Eldritch Scion, don't get me wrong, the class is good. But I just find it tedious. I have to keep buffs on or else I get in first line and get screwed. I have to keep an eye on where I'm standing, if Valerie is actually tanking, If Amiri is not in the same shit as me, if my buffs are still on, etc.

I do like micromanaging casters, but when it comes to the melee group, it gets frustrating very fast with how many fights you can get in few hours.

Edit: That's why I'm thinking about something more straightforward. Maybe the Mad Dog build, but there you have to keep the pet buffed too... So the Fighter or Paladin came as first obvious picks.

Buffs are pretty essential in this game. You can clear out trash with just haste on most classes, but, especially in dungeons, you gotta keep your buffs up. what you are probably missing is extend rods. those help immensely with buff durations. Oleg sells those in bulk. Draconic Scion is one of the tankiest classes in the game and doesn't need much care. pretty much shield, haste and good hope combo is good enough for him in 90% of encounters.

Thing is enemy AB/AC is rather high. It's not realistic to skip buffing. what is realistic is reducing the tedium. levels make it more tolerable. And I can't stress enough how good extend rods are beginning to the end.

I should check those rods, it will save me a lot of time I suppose. I was planning to give him few levels of Dragon Disciple to see how it goes.

WoW!!!!

@InEffect: RESPECT.

This is my new favorite Thread for Pathfinder.

What would be your Vivisectionist: Build? Havent tried a "Killer-Class" before. :-)

Played Pala and Sylvian Sorc.

what do you mean by that? that i'm a noob ?? ;)

but seriously, so did you play the game at first on normal or challenging, and then hard?

I did hard because challenging is too easy to win. like BG. or other SSR. no strategy or challenge.
i takes forever, and i have very few hours to play a week. i don't want to become too immerssed as well.

Thx.

I also find the Inquisitor Class very interesting. Something new. Is it possible, to do a Dual Wield Spec with him?
Base Class or Tactical Leader? Or is he more of an ranged fighter?

What Draconic features and deity you choose when you went scaled fist monk and divine hunter paladin?

double-post. deleted.

if something is not mentioned it doesn't matter. Both don't give any tangible effects in this case

inquisitor doesn't have the AC needed and his damage boosts are not that impressive. and he doesn't have transformation. it is much better to count him as a half-support/half-2nd row fighter as he actually belongs there.

best inquisitor class is not doubt monster tactician, no questions asked. go pure class and a pole weapon. take conjuration focus and summoning feats. the rest is usual things everyone takes. oh, and animal domain ofc.

I'm not a huge believer in tactical leader. good teamwork feats you need 24/7. Bad ones don't matter. at the end of the day he could save you the trouble of seize the moment on everyone and give 1d6 extra damage. that's 3 feats. sounds good, but you are not exactly feat-starved on most builds. and even worse: that's an extra thing to click in combat. my verdict - meh.

inquisitor base class is fine. inq16/freebooter4 is smooth and pretty potent. see Jaetal build for that.

D/W can be done. theoretically. problem is you slap -2/-2 AB on a class that already has slow BAB progression. That's almost like trying to make wizard whack something with a staff. judgements would help a bit, but not THAT much. You will have a lot less d/w AB than an average fighter and that's not impressive to begin with.

I started on hard. it was too slow and had more reloads than I found tolerable. so I lowered it to challenging. now that I am used to the game hard goes as fast as challenging was at the beginning. I now know exactly how to debuff enemies and how to steam-roll.

in all honesty challenging is the most balanced experience this game has to offer. relatively easy trash mobs and occasional bosses you might have trouble with.

all hard really does is making you web everything. that's literally it. all game. with that it's challenging difficulty level again, but you have extra spells to cast.

with that in mind I should say some sort of transmuter is the king of higher difficulties. nothing mass debuffs like he does.

that is with story companions and shared exp. with shared exp off and custom companions hard is pretty easy.

Party composition

Some of this(or all of it) might seem self-evident to you. After all, this guide is meant for new players. This one assumes challenging difficulty and above.

Main party roles.

Tanks.
You need to stack as much AC on them as possible. No other form of damage mitigation works. It is important that tank is not just there to soak damage. Should double as a support or damage dealer(or both).

2nd row damage dealers.
2-handed guy. Anything that does not tank really doesn’t need AC if you play your cards right. Some damage mitigation is welcome(but is not mandatory), as he might have to off-tank sometimes. Can get away with DR instead of AC. Needs reach. Either through reach weapon or enlarge person. Those are the main reason why I take seize the moment on every melee I can. Doesn’t have to have additional roles covered.

Dedicated healers.
There is no way around it. You do need to repair damage somehow. There is nobody like channel-oriented cleric for this, but you might get away with Theurge for this one as long as you pack enough half-casters to fill the gaps. Remember: preventing damage is more cost-efficient that healing it. Should double as something, so he won’t be dead weight when there is nothing to heal.

Arcane casters
Your main source of buffs and control. Should double as several other roles to be worth it. Can be(and should be) mixed and matched across several characters. Theurges also count.

Bard
Best buffer in the game. Don’t even consider dropping a bard under any circumstances. Should bring more than buffs to the table. Be it damage or control.

Secondary roles.
With limited party size you would want to diversify your party with some other application, than their primary one.

