Hello there,


i always wanted to make a dwarfen melee dps build in pathfinder kingmaker, but im not alrdy see throu all of the game mechanics and have no good weapon overview.

First of all the race should be a dwarf ofc.

Stats i dunno. I guess high STR would be nice and some con and otherstats nothing under 10 for penalties.

For classes i guess some mix of fighter and something else. Maybe 1-2 dips into alchy for mutagen? Im rly not good in those.

The class should be wearing 2 1hand weapons.
I guess heavy maces are rly good for the 1 hand. (i found some even at the beginning/first acts)
And in the other hand, maybe an estoc, longsword, scimitar or falcata? Dunno what would work rly good together.

I know that 2x 1hand melee dps chars are not so fine like in for example BG 2 or other games, but i guess it should be possible to make an atleast fine build right?

Would be happy for any help :) like classes/stat points and skills.

Have a nice day ;)

I'm more familiar with pen and paper than with Kingmaker, so if anything I say is not accurate people can correct me, but I can still give some general pointers.

First of all, two-weapon fighting is typically much better with dexterity than with strength. This is primarily because the two-weapon fighting feats require dexterity as a prerequisite, and there are few options to get around it. If you do want to go the strength route, you're pretty much locked into Ranger as it's the only way to qualify for the necessary feats without crippling dexterity investment (which you really can't afford, especially as a dwarf), and you would rather be a Fighter to benefit from weapon training.

It's preferable to use the same weapon type in both hands, as feats that specialize you in specific weapons then apply to both of them. You want your weapon of choice to have favorable critical hit properties and to count as a light weapon. None of the weapons you've listed meet that criteria. Maces have poor critical hit properties, the estoc only counts as a light weapon in your main hand (not your off-hand), while longsword, scimitar, and falcata aren't light weapons. In general the kukri is seen as the best weapon choice for two-weapon fighting since it's a light weapon with great critical hit properties. You can use the effortless dual wielding Advanced Weapon Training option (if you have the DLC) to get around the requirement of light weapons, but at the same time you can use the focused weapon Advanced Weapon Training option to upgrade the damage of your kukris to hit even harder than those bigger weapons. As a result, effortless duel wielding is strictly outclassed.

Focusing in critical hits is important because two-weapon fighting lets you crit fish. The large number of attack rolls means you can score critical hits more consistently, and at higher levels you can get feats that cause debilitating penalties to enemies when you crit them. This has obviously powerful synergy with two-weapon fighting. It also makes the Fighter a very attractive class, as you need a lot of feats to get these benefits, plus it gives you access to weapon training and advanced weapon training which are superb.

Dipping Alchemist can be very solid. Mutagen and Extracts are great, and the Vivisectionist archetype is available to trade off bombs (which are not very useful if you're just dipping). Unfortunately it does slow down progression in your main class and has slower attack progression so your accuracy will suffer, but it can definitely be worthwhile.

As for stat points, the biggest and most important one is to try to pump your main attacking stat, be it strength or dexterity. Starting with a 16 is your absolute minimum, and you really want an 18 if possible (which is hard to do as a dwarf since you don't get a racial bonus to either strength or dexterity). Every extra point you can get matters, as it helps with accuracy and hitting stuff is super important.

One thing to keep in mind when creating a front-liner in Kingmaker is that AC is absolutely critical. Enemies in this game are extremely accurate and deal enormous amounts of damage, and can eliminate even very high HP front-liners in short order. This makes anything that boosts AC significantly more valuable.

That's a good point; Slayers can use their talents to access Ranger combat styles, so it would also work for this purpose. Studied Target definitely has a lot of synergy here, so if you want to go the strength route I think that's your best bet. 18-20/x2 has triple the chance of a critical hit over 20/x2

The Kukri's 18-20 means you score a critical threat when the 20-sided attack die rolls an 18, 19, or 20. Meanwhile the heavy mace's 20 means you only score a critical threat when the 20-sided attack die rolls a 20.

It's pretty much any ol' melee build, except with the dwarf. Will be a bit shafted on the stats as you are not master race human or motherless, but it's not that crippling. You also probably don't want to go d/w out of the gate and will use either 2h or s/b till early teens. Main reason for that is with armor and items available in the game you can get away with starting relatively low on dex. Another reason would be you have to cover your AC ramp needs early on and get shatter up and running.

Next in line is doing something that justifies going dw to begin with. So you'd need something with decent sneak dice. Easiest way to go about it would be starting with divine guardian 3(cause it can use his ability on himself for 4AC), grabbing 1 monk level at 4 to get crane style without spending 3 feats on it, then going full on vivi. You do miss out on mirror image that way, but then I don't think you should be playing on unfair if you are new either way, so it'll be fine. That'll net you good AC ramp. sneak dice, self-sustained shield and your d/w would be justified with some sneak dice.

Weapon choice would probably be redeemer in main hand and allslayer or perfection in off-hand

Thank you guys and ineffect too for the answers :)

Sadly there is no higher crit value for heavy maces or dwarven special weapons. But i looked at a weapon list and the +dwarven+ weapons are rly rare magical wise huh?
I hope in pathfinder 2 they will bring some more magical versions of rare weapons too.

