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For making big worlds, procedural generation is great. But you still need some hand crafted content. I don't think anyone has got the balance quite right yet.

The way Everquest Next planned to use it sounded good. They had cities etc where the story takes place, but everything in between is procedural. So you end up with a gigantic world to explore alongside the hand crafted stuff.
Post edited August 20, 2016 by NasherUK
No Mans Sky really is procedural generation at it's best. well that and don't Starve. It really is some immersive stuff and there are times when you really can't tell that the environment was procedural.

HOWEVER! nothing will ever beat a hand crafted world for atmosphere and depth. One example of this is System Shock 2 where everything feels deliberate in design. Another prime example is Witcher 3. Everything in that game is so delectly crafted like a sculpture some artist worked tirelessly getting all the details just right.
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Magmarock: HOWEVER! nothing will ever beat a hand crafted world for atmosphere and depth. One example of this is System Shock 2 where everything feels deliberate in design. Another prime example is Witcher 3. Everything in that game is so delectly crafted like a sculpture some artist worked tirelessly getting all the details just right.
Actually, a lot of elements in a digital work will be assisted by various constraints, pre-made shapes, and so on. To the point where arguably the rules within the digital world will decide what should be there more than the artist.

Imagine a slope. It's a hill, it has various elements, it should be ran down with a snowboard. You should get a particular speed if possible, you should be able to jump somewhere, it should be possible to arrive at the particular trick-sites through various routes, the weighting graphs should ensure that you can reach a specific number of them, etc. etc. In the same way, you obviously know the constraints of the controls for the runner, because they are programmed to be within a set of angles.

If you knew those rules on beforehand, you might get only a few possibilities that are viable, out of all the random options you might have had. So depending on how well the simulation works, or how much time you spent on it, it's not necessarily an artist that placed the elements in the slope. Instead they were the ones who decided, within the viable configurations, which one should be polished up.

In the same way, Witcher 3 has a lot of hand-made transitions spread out in the world, and they are all very well made, I'm not going to say anything else. The hill with the windmill over the farmland (where you fight the Griffin) is very obviously hand-made in the sense that this is designed by someone who imagines a landscape, draws it, and then have other artists fill in elements to make the hill look real.

But a lot of the forests and marshland are at most restricted by a heighmap someone loosely decided on from an overhead map. Where the objects in that space has been populated by an algorithm. If you ever travelled down in the right hand corner of the map, where nothing really happens, you can see probably the baseline for the algorithm, where all the trees suddenly seem meted out and placed based on location, height (loosely speaking there's a tree-line in W3). You can be pretty sure that a lot of forest paths are weighted in the same way - they follow an outline, but then deviate based on how steep and how curved they can be. And this is likely what they've started with when they made the rest by hand.

Same thing in a lot of less spectacular games with different procedural elements from the artist's point of view. The model of the soldier in COD wears a helmet. Another one wears a clown-hat. Both are the same model, essentially, and the hats are created towards the same constraints on beforehand. Before they are switched out based on user-preference. But the artist made each of the hats inside the constraints given by the model's head restraints, or have them linked to specific dimensions, so the hats will always fit.

So the question isn't about "hand-made vs procedural". It's about how deep you think it's viable to go when using an algorithm to decide what the game-world should look like. And how much of this can be done in real-time.

...unless we're talking about Gothic, where you can literally feel the programmer's boredom as the scripts play out. But even then you can't plan everything.

So from one point of view, it's just a question of finding out at what level you have to take over for the simulation. When an AI is actually assisting you, vs., when it stupidly takes over and drives you down a dead end. Same concept.

Anyway. So having an algorithm to assist you isn't a new concept (except to the people making Gothic). And having an algorithm decide on how to compose the world in layers, given particular rules, also isn't new. But doing it from the top-level, and then having a fixed outcome downwards based on the initial conditions - that's new.

Normally you'd have individual routines running on the different layers, no? So what's deciding the random elements in a specific place is really exactly as random as when the routine is run in a different spot. Building something from the ground up as well, that's always someone's favorite - a recursive algorithm always depending on the initial "seed".

But what if you decide on new constraints as you subdivide downwards instead? It's extremely interesting stuff that's very interesting to watch in practice. Because it means that you could for example design something on the high-level, and use an algorithm to put all the lines together on the low-level.

