'll just kind of quote him word for word here (with minor editing for clarity) so I don't misconstrue anything:

"Well if they are going to have VR they need to build a full interior for the ships, not just the cockpit dashboard and not just the front part of the ship. Other than that it's just a regular ass 3d model, and they need to be to-scale. So no fridge-box sized ships, even if it looks right on monitor. It'll look like a lego starship if you don't scale it to the accurate "real life" scale these thing are supposed to be.

An object is at whatever scale it's at period, monitors just tend to make tiny shit look bigger. You notice it in VR because the view is actually 3D. Left/right eye views are showing shit separated by the distance between your eyes, so all depth cueing works right. You can instantly know shit's not scaled right."

Rule of thumb: if you couldn't get away with making a prop to the scale you're using, it wouldn't work in VR either. E.g., no 2ft dashboard + 50 deg FOV, since a 2ft long dahsboard would be absurd and look like a toy, but it doesn't look so absurd on a super low FOV monitor when stretched across the monitor."

Took me a moment to visualize it in my head, but it makes sense. And for cockpits I could see this being particularly troublesome since you really don't want players to feel extremely claustrophobic, or having any number of other weird scaling/visual issues. Unfortunately, I'm not exactly sure how this impacts current plans for the cockpits, as outlined in the rest of your post.
Thanks for the insightful post!

Currently, the game has a cockpit interior to at 1:1 scale with the ship exterior, (and of course, matches the geometry of the ship exterior). I don't know how claustrophobic the Y-Wing cockpit will feel in VR. It kind of feels so in the movies. But the BTL-S3 Y-Wing is a two-seater, so it should have plenty of room behind the pilot for the optional turret gunner (an optional coop mode I wish to implement some day)

Also, everything in the game follows a 1:1 scale with their "real world" counterparts.
That gave us problems already with long distances and loss of precision with the game engine float coordinates, but we solved that already by making the game player-centrist (the world moves around the player, instead of the player moving around the world). Now I am happy that I didn't choose to solve that by scaling down the world, that was the other possibility. That would have given us problems with VR, as you said.

The cockpit I made has only the front dashboard detailed. The rest are flat surfaces that I didn't bother detailing because they weren't going to be used at this stage. However, the game is supposed to allow the pilot to look around, we had to create the full interior sooner or later anyway. Also, the gunner station should have some detailing for later, but which instruments the gunner needs is something that is yet to be determined.

I am not sure how will we do with all the dead-angles, though. In the original game, when you look at a direction where the line of sight is blocked by the cockpit body, instead, you are shown some kind of monitor displaying what looks to be the footage of a camera mounted on the exterior of the cockpit, towards that angle.
For example, if you look up by pressing the keypad 5, since the Y-Wing ceiling is totally solid, you get a monitor labeled "UP".
How can that be done with VR, I don't know. I can think on solutions, like making the cockpit become transparent, like in the "Contact" movie. But that sounds too otherworldly.
A panel that slides don't in front of the pilot's eyes showing the view outside? It would look okay on a flat monitor, but I bet it would be disconcerting in VR stereoscopic view.
Posted August 20, 2016
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Azrapse: I am not sure how will we do with all the dead-angles, though. In the original game, when you look at a direction where the line of sight is blocked by the cockpit body, instead, you are shown some kind of monitor displaying what looks to be the footage of a camera mounted on the exterior of the cockpit, towards that angle.
For example, if you look up by pressing the keypad 5, since the Y-Wing ceiling is totally solid, you get a monitor labeled "UP".
How can that be done with VR, I don't know. I can think on solutions, like making the cockpit become transparent, like in the "Contact" movie. But that sounds too otherworldly.
A panel that slides don't in front of the pilot's eyes showing the view outside? It would look okay on a flat monitor, but I bet it would be disconcerting in VR stereoscopic view.
How about a display low down at one side (i.e. not visible when facing directly forward) that acts as a 'security' display, showing the full set traditional camera views (UP, UP HIGH, etc.)?