Damage dealers.
Most classes are capable of contributing damage. What I mean by saying something doubles as a damage dealer is he/she dedicated some considerable effort towards that.

Controller.
Very important to have. Debuffing enemies hard or flat out removing them from combat can’t be overvalued.

Support.
Offers some buffs/debuffs and general utility. Things like trip, bull rush, dazzling display, fear effects, etc

Pet.
Automatically counts as an off-tank and secondary damage dealer. Does not count as tank/DD unless the owner has 3 levels of Huntsmaster and outflank.

Party needs:

-2 Tanks. One is not enough. If you ever get swarmed you need someone you can trust to hold the ground. One of your tanks can be a tad less armored than another. Do not count pet as as a tank, unless you have huntsmaster levels - all melees should have outflank.
-1 2nd row damage dealer. You need someone to put seize the moment to use. And discourage enemy movement.
-Dedicated Healer. Your guys will be hit sometimes. Due to misplay or just good enemy rolls. Debuffs are also a thing. Healer helps to fix the damage.
-Arcane Casters. You need to buff and control the battlefield. Damage from those comes in secondary.
-1 Bard. Unavoidable. You do need those buffs.

What would Balanced party look like examples(story companions with my builds):

MC Tank/DD
Valerie Tank/support
Linzy Buff/Control(+½ arcane caster)
Tristian Main healer
Amiri 2nd row DD
-open slot. Lets say: Jubilost DD/Control(+½ arcane/divine caster)
Healthy mix of damage and utility. We end up weak on control and still need another Haste source - Jubilost covers all that. Octavia could also work.

MC Tank/DD
Valerie Tank/support
Linzy Buff/Control(+½ arcane caster)
Harrim Control/Heal/Support(¾ Arcane+½ Divine)
Jaethal 2nd row DD/Heal/Support
-open slot Nok-Nok/Ekun DD
This party opts for dividing roles instead of facilitating them. Jaethal and Harrim will share the healing role. Harrim, Linzy and MC will take care of control and Buffs. Ends up lacking damage so we fill last slot with that.

MC Arcane Caster
Valerie Tank/Support
Reggie DD/Tank(+½ arcane caster)
Linzy Buff/Control(+½ arcane caster)
Tristian Main healer
-open slot. Amiri DD
Reggie is as close to a second tank as it gets with story companions. We don’t need 4 arcane casters, so we pick Tristian as a main healer. He will cover all the Healing needs, so Amiri DD is a logical last pick. If your MC can't control you should probably bite the bullet and skip 2nd row DD for Jubilost until your MC can fill the tank role or take Harrim+Jaethal combo and lack damage. This example shows how just one character not filling 2 roles can make you some troubles.

What those parties have in common? Party composition logic. What I do:
-Shape your party around your MC. Think what role(s) he/she can fill.
-Pick 2 tanks. That is set.
-We need a bard. Set.
-Pick up Primary Healer.
-We need 2-3 guys who can cast haste. Make sure of that.
-Pick up 2nd row DD
-Decide what is the weakest point of the party and plug that with the last pick.
-if you do not have all roles covered go back and decide who you can swap to fix it.

Important combinations:
Harrim+Jaethal=Primary healer+2nd row DD+Arcane Caster
Any Arcane Caster+Linzy=Haste needs covered
Linzy+Controller=Control needs filled.

Conclusions:
As one can deduce from the above, story companions put pressure on MC to become a party tank/DD. This is one of the reasons most of my MC builds are so concerned with AC. It is still doable with ranged MC, just will be a bit harder.
Keep extra attention to your party's resources. if you are going to rest with full spells - you need more healing or control. If you are going to rest with a lot of healing - you need more physical damage. Balance is key. Remember: use CC and damage spells at the start of the combat - it will bring your more good that way as you will win in action economy.

Will add more if something comes to mind

Hi InEffect.

The build you have suggested me, is it 20 Levels Alchemist or Vivisectionist?
Sorry, absolut no experience with this class. Where is the biggest difference between these two?
Bombs vs. Sneak Attack? Have not started yet, so i have not done anything wrong yet. :-)

And one other question:

a pure Magic Damage Class. A "Glass-canon". :-)
Would that be the standard Sorc with Arcane Bloodline?

it's vivisectionist. grenadiers build more or less build like my jubilost build.
about magic damage... yeah well if you expect to do a lot of damage magic is frankly not the best way around it. arcane sorc is good for CC, really, not for damage. and there is no point in sacrificing anything on MC. you can be a tank and a damage dealer no problem. for good caster with a twist check "sylvan sorc" or "what about dragons" builds. arcane bloodline is good on paper, but it won't break any records in terms of damage.

if I absolutely had to play arcane sorc I'd go for necromancy. Decent control there, and ok-ish damage.

problem with no-defense MC is there are points in the game when you have to fight some things 1 on 1. the other problem is if your MC dies you have to reload. If I wanted arcane sorc I'd probably look for a merc, not MC. After all, all arcane sorc needs is a bit of dex/con and max cha. that's it, so low-ish stats on a merc won't be a problem.

Hm...this is a pity. I like PureMagicDamageGlassCannon Chars. :-)

You suggest DD / Tank for MC.
So i will go the DD Route.^^ I´m still undecided which class. Have to read your evaluation again.


PS: Vote for sticky :-)