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Roahin: The buffing is still casting, and the damaging spells are more reliable anyway. The higher you tune the difficulty, the less likely your physicals are to hit multiple times a round (if at all). The AoE always hits. Even at half damage, it always does a lot of damage and as opposed to that sword swing, is good for multiple targets. A Fireball saved down to 30 damage that hits 6 targets is still a single third level spell that was worth 180 damage.

Dragonkind spells don't come along until 6th+, which means you're not getting a lot of casts out of them and furthermore mean a huge chunk of the game is behind you.

Again, look at the raw data when you're playing the build without a bias against how you feel it SHOULD be performing. I guarantee you this build is out-damaging all your other ones by an enormous margin.
it might. I do like necro theurge better as it has more CC and more reliable dps.

Made this topic so we don't flood too much
Post edited March 06, 2019 by InEffect
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Sorry, thought I'd answered the last time you asked that and just noticed I hadn't. Yeah, they have it fixed. Not that it makes a big difference for Tristian. He picked Good as his primary domain and all of those spells are on the regular Cleric spell list as it is.

And I'm a fan of the Necro Theurge too, it just doesn't fit conceptually for Tristian. It does for Harrim, but since he took Heavy Armor Proficiency at level 1, it'd pain me to multiclass into something that prohibits him using his only feat.
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I really like your idea of turning Tristian into a magic missile machine gun, because as you said I very often ended up parking him in the middle casting his channels and that was it.

However, his resist poison, communal was incredibly useful in some quests; I had to restart my game because of kingdom reasons, and I wanted to know who amongst the other party members could pick up that spell - I'm not at all familiar with D&D in general and pathinfder in particular so I'm not sure which classes will get it and at which level...
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iirc just about every divine spellcasting class gets Delay Poison and it's communal version. Among arcanes, Bards and Alchemists do.

https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Bard_spells
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Alchemist_spells
Post edited March 07, 2019 by ithildur
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Masquerouge: However, his resist poison, communal was incredibly useful in some quests
Oh, I'm right there with you. Not ALL of my Tristian's spells are damaging, just most. When I know I'll be fighting some poison enemies, I'll drop a couple of 3rd level slots for it. Same with Death Ward, Remove Paralysis, etc. Then there are a few non-damaging spells I always like to take. Resist Energy and Protection from Energy Communal are great. It lets you get sloppy with your big AoE spells. Also, every Cleric should have a Breath of Life prepped.
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Roahin: Nah, Synthesis isn't in the game. Honestly, I was always felt that 3.X Mystic Theurge was too powerful a class from the get-go. The Pathfinder updates where you get to double-cast with Synthesis and stack spell libraries with Combined Spells just made it obnoxiously so.
I am just love u man, its kinda hard to build what u want from scratch if u got zero dnd knowledge. Thanks a lot for your effort and knowledge !
Roahin: I cannot thank you enough for your builds! I always, always play a game of this type through with the companions first if for no other reason than a thanks to the developers for creating them with voices and portraits and so on. Min/maxing can be fun (I used to do it all the time in Baldur's Gate) but I think your methodology here truly speaks to my heart - powerful, useful characters who are true to lor). In addition, your level-by-level builds really take the edge out of learning a new system. I've just come from POEII: Deadfire and, by the end of the game, I had a reasonable idea about builds,but I nevertheless feel that truly being able to 'build' characters for myself needs knowledge of items, tempo of the games, enemies, etc, which you cannot get except from playing it. Having a helping-hand for my first playthrough and is beyond helpful. You are so kind for putting in this effort so, sincerely, thank you so much!

I did have a question/request, if I may:

I'm currently working through your list and I think my party lineup so far is likely to be (and all using your builds):

Valerie - tank
Amiri - DD
Linzi - likely your offtank/buff build
Octavia - AT build
Tristian - theurge build

I may be wrong, but it seems this lineup will work fairly well in terms of alignment (I don't know what the effect would be game-wise to mix them but I think my main character's personality [mine I guess] would not like evil characters in a mostly good-aligned party). It has walls of meat on the front line, buffing, healing, aoe dmg, ST damage, and hopefully not too much crossover in terms of gear needing to go to more than a single character. I think skillwise it 'seems?' to cover most skill bases.

To that end (apologies for going on and on): I'm in the delicious space of my main character being allowed to be whatever I want, rather than needing to round out a clear shortcoming in my party - I think. I was wondering if you had any suggestions for MCs that were a) really fun, b) maybe a bit unusual. In Deadfire, for eg, I play a bleakwalker/assassin which kinda made no sense, but the fun of stealthing up and then unloading a massive alpha crit before stealthing and running away to reset was just too much fun. Over 100 hours in I still just loved it - the gun sound with the way enemies just popped was endlessly amusing is the most childlike way possible. Do you have any recommendations for silly/broken classes that are fun?