And better yet - do it in real-time, like in NMS :D I mean, this has to be impressive, even if you're the kind of person who likes Gothic, right?
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nipsen: ...
Completely off-topic, but I just figured out how to read your posts - you have to go from bottom up. Then you get a summary of your thoughts and, later, detailed description of how you arrived to your conclusions. It's a bloody mess going from top to bottom :-P
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kalron: Excellent point, however there are plenty games that are hand-made that I just keep coming back to, Gothic was just one. Super Metriod, The Legend of Zelda, Oblivion, Dark Souls...I could go on and on. They are like returning to your hometown, a pleasure to revisit and explore again.
Oh I'm not saying hand-crafted games aren't replayable, not at all. In fact, when procedurally generated games lack content, you'll feel like exploring the same place over and over, just with assets thrown about differently, which is not really that satisfying.
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kalron: Yep, I like that one definitely. @Fenixp mentioned Starbound, I haven't played it yet but I have had my eye on it. Might give it a go now.
I bought it yesterday and have been playing it for like 8 hours. This is ridiculous, I don't have that much time for games!
Post edited August 20, 2016 by Fenixp
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kalron: I wonder what can be done to improve procedural world building. Creative programming? Quantum Computing?
Build this procedural world, but limit it to just a few systems. And then:

get a story teller to fill the empty space with a captivating plot.
I mean, what we see in NMS is scenery, nothing more. OK, you can counteract with some "inhabitants", but this only leads to what? Nothing but an endless queue of always the same encounters. Mindless.

Procedural world building is only the start of what can be made by completing the scenery with a complex background story.
But, this would need a few creative persons, not technicians only.
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Fenixp: Completely off-topic, but I just figured out how to read your posts - you have to go from bottom up. Then you get a summary of your thoughts and, later, detailed description of how you arrived to your conclusions. It's a bloody mess going from top to bottom :-P
I've been found out! Curses.

But yeah, spillover from group-lectures. Initial framework is set. Thoughts leading towards the conclusion at the time, adjusted a little bit, then summary and conclusion as arrived at. Now go back and find out if the reasoning was sound or if it gave useful context, or if the reasoning coincided with your own thoughts.

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kalron: I wonder what can be done to improve procedural world building. Creative programming? Quantum Computing?
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zerebrush: Build this procedural world, but limit it to just a few systems. And then:

get a story teller to fill the empty space with a captivating plot.
(...)
But, this would need a few creative persons, not technicians only.
....pretty sure each system could contain it's own little story. Or that you could insert one story in any of the systems. Given some starting conditions that would fit with the starsystem composition, things like that.

But then again, most computer-game writing is actually done completely disconnected from all of the gameplay mechanics, the locations, and often the art as well. So not entirely sure if you would get those "creative writers" to join a project like that...
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Magmarock: HOWEVER! nothing will ever beat a hand crafted world for atmosphere and depth. One example of this is System Shock 2 where everything feels deliberate in design. Another prime example is Witcher 3. Everything in that game is so delectly crafted like a sculpture some artist worked tirelessly getting all the details just right.
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nipsen: Actually, a lot of elements in a digital work will be assisted by various constraints, pre-made shapes, and so on. To the point where arguably the rules within the digital world will decide what should be there more than the artist.

Imagine a slope. It's a hill, it has various elements, it should be ran down with a snowboard. You should get a particular speed if possible, you should be able to jump somewhere, it should be possible to arrive at the particular trick-sites through various routes, the weighting graphs should ensure that you can reach a specific number of them, etc. etc. In the same way, you obviously know the constraints of the controls for the runner, because they are programmed to be within a set of angles.

If you knew those rules on beforehand, you might get only a few possibilities that are viable, out of all the random options you might have had. So depending on how well the simulation works, or how much time you spent on it, it's not necessarily an artist that placed the elements in the slope. Instead they were the ones who decided, within the viable configurations, which one should be polished up.

In the same way, Witcher 3 has a lot of hand-made transitions spread out in the world, and they are all very well made, I'm not going to say anything else. The hill with the windmill over the farmland (where you fight the Griffin) is very obviously hand-made in the sense that this is designed by someone who imagines a landscape, draws it, and then have other artists fill in elements to make the hill look real.

