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BlueMajere1: I know you don't play much anymore, or do this, but do you have any thoughts on the viability/build of jaethal as a tank?
Not very. Only benefit would be that she can't "die". Sustaining her is rather hard and her alignment doesn't offer any easy outs to ramp AC. So, while it's technically possible to use her inqisitor levels for seize the moment or something, it's ultimately better to keep her somewhere in the second row. She still will get glorious opportunities to take oneshots instead of the party, but won't be such a hassle to keep alive. Also, her stat destribution kinda forces you to go into cleric if you want to make use of all her stats. Ecclesi or herald caller is debateable as both have merits. I prefer the latter, but converting channel into sacred bonus on an evil cleric is nice as well.

If you have to have it that way you would likely want something with decent AC ramp. With that in mind Vivisectionist 3 or 4 is nice, as usual... Arcaeologist2/DD4 won't be wasted either as it will give further AC ramp and mirror image that tanks have to have. So, Inq3/Arch2/DD4/V3 would be core build achievable by 12 with 8BAB to get to 16BAB by 20 you would obviously have to fill the rest with full bab classes, preferably something that would give more AC and maybe finishing V4 for an extra feat. I'd probably mostly abandon the damage prospects and went for Inq3/Arch2/DD4/V4/TSS5/Stalwart1 +1 whatever.
Another feasible option would be Inq3/Bard6/DD4/EK5+2(likely fighter for feats. Maybe 1 more bard for the song) not unlike valerie bard, but it will end up with a tad less AC, so idk about viability of that. That's generally the problem with jae tanking. She doesn't do anything better than Valerie would in the same role and will make you worry about sustaining her for most of the game.
Post edited September 02, 2019 by InEffect
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BlueMajere1: I know you don't play much anymore, or do this, but do you have any thoughts on the viability/build of jaethal as a tank?
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InEffect: Not very. Only benefit would be that she can't "die". Sustaining her is rather hard and her alignment doesn't offer any easy outs to ramp AC. So, while it's technically possible to use her inqisitor levels for seize the moment or something, it's ultimately better to keep her somewhere in the second row. She still will get glorious opportunities to take oneshots instead of the party, but won't be such a hassle to keep alive. Also, her stat destribution kinda forces you to go into cleric if you want to make use of all her stats. Ecclesi or herald caller is debateable as both have merits. I prefer the latter, but converting channel into sacred bonus on an evil cleric is nice as well.

If you have to have it that way you would likely want something with decent AC ramp. With that in mind Vivisectionist 3 or 4 is nice, as usual... Arcaeologist2/DD4 won't be wasted either as it will give further AC ramp and mirror image that tanks have to have. So, Inq3/Arch2/DD4/V3 would be core build achievable by 12 with 8BAB to get to 16BAB by 20 you would obviously have to fill the rest with full bab classes, preferably something that would give more AC and maybe finishing V4 for an extra feat. I'd probably mostly abandon the damage prospects and went for Inq3/Arch2/DD4/V4/TSS5/Stalwart1 +1 whatever.
Another feasible option would be Inq3/Bard6/DD4/EK5+2(likely fighter for feats. Maybe 1 more bard for the song) not unlike valerie bard, but it will end up with a tad less AC, so idk about viability of that. That's generally the problem with jae tanking. She doesn't do anything better than Valerie would in the same role and will make you worry about sustaining her for most of the game.
Her other problem is that she actually can die.
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InEffect: buffing pets on unfair is a waste of time. They are not reaching 70 AC and, most importantly, they don't have mirror image, so they would die even if they did. So, don't waste time and effort into buffing a pet and use them as a free fodder they are.

Saying your proposed build is bad is not an insult. It's the truth. Your action economy is bad, your damage output is bad and your idea about tanking is bad.