What do you think of this build?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZTgmi1cIeE&feature=emb_title

I know its for human, but i can adjust it ofc ^^

And bout skills and feat. I bet not 2x weapon focus then but only dw-feats right?

I guess estoc would be also a nice weapon ?:) Bec. of crit multipl.

Dwarven waraxes pretty much don't exist, so... yeah. As I said, if you want to d/w you pretty much have to go redeemer+perfection/allslayer. It's garbage. If only cause it was made by person who doesn't play games he makes "guides" and "builds" for. I aint wasting my time watching it. You would need a focus either way for the shatter. As to perfection or allslayer the difference is marginal. The former is pretty much +2 AC and the latter does divine damage. Technically it's possible to get two blinding lights. If you are willing to suffer all game without anything decent for the sake of having cool weapons for a few hours before the game ends. longswords at least have rageclaw and whatnot.

That wasn't my experience when I ran a Dwarf. Off the top of my head I can think of several promising Waraxes.

1. Oleg will sell you a MW Dwarven Waraxe right at the start of the game.

2. Dragn gives you the unique "Opportunist's Dwarven Waraxe", a Speed Dwarven Waraxe +1 that does 9 extra damage on a critical hit. Weapons of Speed are some of the best weapons that exist in the game, and you can get this one relatively early and it should serve you well most of the game.

3. Outside the Tenebruous Depths, Xelliren will sell you a Frost Dwarven Waraxe +1 for just 8300g.

4. Floor VI of the Tenebruous Depths, the fire level. This is, in my opinion, one of the easier floors but everyone's mileage will differ. There's a Corrosive Dwarven Waraxe +2 here.

5. When you're finishing up Harrim's quest in the Lost Dwarven Fortress for Clan Skjegge there's a great Cold Iron Dwarven Waraxe +3 that'll serve you well in the endgame vs all the Fey.

6. In the Grocery Stalls in Thousand Voices there's a Flaming Plant Bane Dwarven Waraxe +3 just waiting for you to pick it up.

7. In case you had trouble finding any of the above or completing quests, the Pitax Trader sells Dwarven Waraxes +4 for 32,000g.

There's probably some more here and there from other merchants or lying around, but those were the big ones I know about.

But there's no waraxe worth mentioning and no endgame weapon in the category, unless you qualify +4weapon from rushlight as such. So they pretty much don't exist. 1avg damage difference with swords is not worth it. Especially if you are going to D/W it as perfection in off-hand will offset the long weapon penalty. Not to mention you won't find any dwarven waraxe that is even close to redeemer.

PS I mean, sure, there were worse sacrifices made in the name or RP than running a bad weapon, but it's not something I'd advise to a person who asked for help. Suggestions are not supposed to make things harder on him.
PPS. while I'm at it. to the OP, I forgot to say that double sword is actually not a bad option either since you do get 1.5 str mod on it and force damage is nice too.

Nonsense, the Cold Iron Dwarven Waraxe is a far better endgame weapon than Perfection. All those Fey at the end of the game have DR Cold Iron / 15. The Ankours, Wild Hunt Archers, Monarchs, Scouts, Nyrissa, Nymphs, Satyrs, Vilderavn, etc. Perfection, while a good weapon, is doing 15 points less damage on every swing.

And dual-wielding? You'll run into Primal Treants which're plants but still have Cold Iron resistance but vulnerability to fire. That Flaming Plant Bane Waraxe is aces against them, not to mention those pain in the ass Mandragora Swarms, Autumn Golems, Quickwoods, etc. All the endgame monsters are essentially weak against the two best Dwarven Waraxes.

Your problem, which has been a long running one, is that you look at things in a vacuum. Perfection is a PLUS FIVE weapon that gives all these bonuses. By itself, it's arguably the best weapon in the game. In context though? Either of those Dwarven Waraxes is just plain better. Not to mention the Speed Waraxe is available early in Chapter 2. Perfection isn't available until the ass-end of the game.

Now, as far as Allslayer goes, it's a unique weapon with a unique ability. But it's a shortsword, which means he'd have to be built for shortswords through the entire game just to make sure that he could use this one for the ending to bypass damage reduction which he ALREADY could've bypassed using the Waraxes.

A couple of more thoughts while I'm on the topic. If the OP is set for dual-wielding, I'd recommend the Urgrosh. Dwarves get the ability to use this double exotic weapon for free, and there's plenty lying all around the game.

MW Urgrosh from Oleg / Find one a tthe Stag Lord and his father's abandoned house in Act 1
Corrosive Dwarven Urgrosh +1 sold by Xelliren outside Tenebruous Depths
Necrotic Dwarven Urgrosh +1 sold by the Skeletal Horseman
Dwarven Urgrosh +3 in the Temple of the Elk after Vordakai
Pitax, as with all weapons, sells a +4 variant
Same place that gives you the Cold Iron Waraxe in my earlier post gives you a Flaming Burst Adamantine Dwarven Urgrosh +3
Endgame gives you a Frost Cold Iron Dwarven Urgrosh +5 to wreck all those final Fey encounters

Not that dual-wielding Dwarven Waraxes ISN'T viable. It's just a question of would you rather have -2/-2 for 1d8/1d8 or -4/-4 for 1d10/1d10. Both groups of weapons have energy variants which makes them ideal dual-wielders.