Also, you're awesome. Genuinely, thank you so much!
Post edited March 09, 2019 by Tygarus
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Hey, I appreciate all the kind words you guys are posting in the thread. I'm especially pleased to see that there's a market for lore-appropriate builds non min/maxed builds here. A lot of other sites I've tried peddling my builds on receive a far cooler reception.

Tygarus, those characters will give you an evenly balanced party with all the bases well taken care of. I'm not seeing much in the area of gear crossover either, so you should be just fine. As far as main character suggestions, I've deliberately shied away from making any of those. With Companion builds, I really only have 2-5 each that are both lore-appropriate and still strong enough to be effective on higher difficulties. With main character ideas, I have hundreds and they're all constantly being tweaked and overhauled as I try to eek one more bonus here, or make one slight lore change there.

For your party, you have an alignment majority on Chaos / Neutral and Good, so I assume that's where your MC is going. I can toss you a rough outline of the last three Chaotic/Neutral Good characters I played and feel free to let me know if any catch your eye?

First there's my Kellid Half-Orc Tharuk Bloodborne. He's a Chaotic Good Barbarian / Rogue build that uses the Orc-Double Axe (Half-Orc's get proficiency with it for free) and feats like Double Slice to stack his Strength and rage bonuses on top of his Sneak Attack. He largely takes Animal Totems, so he has tertiary bite attacks (also Sneak Attacks) and can pounce for full attacks. It's one of the higher and consistent non-caster damaging builds I've played through. I rather liked the idea of this semi-feral stalker predator exploding out of an ambush and attacking in a flurry, even gnashing his Orc tusks into the enemy before it falls. Despite his savagery, I had him respond largely as a good character, but naive with a focus on freedoms. So, when the tax question came up, he dropped all taxes. Whenever anyone came petitioning wanting to do something, he always allowed it. Made for a much more difficulty management part of the game.

The next one was a more common build that I'm sure most of us have experienced with some variation of at one point or another. Cuthbert Westbrook a Neutral Good Human Crusader of Erastil. We've all done the Cleric of Erastil build at some point. A Cleric with a bow and an Animal Companion and it works. I prefer Crusader for the access to Fighter feats like Weapon Specialization. I had it in my head that he was a local rural boy who was actually apprenticed under Jhod and sees the Cleric as his current mentor even as a Baron. So, he uses a Dog for an animal companion (statistically better than a wolf anyhow), and generally follows his lead in decision-making. Further, like Jhod, he prefers keeping the land undeveloped and taking care of the local populace first and foremost. I can't emphasize how effective the build is, by the way. You're in the back to fire off your Selective Channels whenever you need, but meanwhile, by the time you have Ekunadyo, Cuthbert is nearly arrow for arrow as effective as him, along with this Animal Companion up front.

The last one was a bit of a failed experiment. Grymwalld, a Neutral Good Gnome Feyspeaker. I had been wanting to make a character to romance Nyrissa and since Feyspeakers are Druids that bond with Sylvan creatures and Gnomes are from the Feywild, it was a conceptual match. I especially like Gnomes as Feyspeakers since Feyspeaker replace Wisdom with Charisma (which Gnomes get a bonus in) and add Enchantment/Illusion spells (that Gnomes also get a bonus in!) to their spell lists. So lore and concept-wise, I was all set! But buildwise? Eh. There's only so much you're really going to want to do with a Druid, and it usually starts and ends with Summoning Builds. Even if you want to create an Illusion/Enchantment build, the Feyspeaker doesn't get enough to make him comparable with just a regular Bard. Anyhow, I've found summoning builds in this game, ESPECIALLY on higher difficulties to just be massive under performers. Literally only good for tying up enemies, and if you've got a good tank or two with smart placement, that's never a necessity. I'm convinced there was a better build (that's still lore appropriate) for Grymwalld somewhere, but I haven't figured it out yet.
Roahin, thank you so much for your reply. I cannot overstate how awesome it is to be able to talk to someone about these massive decisions before a playthrough. I'm a teacher and so time is not my friend. Playing many hours only to have to restart often results in a game not getting played. Besides, I love the process of planning out and trying to create a 'perfect' playthrough. Having stories, lore, conceptually accurate characters and so on really just makes the whole process so much more enjoyable.

Your characters sound brilliant! I've never played an MC half-orc before, or as a companion come to it, which would make it very interesting, particularly as an MC. It's new ground for me certainly. My only reservation on it is that I've already got Amiri with Barb levels which means I'd miss out on other classes.