Let me put some things straight:
1. Action economy. You are almost always at a disadvantage, so wasting time on anything that doesn't take out things out of the play is bad. So, dazzling is ok on a few people, but you use it for shatter, debuff is just a bonus on top. With that in mind, Duration spells that force loads of checks are the way. Same goes for damage delers. Here come your 500+ DPR saints and vivisectionists(who also can tank for ages with AC/Invis/mirror). All soft-CC is useless for unfair, all single-save spells are mostly too. Lingering is not great for most of the game for that reason as well as it costs you actions in combat that could be used on something better. And when you actually get the chance to use lingering with greater effect... you don't really need it. By endgame you will have like 30 rounds of song(which you don't even need in half the fights). You will sooner run out of spells than out of songs.
2. Casting. Only decent way of attacking will is Arcane illusionist gnome. That thing at least reaches decent DC's and actually takes out things with it. That, and illusion does have useful spells, much unlike enchantment. Also, any prep you do to CC delays said CC. That's bad. Reality of casting on unfair is just ramping DC's high enough to blow through any saves the enemy might have. Conjuration has both reflex and fort, so it's an obvious choice. Also stinking cloud that is party-friendly and solves most trash encounters.
3. Tanking. To tank unfair you have to drop enemy chances to hit. By a lot. Even 5% is not good enough. 2.5% with displacement effect slapped on is not good enough either. Slap mirror on top and now we're talking. That drops the chances to 1.25%, which is acceptable. Anything with mirror is by default 2 times tankier than whatever without it. And this is why pets suck at it.
4. Damage. There is no point in half-assing it. Just have a few guys who can push 500+ damage a round and it will be fine.
5. Your time. IDK about you, but I like not wasting time. So, fights must be quick and light on resources. 90% of fights in the game look like: "buffed party casts haste and stinking cloud and wipes the floor with everything". No looting till you finish the floor/area or the shorter spells run out either. That ups your rest efficiency. On the topic of time - buffing pets is a waste of it. They are twice as likely to be one-shotted. It's bad investment. And even if you buff them the damage past act 1 in negligible. Sit em back instead and use them to plug holes for a few rounds and to prevent flanks. And when the enemy is hard-CC'd you can move them in. They might even hit something once in a while(for a pathetic damage, because pets are like that).
Also regarding time, the more you have to click - the slower you go. Another reason why Duration CC and heavy phys damage is the way.
6. Unfair in general is about hedging your bets. You don't rely on something that can fail - you use things that are guaranteed to work. So why use a pet that has 2.5%+ to be hit, when you can use literally any competent melee that has 1.25%? Why roll the dice with one-and-done spells, when you can use duration ones? Stack odds and you will rarely load(if at all).
You're playing unfair+ because you're not using all the tools at your disposal. I can see how that would happen if you're running six solo builds concurrently, but there are team dynamics that work well and happen to be more fun. I don't use Stinking Cloud since it exploits the borked implementarion of Delay Poison and don't use haste much until I get the amulet that extends it because it's round per level. I do use Bond before combat, start with lingering Dirge when I get it, make use of difficult terrain (not entangle or web, actuall difficult terrain) and keep Archon's Aura on with maxxed Evocation DCs on that toon.
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Bezhukov: You're playing unfair+ because you're not using all the tools at your disposal. I can see how that would happen if you're running six solo builds concurrently, but there are team dynamics that work well and happen to be more fun. I don't use Stinking Cloud since it exploits the borked implementarion of Delay Poison and don't use haste much until I get the amulet that extends it because it's round per level. I do use Bond before combat, start with lingering Dirge when I get it, make use of difficult terrain (not entangle or web, actuall difficult terrain) and keep Archon's Aura on with maxxed Evocation DCs on that toon.
There is no point in discussing personal playstyles. There are efficient things and not. Including efficient from a time perspective. If the fight takes 10 minutes because you have to micro everything to win - it's trouble.
What actually works is just stacking a bunch of numbers and powering through. There is not deep tactics involved. If you don't beat enemies numbers - you will lose. For unfair it's even more so. 2x damage means your action economy is twice as bad as before. That means you have to remove things from combat even faster. That means untouchable tanks, hard CC and buttloads of damage. There is not rocket science on how to achieve all that. And, most importantly, it's faster. Can you play in another fashion? Sure. More active abilities, less RTA's and it'd still be same-ish damage and same-ish in-game time, but real time spent will skyrocket, which is not efficient.
A few questions about the Sylvan Sorc build:

* What should my stats be if I take human? I have all DLC. I've gone with 7/18/13/10/7/19 but want to make sure it's optimal.
* What stats should I increase after adjusting the above?
* There's a third feat that can be taken at level 1 which messes up the entire level progression. Any chance of an update? I really like this build.
* What should my third skill be? I have free points.
Post edited September 14, 2019 by destroyermaker
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destroyermaker: * What should my stats be if I take human? I have all DLC. I've gone with 7/18/13/10/7/19 but want to make sure it's optimal.
The reason DLC matters is that Varnhold's Lot gives you an extremely useful for a full caster item which gives you odd numbered ability score modifier. So, for the good part of the game that 18 will be no better than 17 would be. Those 4 points can be used to increase Constitution up to 15 (or Wisdom to 10, though you Will would be ok anyway).

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destroyermaker: * What stats should I increase after adjusting the above?
Charisma, there's no other way.

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destroyermaker: * There's a third feat that can be taken at level 1 which messes up the entire level progression.
Why would a third feat mess up anything? As far as I can remember, most of the build feats don't depend on a level, so just take everything a couple of levels earlier. Possible choices for a new feat are Persuasive (if you take enough Perception) or Skill Focus (Persuasion) (if you don't take Perception), Elemental Focus (Fire), or Boon Companion (this one will matter more on lower difficulties and on lower levels, and should be taken on the first level).

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destroyermaker: * What should my third skill be? I have free points.
Depends on your party needs. Basically, each skill should be maxed out at least at one character in you party. Possible good choice for a main character is Trickery if you want to hoard XP on him. UMD is another option to consider, to use cleric wands and scrolls, if you aren't planning to run around accompanied by a cleric. Even with your Wisdom penalty, Perception is always a good choice, as to find a hidden objects each party member makes a roll. Or, alternatively, you could dump Intelligence, it's not like being barely able to read disqualifies you from ruling a kingdom.
Post edited September 16, 2019 by heliar
So I should play the DLC before I make the character if I want the best version of it? Is the build meant for a later playthrough? I'm confused on how to take advantage of it. I may only play through the game the once.

I don't mean that it's impossible to go forward with the build, just that now I have to figure out the exact progression myself, which I'd rather not. I've already went ahead with it as you described and it's working well fwiw. But still unsure it's optimal.

Anyway, thank you for the advice.
Post edited September 16, 2019 by destroyermaker
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destroyermaker: So I should play the DLC before I make the character if I want the best version of it? Is the build meant for a later playthrough? I'm confused on how to take advantage of it. I may only play through the game the once.
Varnhold's Lot events are happening mostly during Chapter II of the main campaign. So I would recommend first to play Chapters I-II of the main campaign (right after you deal with the Bloom), then take a pause on the main campaign and do DLC (you will be asked to load main campaign save, but its effect is cosmetic only, you will get your Baron instead of just a Baron in introduction scene). Finish DLC, and then continue with the main campaign. At one point in chapter 3 or 4 you will be asked to load DLC save, which will affect you walk-through in some way. So to fully experience how DLC affect the main campaign, you have to finish DLC, if I remember correctly, before the beginning of Chapter III.
You will find the item with your DLC character during DLC walkthrough, but it will become available to your baron during main campaign at one point after you load DLC save.