This way, you would get two separate behaviours:
- in VR mode, pressing the numpad keys changes the view on the side display to show the appropriate camera view (the view ahead display could show something else potentially, like a zoomed ahead view, a technical schematic or just toggling the display panel on/off)
- in non-VR mode, pressing the numpad keys changes the whole view to the appropriate camera view (i.e. the vanilla game behaviour) and the display isn't used (and depending on the positioning, might not be visible at all)?

I'll grant that this would be a compromise solution, but I think it might solve the issue while not giving VR players a disconcerting experience and remaining (somewhat) faithful to the intentions of the original game. Plus, it might be a bit more comfortable for VR players not having to physically look over their shoulder as much (although that would still be an option).

I also realise this would not be a 'canon' solution, but given that the cockpits from the original game aren't exactly accurate to the filming sets anyway I don't think it would be a bad addition.
Post edited August 20, 2016 by scotsdezmond
Posted August 20, 2016
How does it work, with a VR headset, to press particular keys on the keyboard? You cannot see the keyboard, or can you?
Posted August 20, 2016
How cool would it be not only to see the original cockpits in VR, but also all the classic interiors preferably from the DOS-versions?
I think the way "Wing Commander: Flat Universe" (also a Unity based game) handles interiors and cutscenes could work on XWVM as well. :)
http://flatuniverse.solsector.net/
Posted August 20, 2016
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Azrapse: How does it work, with a VR headset, to press particular keys on the keyboard? You cannot see the keyboard, or can you?
That's a fair point - I hadn't really thought about that (I've only used a Rift once). When I tried it with EVE Valkyrie and House of the Dying Sun, it was using an Xbox One controller rather than a keyboard.

That being said, adapting the existing set of controllers to something like an xbox controller is already difficult - between the different targeting options (target next craft, target objective, target newest craft, toggle target system, etc...), power management (more difficult in TIE fighter and later because of beam weapons), weapon options (active weapon, linked fire), wingman assignments - that's an awful lot of potential controls!

I've tried using controller layouts from SavingContent (http://www.savingcontent.com/2014/08/09/guide-play-x-wing-tie-fighter-series-on-windows-7-windows-8-windows-8-1-with-an-xbox-xb1-playstation-ps4-controller-flight-stick/), and a version that involved toggling a control set when holding down one of the shoulder buttons, but even then there were still some controls omitted.

Unfortunately I don't have any other ideas at this point as to how to deal with the problem, other than effectively touch-typing in VR mode.

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Edit: Actually I was thinking about it and there probably are some alternative options - the one that has come to mind is a radial menu control when using a controller. (Inspiration from Alien Isolation - http://cdn4.artofthetitle.com/assets/sm/upload/p8/ut/t1/b7/2014-12-13_00022.jpg)

Imagine having just one button mapped for laser control - say L1. You hold down L1, a radial menu pops up (just a small transparent box in the middle of the display, at a comfortable distance away if in VR mode) and gives you options to:
- toggle power level (i.e. F9 in standard controls)
- transfer power from shields (; in standard controls)
- toggle linked fire modes (x in standard controls)
You move one of the thumbsticks (the one on the right?) to select the option and release L1 to perform the action.

A similar control could be used for anything where there is a 'tree' of actions - shields, wingmen, targeting - effectively cutting down on the number of controller buttons that are needed.
Post edited August 20, 2016 by scotsdezmond
Posted August 20, 2016
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FekLeyrTarg: How cool would it be not only to see the original cockpits in VR, but also all the classic interiors preferably from the DOS-versions?
I think the way "Wing Commander: Flat Universe" (also a Unity based game) handles interiors and cutscenes could work on XWVM as well. :)
http://flatuniverse.solsector.net/
Those interiors are really nice!
Posted August 20, 2016
A little more on controls: I tried to work out how controls might work if trying to use a convential controller and not having to work around game engine limitations (as we do at the moment if playing in DOSBox, even if using something like Joy2Key).

I've attached a potential controller layout that could (maybe?) work if hiving off some options into sub menus for controller users (players using a keyboard would be unaffected). I also mocked up a radial menu, but all I think it proves is that I shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Photoshop due to a lack of skills... If some kind of menu was being used, this functionality could be explained in-universe by being some kind of basic HUD in the pilot's helmet?

