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InEffect: yep. She already has a god from inqisitor and Urgathoa only provides negative channel. On the bright side you get selective channel at 3 and can nuke stuff rather decently with it. Especially when you get +2d6 trinket.
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Xelran: Big big thanks. I'm sorry but I have to bore you with another question regarding the pet. Should I enable or disable any of its abilities? Power Attack/Fighting Defensively ?
disable both. AB is more damage than power attack and a bit of AC doesn't count for a lot. Pets are mostly early-game convenience and don't hold well into lategame, but multiattack early is good. And carry weight helps.
Post edited May 28, 2019 by InEffect
Small Feedback:

Absolutely loving this build so far. It's super fun and the pet is amazing. I even managed to clear Ratnook Hill in Act 1(Jaethal absolutely obliterated them with Channel Negative Energy). Granted this is only Challenging difficulty. I played the first act(never further) a few times so far with different builds but I could never really find something that I truly enjoy, until now.

My current group currently is MC(Sylvan Sorc), Valerie(Your normal build), Jaethal(Cleric) and Linzi(Your normal build as well).

My party size is only 4 at the moment as I'm not sure who else to take. Smilodon kinda acts as a second tank right now. Amiri really felt weak in previous tries, even with your Off-Tank build but I guess that's on me not drawing out her full potential.

Any idea which companion would be a good addition to this group or can I keep this party at 4?

Also a huge confusion for me seems to be buffs. For now I just buff myself and my pet with Magic Armor. I also give Smilodon, Valerie and Jaethal Heroics but I'm not even sure if this does anything right now. I'm also unsure which mutagen Valerie should use.

My last inquiry: Do you think I can turn up the difficulty to Hard or should I not do this until I understand the mechanics better?

Thank You so much again for all your help.
Post edited June 12, 2019 by Xelran
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Xelran: Small Feedback:

Absolutely loving this build so far. It's super fun and the pet is amazing. I even managed to clear Ratnook Hill in Act 1(Jaethal absolutely obliterated them with Channel Negative Energy). Granted this is only Challenging difficulty. I played the first act(never further) a few times so far with different builds but I could never really find something that I truly enjoy, until now.

My current group currently is MC(Sylvan Sorc), Valerie(Your normal build), Jaethal(Cleric) and Linzi(Your normal build as well).

My party size is only 4 at the moment as I'm not sure who else to take. Smilodon kinda acts as a second tank right now. Amiri really felt weak in previous tries, even with your Off-Tank build but I guess that's on me not drawing out her full potential.

Any idea which companion would be a good addition to this group or can I keep this party at 4?

Also a huge confusion for me seems to be buffs. For now I just buff myself and my pet with Magic Armor. I also give Smilodon, Valerie and Jaethal Heroics but I'm not even sure if this does anything right now. I'm also unsure which mutagen Valerie should use.

My last inquiry: Do you think I can turn up the difficulty to Hard or should I not do this until I understand the mechanics better?

Thank You so much again for all your help.
OC doesn't provide lots of options for tanks. Guess, Reggie is the next best thing available. Or just use summons to cover the flanks. Not that bad. Given you already has sylvan sorc you could add another level of unfairness to your party taking Jubilost. But going as 4 will likely be fine. Jubi also can give out shield spell to the pet, bumping the effectiveness.

Amiri is a gimped character no matter what. 20PB, Bad stat spread(worse her PnP spread even). Pretty irredeemable, all things considered.

Buffs... Good hope is a nice one instead of heroism once you get that. Keeping 1 resistance/protection for emergencies is nice.
All you need to know about buffing is only dodge AC stacks with itself. Also There is transformation Natural AC and regular natural AC. The former is available through different sorts of transformations, like dragonforms and frightful aspect. The latter is everything else. Pretty much only mandatory buffs would be good hope and haste. Mirror images and displacement allows you to live longer. A lot longer. Improved invis you get through sylvan as a SLA to attack flat-footed AC. It's nice for rays.
Apart from that quirk Just stack bonuses with different sources and you will be golden.

Val should use whatever mutagen that allows her to cap on AC, So pretty gear-dependent. If you cap on Dex bonus from gear alone - use STR mutagen. If not - go for Dex. Hitting stuff is not her forte anyways.

You can always try hard if you feel the game becomes too easy. Difficulties are pretty much a check on how much you can abuse the game and stack bonuses. Hard is not that hard in the context. With mass stinking clouds you should be able to roll most things regardless.
Post edited May 29, 2019 by InEffect
Thank you so much. I learned a lot from your post.

I want to optimize my party further and may bother you with some more question if this is okay.

Since you mentioned in your post that the Valerie Bard build isn't made for the highest difficulty I take it I'm stuck with Linzi? Or do you think any of the other companions could fill in this role?