Grymwalld sounds brilliant and I was even toying with the idea of mentioning that I've quite literally never had a druid in my party in any RPG I've ever played (having a druid alt in WoW doesn't count). I didn't even have Tekehu in Deadfire. So any druid build would be immediately appealing. That said, you say he underperforms as a summoner. Do you think there's any flexibility to build a druid that does shapechangey things? I've never tried one but I did always kinda want to try (was it Cernd?) in BGII but never had the guts!

I love the idea of a crusader too - probably my favourite of the three. I've always been drawn to clerics because I sometimes really struggle with moral choices in RPGs. I can agonise for hours over seemingly trivial decisions because I don't know how I feel personally and I tend to go look up the consequences and see which one has the result I can best live with (somewhat blunting the tension of having to make the decision, I know). With clerics, I think the deity's personality makes it easier to make sensible lore-related decisions which is appealing.

Having been reading for a few hours, I'd be drawn to a Paladin (an always go-to for me as I tend to be fairly one-dimensional in my morality as Lawful Good). That said, your builds and posts really make me want to play a lore applicable run and I wonder if a pally is not imperfectly suited to the group composition as it stands. That said, my MC (I assume) runs the kingdom and I think a paladin could potentially make a good ruler. I had an idea to make a character like Jan (BGII) who was an amusing gnome who liked bombs and things and run him as an alchemist, but I don't know if I'd want him to run my kingdom kind of thing - maybe a bit volatile :D

I've also never played a monk.

Basically, if you haven't loss all patience with me yet, do you have any cool builds in your style for:

- Cuthbert, the crusader?
- Druid McDruidface, the Shapechanger
- Sir Noble of Nobleness, the Paladin
- His holiness, the Dalai Llama (named for his love of llamas), the monk
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Roahin: Hey, I appreciate all the kind words you guys are posting in the thread. I'm especially pleased to see that there's a market for lore-appropriate builds non min/maxed builds here. A lot of other sites I've tried peddling my builds on receive a far cooler reception.
I'll be honest, when I saw the lore-friendly requirement I immediately bookmarked the thread. I'm a bit overwhelmed by all of the options this game offers for a single character let alone your entire squad. Definitely looking forward to builds for the other characters (Especially Kaessi) as I'm generally more interested in the 'how to make a custom portrait' part of these RPG's.

So seeing lore friendly builds as opposed to '+12 Hackmaster of Omega-poweredness with complete disregard for character personalities'? Sign me the hell up. :)
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A few quick questions about the game if u don't mind , a lot of this builds ended up at lvl 20, but u can't reach that with shared exp so better to disable it or its fine ? And do u absolutely need cleric in party to end the game on hard or higher difficulty. thanks.
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Roahin, do you think it would be ok for us to contact you with questions? You seem incredibly knowledgable and have the gaming philosophy to which I aspire :)
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I just discovered this thread, and want to join the others and say that this is awesome, and I very much look forward to seeing more builds from you. Too many people just focus on 'what's the BEST', and ignore everything else - and for me, that just makes the game boring. Your ideas, on the other hand, are a lot more interesting, and I will absolutely be borrowing some of these for my next playthrough.
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Roahin: Hey, I appreciate all the kind words you guys are posting in the thread. I'm especially pleased to see that there's a market for lore-appropriate builds non min/maxed builds here. A lot of other sites I've tried peddling my builds on receive a far cooler reception.

Tygarus, those characters will give you an evenly balanced party with all the bases well taken care of. I'm not seeing much in the area of gear crossover either, so you should be just fine. As far as main character suggestions, I've deliberately shied away from making any of those. With Companion builds, I really only have 2-5 each that are both lore-appropriate and still strong enough to be effective on higher difficulties. With main character ideas, I have hundreds and they're all constantly being tweaked and overhauled as I try to eek one more bonus here, or make one slight lore change there.

For your party, you have an alignment majority on Chaos / Neutral and Good, so I assume that's where your MC is going. I can toss you a rough outline of the last three Chaotic/Neutral Good characters I played and feel free to let me know if any catch your eye?

First there's my Kellid Half-Orc Tharuk Bloodborne. He's a Chaotic Good Barbarian / Rogue build that uses the Orc-Double Axe (Half-Orc's get proficiency with it for free) and feats like Double Slice to stack his Strength and rage bonuses on top of his Sneak Attack. He largely takes Animal Totems, so he has tertiary bite attacks (also Sneak Attacks) and can pounce for full attacks. It's one of the higher and consistent non-caster damaging builds I've played through. I rather liked the idea of this semi-feral stalker predator exploding out of an ambush and attacking in a flurry, even gnashing his Orc tusks into the enemy before it falls. Despite his savagery, I had him respond largely as a good character, but naive with a focus on freedoms. So, when the tax question came up, he dropped all taxes. Whenever anyone came petitioning wanting to do something, he always allowed it. Made for a much more difficulty management part of the game.