Also, I recommend STRONGLY from doing the tired Monk dip / Vivi build. The Slayer class has everything you're going to want or need. Automatic two-weapon fighting feats to let you use non-finessable weapons viably, inherent sneak attack to make them really hurt and secondary attack-buffing abilities to make sure they land. Slayer might as well rename itself "Strength Two-Weapon Fighting class."

perfection is an off-hand weapon. Not a main-hand one. Main one would be redeemer. Also, +5weapons count as adamantine and everything prior in terms of overcoming natural DR, so that point is moot as well. Only thing that they don't overcome is dr/-. Reason why perfection is good is it counters the -4 penalty for 2 long weapons with +2untyped AB bonus and even adds a bit of damage and AC on top of that.

As to allslayer the weapon is good for the sole reason it's +5 divine damage and also keen and as such requires no investments whatsoever to use as an off-hand with whatever primary you'd use. 1AB from focus is irrelevant. Doubly so for the off-hand. Talk about looking at things in the vaccuum. You were away from the game for too long, lost your eye for synergies, it seems.

I forgot about that PF change from 3.5, one of the dumber changes now that I recall. It makes 90% of the weapon abilities in the game redundant. Like why have Cold Iron +3 weapons at all if +3 is inherently high enough to bypass all Cold Iron? For every QoL change Paizo made, they made two more totally unnecessary ones, changing things for the sake of having changed them whether it was for the betterment of the game or not.

Still, the fact remains that the Cold Iron Waraxe or especially the Flaming Plant Bane Waraxe are still superior to the Allslayer. Both negate all endgame DR, and the average damage from one is 8 (tying the Allslayer) and the average damage from the other is 11(even higher vs Plants). Even Redeemer doesn't account for much more. Holy only activates against evil minions, which none of the Fey are. It's functionally just a +5 Flaming d8 which averages to 12.

And with two-weapon fighting the most important thing is extra damage dice, which neither Allslayer or Perfection have.

Yep, I was away awhile. I came back to find things never change. A new player wanted to play a Dwarf and had this picture of him dual wielding Dwarf weapons. InEffect swooped in to criticize his suboptimal race selection, and tell him not to dual-wield because it wasn't effective. He then tried to push his personal meme go-to of Guardian 3/ Monk 1/ Vivi X for the umpteenth million time to solve for an AC issue that no one mentioned or even factored into the topic. And finally, on the subject of Dwarven weapons? LOL! Use these Longswords instead.

So, the end result of someone asking for help on a dual-wielding Dwarf with Dwarf weapons was you pushing a Human minmaxed Tank build with longswords. Yeah, I'm talking about things in a vacuum because after all this time you haven't grown one bit as a theorycrafter. Always trying to minmax every tiny excruciating dot you can out of everything and sneering at anything remotely related to concept or RP.

Waraxes and Urgroshes ARE viable and more than effective through the entire runthrough. You DON'T need to multiclass into random minmax class dips to have a good and fun build. Rather than push your need to try and break everything to its lowest common denominator, why not just try and help him make the character he saw in his head as effectively and TRUE TO CONCEPT as you could?

First of all I didn't say not to play a dorf. I said it won't be anything cripplingly bad even though it doesn't bring in anything of value. As to DG3/TM1/V16 it's simply the easiest option for a newer player to play with set parameters. It has the AC ramp, quite a lot of front-loaded feats, has sneak dice to justify dual-wielding he wanted, gets to 16BAB so he doesn't need to rely on transform in most fights. Don't exactly see anything wrong with the advice.

Just that off the bat when someone mentioned playing an un-optimized race you felt the need to chime in on their statistical inferiority. Like you couldn't help yourself. At least you didn't pitch Aasimar for the billionth time though. That's some sort of growth, I guess.

It's really not. It's a convoluted cookie-cutter build that teaches new players bad habits. "Take only these most powerful classes and only the most powerful levels of these classes to optimize yourself to the highest maximum you possibly can achieve!"
Why would you want to tell someone discovering the game without familiarity of the PNP the most min/maxed anti-RP build you can discover? Why sour him on actual gameplay and builds by pushing that drek right out the gate? Especially when it's explicitly not what he even asked for? And when he lamented not having good Dwarven weapon options, instead of helping him to see the wide variety that actually were there, you pitched three unrelated non-Dwarven endgame weapons you get at the last chapter.

*nosepinch*

Look, I didn't mean to get into this argument with you. You just have a particular... style that suits you very well but will never be my cup of tea. Maybe we can agree to disagree here. I'll pitch viable on-concept builds, you pitch min/maxed level dipping anti-RP builds. We can offer people different things. For all I know, he could very possibly prefers yours anyhow.