I absoutely love the Jaethal Cleric build so I want to keep her in my party. She is so much fun to play and amusing from an RP perspective even despite her not being 100% optimal according to you. I plan to take her to Hard/Unfair as well is that okay?

I noticed that the pets are not enough as off-tanks after all for me. There are times where they just get slapped to oblivion in 2 seconds flat and sometimes they survive for a long time. It feels very random meanwhile Valerie was almost unkillable relatively early. I also seem to struggle when I get attacked from 2 sides for that reason. So I might just get a mercenary instead for the off-tank role since you seemed reluctant on recommending any of the companions for that position. Is there an off-tank build you would recommend to me from the ones you posted that works on the higher difficulties? If possible it would be nice if it didn't require much micro management.

I'm sorry if I'm bothering you too much with my questions. I'm just very excited with this game and I enjoy it a great deal. I want to improve more and more while getting a better grasp on the mechanics. I just wish that the game had an official respec instead of the mods which apparently can break stuff or remove feats. Then I could figure things out on my own and wouldn't have to bother you so much.
Post edited May 30, 2019 by Xelran
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Xelran: Thank you so much. I learned a lot from your post.

I want to optimize my party further and may bother you with some more question if this is okay.

Since you mentioned in your post that the Valerie Bard build isn't made for the highest difficulty I take it I'm stuck with Linzi? Or do you think any of the other companions could fill in this role?

I absoutely love the Jaethal Cleric build so I want to keep her in my party. She is so much fun to play and amusing from an RP perspective even despite her not being 100% optimal according to you. I plan to take her to Hard/Unfair as well is that okay?

I noticed that the pets are not enough as off-tanks after all for me. There are times where they just get slapped to oblivion in 2 seconds flat and sometimes they survive for a long time. It feels very random meanwhile Valerie was almost unkillable relatively early. I also seem to struggle when I get attacked from 2 sides for that reason. So I might just get a mercenary instead for the off-tank role since you seemed reluctant on recommending any of the companions for that position. Is there an off-tank build you would recommend to me from the ones you posted that works on the higher difficulties? If possible it would be nice if it didn't require much micro management.

I'm sorry if I'm bothering you too much with my questions. I'm just very excited with this game and I enjoy it a great deal. I want to improve more and more while getting a better grasp on the mechanics. I just wish that the game had an official respec instead of the mods which apparently can break stuff or remove feats. Then I could figure things out on my own and wouldn't have to bother you so much.
tank... Dex scion, Saint, Trip vivisectionist if we are talking top-tier material.
pets are awesome to soak the alpha. Especially for added dps/ehp early. Once you get stinking cloud it's all gucci.
Jaethatl does fine on unfair. So long as you never let her into melee. Although early unfair is a beast of it's own.
Do not fight in static position. Best bet is to kite the enemy back a bit. That lowers the chances of being backstabbed and allows to chokepoint enemies. Summons help to bog down enemies too.
Usually the reason something gets killed fast is failed initiative roll, so either open a fight with summons to let those soak the alpha strike or run like a bitch for the 1st round.
High-end tanks require at least some micro with buffs, at the least. Guess, trip Vivisectionist is the lest intensive to play of the lot, because he involves less combat decision-making. I generally do recommend picking a main tank MC like that if only for the reason of having 2 tanks being more convenient, especially if you are new. For unfair early levels are suffer no matter what and involve quite a bit of mechanics abuse. You really don't want any party members in melee on unfair if you can help it so it devolves into kiting everything in circles with a pet and true-striking them at range.
For a merc... I guess Dex scion would be the most doable. as it's the most Stat-relaxed of the three.
Post edited May 30, 2019 by InEffect
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InEffect: [...]
Oh wow, I didn't know that Unfair would devolve into just kiting mobs. I was more thinking about RNG just being unfair but I guess that's on top? Sounds like I'll be looking at Hard instead then. That means I can play your Valerie Bard build! So that's a yay then.

Thank you for the hint about initiative and positioning/pulling. I never took this into consideration.

I think you can ignore my build request then in the other thread if you recommend me going Tank. Unless there is an alchemist tank that can throw stuff too.

The plea about micro was only for a side character as I'd rather focus more on my main character if that makes sense but if I'm the MT/OT then I don't mind having more micro. So I guess it's back to Dex Scion after all? Oh and Stinking cloud was insane on Sylvan Sorc. I didn't think it would be this strong! Quite crazy.
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InEffect: [...]
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Xelran: Oh wow, I didn't know that Unfair would devolve into just kiting mobs. I was more thinking about RNG just being unfair but I guess that's on top? Sounds like I'll be looking at Hard instead then. That means I can play your Valerie Bard build! So that's a yay then.

Thank you for the hint about initiative and positioning/pulling. I never took this into consideration.

I think you can ignore my build request then in the other thread if you recommend me going Tank. Unless there is an alchemist tank that can throw stuff too.