I also sketched out a list of possible controls that are probably candidates for mapping to a controller, and how they might work if arranged into some kind of menus or groups (I may have missed some) - the ones in italics are not included in the original X-Wing:

Radial menus:
Weapons:
- Cycle linked fire options
- Cycle weapons
- Cycle laser power level
- Redirect power from shields to lasers
- Redirect power from beams to lasers

Shields:
- Cycle shield configuration
- Cycle shield power level
- Redirect power from lasers to shields
- Redirect power from beams to shields

Beam:
- Cycle beam power level
- Redirect power from lasers to beams
- Redirect power from shields to beams

Wingmen / Comms:
- Attack target
- Ignore target
- Report in
- Head home
- Board (reload craft)
- Evasive action
- Wait for orders
- Continue with mission
- Request reinforcements
- Dock
- Pickup

Craft:
- Hyperspace home
- Toggle s-foils
- End mission
- Eject
- SLAM overdrive

Buttons:
- Fire
- Acknowledge message (enter hangar, target missile, etc) / Click option (menus)
- Full throttle
- Throttle up
- Throttle down
- Roll (button hold) (presumably not needed if player has a joystick with twist?)
- Target ship in sight
- Next target
- Nearest craft targeting player
- Threat display
- Cycle messages / goals / damage / map display
Attachments:
controls.jpg (157 Kb)
radial-mockup-sm.jpg (443 Kb)
Post edited August 20, 2016 by scotsdezmond
Posted August 21, 2016
Why have the radial menu as an overlay anyway? You have the targeting screen (or info screen) right in front of you in every cockpit - just display the radial menu on there.
Post edited August 21, 2016 by Laserschwert
Posted August 21, 2016
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Laserschwert: Why have the radial menu as an overlay anyway? You have the targeting screen (or info screen) right in front of you in every cockpit - just display the radial menu on there.
Yes, that's a fair point and is probably a better idea.

The definite advantage of displaying it on the targeting screen is much increased immersion, plus you could theme it to fit with the schematics view (e.g. like the red and blue readout boxes next to fighters in the vanilla game).

Part of my thinking about an overlay was to allow the controls to be used even if you are looking in another direction (one of the view directions / free look / turning head in VR).

But, if the layout of the radial menus is tuned correctly, I would imagine it should be very possible to use the menu without actually seeing it each time, once muscle memory kicks in (potentially, a low volume sound, like a quiet beep of some kind, that plays when an option is highlighted would also help here).

Whatever solution is eventually implemented to aid controller function will probably face challenges in terms of designing the menus for usability. Part of why I like radial menus is that they mirror the thumbstick operation, and all options can be selected with a click-single thumb motion-release/second click pattern. A traditional stacked menu would require multiple button presses to reach the lower/middle options.

To aid muscle memory, any kind of menu design would probably need to:
- keep option positions consistent, both between different menus (e.g. the option to divert lasers to shields, and the option to divert shields to lasers, should be in the same physical position in their respective menus) and between the same menus in different craft (layouts would need to be consistent enough so that the menu positions are the same between flying a basic craft with no equipment compared to an advanced one with more stuff)
- maybe use subtly different beep tones for each option that is highlighted - as mentioned above this would be a non-visual confirmation to the player that the desired option was selected ("when I hear this tone, I know I've selected the 'cycle system power recharge level' option...")
- allow at least the most-often-used functions to be accessible via controller, and preferably as many as possible
- allow functions to be selected as quickly and simply as possible via a controller, so as not to disadvantage the player in a dogfight
Posted August 21, 2016
instead of pressing keys on the keyboard, click buttons modeled or textured in the cockpit with the mouse. Would work on a monitor or VR. The 3 groups of 4 function keys could easily be represented in the same order as the keyboard with maybe the "shift" versions being above.

The mouse pointer could quite easily be a 1st person arm & hand as well.
Post edited August 21, 2016 by MjrParts
Posted August 21, 2016
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MjrParts: instead of pressing keys on the keyboard, click buttons modeled or textured in the cockpit with the mouse.
Flight Simulator X does this, too. :-)
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This is my favourite topic
Community
Star Wars™: X-Wing and TIE Fighter seriesXWVM - Any interest?(1272 posts)(1272 posts)
(1272 posts)