The next one was a more common build that I'm sure most of us have experienced with some variation of at one point or another. Cuthbert Westbrook a Neutral Good Human Crusader of Erastil. We've all done the Cleric of Erastil build at some point. A Cleric with a bow and an Animal Companion and it works. I prefer Crusader for the access to Fighter feats like Weapon Specialization. I had it in my head that he was a local rural boy who was actually apprenticed under Jhod and sees the Cleric as his current mentor even as a Baron. So, he uses a Dog for an animal companion (statistically better than a wolf anyhow), and generally follows his lead in decision-making. Further, like Jhod, he prefers keeping the land undeveloped and taking care of the local populace first and foremost. I can't emphasize how effective the build is, by the way. You're in the back to fire off your Selective Channels whenever you need, but meanwhile, by the time you have Ekunadyo, Cuthbert is nearly arrow for arrow as effective as him, along with this Animal Companion up front.

The last one was a bit of a failed experiment. Grymwalld, a Neutral Good Gnome Feyspeaker. I had been wanting to make a character to romance Nyrissa and since Feyspeakers are Druids that bond with Sylvan creatures and Gnomes are from the Feywild, it was a conceptual match. I especially like Gnomes as Feyspeakers since Feyspeaker replace Wisdom with Charisma (which Gnomes get a bonus in) and add Enchantment/Illusion spells (that Gnomes also get a bonus in!) to their spell lists. So lore and concept-wise, I was all set! But buildwise? Eh. There's only so much you're really going to want to do with a Druid, and it usually starts and ends with Summoning Builds. Even if you want to create an Illusion/Enchantment build, the Feyspeaker doesn't get enough to make him comparable with just a regular Bard. Anyhow, I've found summoning builds in this game, ESPECIALLY on higher difficulties to just be massive under performers. Literally only good for tying up enemies, and if you've got a good tank or two with smart placement, that's never a necessity. I'm convinced there was a better build (that's still lore appropriate) for Grymwalld somewhere, but I haven't figured it out yet.
Hi, I was wondering if you had a detailed build for Cuthbert Westbrook. I like the idea but am having troubles understanding how to level it up
Hello Roahin, first of all allow me to add my voice to the general consensus of appreciation toward you for these builds. Like many others this is my first brush with the Pathfinder system. I always strive to maintain a character's identity in any game when figuring out how to build them, so this thread has proven invaluable to me. Now on to my inquiry:

I have just acquired the DLC companion(s) Kaessi. However, from what I can tell with my fledgling understanding of the game and what others (such as InEffect*) have determined, their setup seems particularly suboptimal for the playstyles that would one would expect of their personalities. Moreover, given the multiple restrictive and defining choices you need to make between the likes of elements, composite blasts, infusions and wild talent lines, as well as the preference of avoiding major overlap (where it can be avoided) between the final builds, I find myself hesitant to commit to a direction.

Would it be possible for you to draw up a thematically appropriate build for each of them? I'd consider Kalikke any combination of a healer/tank/heavy artillery sort of character (focusing on a single role would do just as well). Kanerah has much more wiggle room, given that I could see her as both pragmatic (self-preserving nature) and fiery (forgive me for the pun but I honestly think it the most fitting descriptor for that aspect of her personality). So anything between skirmisher/caster/ tank/skill monkey/duelist and the list goes on. The only thing I'd struggle to conceive her as would be a healer, unless it were paired with a role to offset it properly. Range does not matter as both concepts would fit equally well anywhere on that particular axis. I'd be perfectly happy to accept roles I haven't considered provided they make sense.

I realise that asking for essentially two functional builds which will fulfill several parameters and are set on (unless I'm mistaken about this part) particularly shaky foundations is quite burdensome, and I completely understand if you simply do not feel like tussling with such an undertaking. Regardless, I thank you again for all of your invaluable contributions so far. Not only am I getting great mileage out of the various builds you've provided whilst preserving the NPC's identity, but I'm also becoming much more familiar with the system's mechanics (this appreciation also extends to InEffect and his matter of fact approach to appraising the classes within the game).

Edit: It might be worth mentioning that I'm playing at a custom difficulty set between Challenging and Unfair. Additionally, whilst I've refrained from doing so for anyone else so far, I'd be willing to mod their stats slightly if the characters are unsalvageable otherwise or if it would allow for a more appropriate/interesting concept. I do not want to fiddle with characters in this manner as a matter of course. So long however as it is not minmaxing, but something on the level of switching around Kanerah's Intelligence and Dexterity (based off of InEffect's assessment) or exchanging a couple of feats, it would not bother me.

*I appreciate his building methods as a powergamer but do not find them fit for my purposes in a non competitive(pvp) game such as this one
Post edited March 31, 2019 by Menrel