The plea about micro was only for a side character as I'd rather focus more on my main character if that makes sense but if I'm the MT/OT then I don't mind having more micro. So I guess it's back to Dex Scion after all? Oh and Stinking cloud was insane on Sylvan Sorc. I didn't think it would be this strong! Quite crazy.
It's Unfair early-game for ye. Lots off buffs to mobs and not yet enough opportunities to mitigate that, apart from abusing the game mechanics. The later it goes - the more tolerable unfair becomes. In the endgame it doesn't differ too much from whatever else, given you have a sensible party.

There is a bunch of stuff you can do. I'd say on a micro scale it's Scion>Saint>Vivisectionist from highest to lowest.
There is also an option of playing Dex Saint. that would be lower on micro than scion and still pretty decent. Having spells is better than not having spells, all things considered. Buffing routine is not that bad once you gain some mass buffs like good hope and micro is actually pretty fun. Doesn't take much to make a habit of it, it's not starcraft, after all and it actually allows you to play faster than focusing on 1 character. when you consider all the time you need to spend reloading or resurrecting.
Post edited May 30, 2019 by InEffect
I liked Dex Scion because it seems to have some offensive range spells for "emergency" I guess?

I'm not sure if I could build a Dex Saint. Though I'm not sure what the difference is in the first place between STR and DEX Saint to be honest.
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Xelran: I liked Dex Scion because it seems to have some offensive range spells for "emergency" I guess?
Kinda. You nuke stuff to keep up the dps. And some touch attacks too.

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Xelran: I'm not sure if I could build a Dex Saint. Though I'm not sure what the difference is in the first place between STR and DEX Saint to be honest.
main difference would be taking slashing grace, that would cut the damage, but you won't have to worry about spell combat toggling anymore. On the bright side the thing has more AC and wouldn't be so dependent on high stats. Probably would also end up with a bit higher AC for a merc, as no way str saint merc would be able to get to 70AC
InEffect, do you think that virtually all Str. based melee builds should aim for some form of trip/bite stacking to increase DPS and gain extra attacks of opportunity? I'm thinking of your Saint Vivisector specifically. Might he not be stronger as SS17/Vivi 2/Monk 1 using either the Serpent Prince Fauchard for better damage than Lion's Claw or Mastery Fauchard in the end game?
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Rapsdjfff: InEffect, do you think that virtually all Str. based melee builds should aim for some form of trip/bite stacking to increase DPS and gain extra attacks of opportunity? I'm thinking of your Saint Vivisector specifically. Might he not be stronger as SS17/Vivi 2/Monk 1 using either the Serpent Prince Fauchard for better damage than Lion's Claw or Mastery Fauchard in the end game?
If I were to cut saint levels I'd sooner think of a way to ramp damage. Fauchard is no better than Falcata. Even if you do get a bit of damage from legendary it's not substantial(and not nearly as good as x4 lion's claw crits). So if you consider damage I'd sooner cut Saint levels to 15 and added more vivisectionist, cut human, went motherless and trip/bite. Something like saint15/M2/V3. I don't think it offers enough to cut the saint levels, though. V2 could add bite, but what for? Saint doesn't have spare feats for trip. It's far better to get another +1enchant and another arcana, imo
Post edited May 30, 2019 by InEffect
AHHHHHHHH I just can't deal with nameless non story characters in my group after all. Do you think that the Regongar build will be fine on hard as an off-tank?

Also will the bard Valerie build be just as sturdy as the normal one for hard? Or do I not need a bard with both Jubilost and Regongar as "buffer"? Also would I still use defensive fighting on her despite no crane?
Post edited May 31, 2019 by Xelran
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Xelran: AHHHHHHHH I just can't deal with nameless non story characters in my group after all. Do you think that the Regongar build will be fine on hard as an off-tank?

Also will the bard Valerie build be just as sturdy as the normal one for hard? Or do I not need a bard with both Jubilost and Regongar as "buffer"? Also would I still use defensive fighting on her despite no crane?
You kinda do need the song, if anything. And as far as max AC goes bard val should be fine on hard. And she has mirror images to cover for whatever she'd be lacking.
And for companion tanks... As I said, Reggie is the next best thing you can get. At least he has mirror images and does end up with ok AC eventually.
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InEffect: And for companion tanks... As I said, Reggie is the next best thing you can get. At least he has mirror images and does end up with ok AC eventually.
I'm sorry I just had to ask again because you made it sound as a so so alternative. I misunderstood you.

Also I'm still unsure if I Would still be using Fighting defensively on Valerie despite her Bard build not having crane feats?
Post edited May 31, 2019 by Xelran
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Xelran: Also I'm still unsure if I Would still be using Fighting defensively on Valerie despite her Bard build not having crane feats?
Depending on enemy AB. Also depends on how many enemies are nauseated or disabled otherwise. Her main Job is to not die. Everything else comes secondary.
Post edited May 31, 2019 by InEffect