I don't know, however, what would happen if you won't select a DLC save at that point, and I don't know whether the item would be available in that case.
Post edited September 20, 2019 by heliar
I see. Thanks again.
was on vacation(again xD) heliar pretty much nailed it, don't even have anything to add there.
Odd phys stats on a cha caster are needed for an amulet that is -3phys/+2mental from varnhold DLC.
I'd say sometime between troll trouble and the end of the bloom is a good spot to do the DLC as you would have a better grasp at the systems by then. As a side note, difficulty curve is quite a bit higher in the DLC, so be warned. Another thing to note is that only thing that savegame selection at the start affects is the looks of the MC in one cutscene and the endstate of the DLC can be injected into as many main campaigns as you like, so you technically only need one good run of the DLC you are happy with(and that has gotten all the good stuff, ofc).
Post edited September 19, 2019 by InEffect
Great, thanks.

Another question: the merc 2 build for Varnhold doesn't let me take Crane Wing at level 7. What should I do instead for that level (and any others, if they should be altered)?
Post edited September 24, 2019 by destroyermaker
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destroyermaker: Great, thanks.

Another question: the merc 2 build for Varnhold doesn't let me take Crane Wing at level 7. What should I do instead for that level (and any others, if they should be altered)?
Check what you missed. Crane wing requires imp. unarmed, dodge, crane style and bab+5. the build qualifies for all of the above.
Post edited September 24, 2019 by InEffect
I'm playing with the idea to start a first go towards Unfair and I think about including a raycaster Wiz or Sorc/Vivi/AT. You do have a build like that up (AT sorc). Do you think that kind of character will manage on Unfair? Because I had a lot of trouble hitting anything with Octavia rays on Hard, so I imagine Unfair merc could have some difficulty too.

Also, would picking a Divination Wizard instead of a Sorc be okay? Less damage per Ray, less spells, but I imagine the rest of the party will like the aura a lot, and I get spell levels earlier.
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Libita: I'm playing with the idea to start a first go towards Unfair and I think about including a raycaster Wiz or Sorc/Vivi/AT. You do have a build like that up (AT sorc). Do you think that kind of character will manage on Unfair? Because I had a lot of trouble hitting anything with Octavia rays on Hard, so I imagine Unfair merc could have some difficulty too.

Also, would picking a Divination Wizard instead of a Sorc be okay? Less damage per Ray, less spells, but I imagine the rest of the party will like the aura a lot, and I get spell levels earlier.
eh... well... let's break a few things about unfair in general.

1. For unfair, at least if you go with party, you have to go melee tank with MC. There is some slack in what exactly you go for, but the fact that it's gonna be a)unarmored monk gish b)have mirror image c)STR-based two-handed build as you will need to push a whole lot of damage.

2. You will hire sylvan sorc merc first order of business or you are not getting far. You need that grease and a pet to trigger encounters.

3. You might want to hire proper cleric(being erastil community+animal) sometime soon-ish. Not very pressing and it's totally possible to do without, but you might want to do it, especially if you are new to the whole unfair degeneracy.

4. You will take Valerie and use her in a bard spec. Because mirror image.

5. You will need RTA blaster and jubi camping ability is awesome, so that's kinda set ass well.

That leaves you with 4 slots taken the rest you can do whatever with.

As to ray-casters there is true strike that you should use liberally, unless you want your rays missing all the time.

As to wizards.... main problem is they bring too little into the mix. You kinda want everyone to do more than one thing. And do them well. If I were to take wizard of any sort it'd likely be either savant or arcane bomber as those have stuff to do. Also no, wizards get spells at exactly the same speed, because they will want to take either Vivisectionist1+AT levels(V2 after lvl9 spells for cognatogen) or 2 grenadier levels for the same reason, but those would make bomber party-friendly. There was a savant here https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffect_builds_for_you/post214 looks ok-ish.

on the topic of diviner... Main problem would be to find divination spells to fill the slots. Guess one could extrend and/or heighten sense vitals, but that's too many sense vitals... I'd much rather go conjuration and would've dropped necro and enchantment. Or abjuration and enchantment. Facts are erastil community domain is all the AB/AC buff you will ever need for hard fights once he gets to level8.

Turned out a bit blunt, but it's true. I would encourage you to try and go whatever you think would work still. At least you would have a point of reference once you pick up sylvan sorc with grease and a good melee like saint vivisector.

Last thing I would advise to game the EXP system as it makes everything less of an eternal pain. go through A1 with val yourself, sylvan and tristuan not sharing exp and hog all the skill exp you can on MC too. turn on exp sharing before recruiting NPC's and turn it off again. You won't use any of them anyways, but it's a bit of exp for them for those kingdom stats. Around when you recruit Jubi leave ep sharing on forever.

Big early persuasion Exp payouts are if you insult the priest in A1 and pink horse encounter in tn the marshes late A2 (both around 35k unshared exp iirc).

Hope it helps.
Post edited September 25, 2019 by InEffect
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InEffect: eh... well... let's break a few things about unfair in general.

1. For unfair, at least if you go with party, you have to go melee tank with MC. There is some slack in what exactly you go for, but the fact that it's gonna be a)unarmored monk gish b)have mirror image c)STR-based two-handed build as you will need to push a whole lot of damage.

2. You will hire sylvan sorc merc first order of business or you are not getting far. You need that grease and a pet to trigger encounters.

3. You might want to hire proper cleric(being erastil community+animal) sometime soon-ish. Not very pressing and it's totally possible to do without, but you might want to do it, especially if you are new to the whole unfair degeneracy.

4. You will take Valerie and use her in a bard spec. Because mirror image.

5. You will need RTA blaster and jubi camping ability is awesome, so that's kinda set ass well.

That leaves you with 4 slots taken the rest you can do whatever with.

As to ray-casters there is true strike that you should use liberally, unless you want your rays missing all the time.

As to wizards.... main problem is they bring too little into the mix. You kinda want everyone to do more than one thing. And do them well. If I were to take wizard of any sort it'd likely be either savant or arcane bomber as those have stuff to do. Also no, wizards get spells at exactly the same speed, because they will want to take either Vivisectionist1+AT levels(V2 after lvl9 spells for cognatogen) or 2 grenadier levels for the same reason, but those would make bomber party-friendly. There was a savant here https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffect_builds_for_you/post214 looks ok-ish.

on the topic of diviner... Main problem would be to find divination spells to fill the gaps. I'd much rather go conjuration and would've dropped necro and enchantment. Or abjuration and enchantment. Facts are erastil community domain is all the AB/AC buff you will ever need for hard fights once he gets to level8.

Turned out a bit blunt, but it's true. I would encourage you to try and go whatever you think would work still. At least you would have a point of reference once you pick up sylvan sorc with grease and a good melee like saint vivisector.
I'm going for a mercs only party and this character would be one of the mercs, not the MC. But I also want to shake my playstyle up a bit and thus now have the problem to build stuff I'm less familiar with. So far the basic idea is:

1. Dragon Shifter.
2. Unarmed Vivisectionist (replaces the Sword Saint I had before).
3. Some kind of Bard for songs (replaces Sensei of last time).
4. Erastil Ecclesitheurge Animal/Community.
5. Conjuration Sylvan Sorcerer.
6. Raycaster (replaces Monster Tactician I had before). Divination speciality is meant to either buff the attack of my multi-hitters (1. and 2.) or lower the saves of enemies for the Sylvan Sorc (5.).

I have builds in mind for most of them, but I think going through 6 builds here is waaay too much to ask of you. Hence I tried to concentrate on one area where I am still very unsure.

Thing is, this party has no full BAB character at all. So I'm a bit nervous about hitting stuff. And the Raycaster looks like the biggest offender in that regard. On the other hand, that divination ability looks like it'd benefit the heavy-hitters within the group a lot.
Post edited September 25, 2019 by Libita