But a lot of the forests and marshland are at most restricted by a heighmap someone loosely decided on from an overhead map. Where the objects in that space has been populated by an algorithm. If you ever travelled down in the right hand corner of the map, where nothing really happens, you can see probably the baseline for the algorithm, where all the trees suddenly seem meted out and placed based on location, height (loosely speaking there's a tree-line in W3). You can be pretty sure that a lot of forest paths are weighted in the same way - they follow an outline, but then deviate based on how steep and how curved they can be. And this is likely what they've started with when they made the rest by hand.

Same thing in a lot of less spectacular games with different procedural elements from the artist's point of view. The model of the soldier in COD wears a helmet. Another one wears a clown-hat. Both are the same model, essentially, and the hats are created towards the same constraints on beforehand. Before they are switched out based on user-preference. But the artist made each of the hats inside the constraints given by the model's head restraints, or have them linked to specific dimensions, so the hats will always fit.

So the question isn't about "hand-made vs procedural". It's about how deep you think it's viable to go when using an algorithm to decide what the game-world should look like. And how much of this can be done in real-time.

...unless we're talking about Gothic, where you can literally feel the programmer's boredom as the scripts play out. But even then you can't plan everything.

So from one point of view, it's just a question of finding out at what level you have to take over for the simulation. When an AI is actually assisting you, vs., when it stupidly takes over and drives you down a dead end. Same concept.

Anyway. So having an algorithm to assist you isn't a new concept (except to the people making Gothic). And having an algorithm decide on how to compose the world in layers, given particular rules, also isn't new. But doing it from the top-level, and then having a fixed outcome downwards based on the initial conditions - that's new.

Normally you'd have individual routines running on the different layers, no? So what's deciding the random elements in a specific place is really exactly as random as when the routine is run in a different spot. Building something from the ground up as well, that's always someone's favorite - a recursive algorithm always depending on the initial "seed".

But what if you decide on new constraints as you subdivide downwards instead? It's extremely interesting stuff that's very interesting to watch in practice. Because it means that you could for example design something on the high-level, and use an algorithm to put all the lines together on the low-level.

And better yet - do it in real-time, like in NMS :D I mean, this has to be impressive, even if you're the kind of person who likes Gothic, right?
Sorry mate TLDR could you rewrite a shorter post?
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Magmarock: Sorry mate TLDR could you rewrite a shorter post?
Yes?

...oh, wait, you mean so it still has the same meaning - just without the text explaining the reasoning behind it, and why it makes sense? Probably not.
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Magmarock: >>>>. Another prime example is Witcher 3. Everything in that game is so delectly crafted like a sculpture some artist worked tirelessly getting all the details just right.
They had top notch artists, and lots of them.
But, without the plot lines, the story part, all of these nifty pictures would have been for naught.

Honestly, W3 is the one game that is not out to dazzle the player with visuals only - they understood that textures and meshes only can get so far. The rest is good old story telling.
But not all games are there for story telling, there are also games where the story comes from the players.
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Magmarock: Sorry mate TLDR could you rewrite a shorter post?
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nipsen: Yes?

...oh, wait, you mean so it still has the same meaning - just without the text explaining the reasoning behind it, and why it makes sense? Probably not.
I'm sure you can if you try, because I'm not reading all of that.
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Blizado: But not all games are there for story telling, there are also games where the story comes from the players.
EXACTLY and that`s why I like and how I play this. I am the story in my world.
There really is no need for the "versus" in the OP. These can just get along. It`s a different approach, requiring a different mindset. You`ll never be able to compare Gothic/Witcher/etc and a game like NMS using the same yardstick.

I enjoy both styles, but prefer the procedural one. It just allows for imagination to soar, whereas in static games you`re bound to some devs` pre-written path. Some people will always prefer the latter, and it`s fine, but absolutely no need to start huge wars about it - something that was a big part of NMS pre and post launch madness (not including the OP here who`s refreshingly fair in his post).

And yes, while it`s becoming a boring cliche, games like NMS are "story generators". I didn`t think twice before saying "no thank you" to the Atlas and the storyline. Maybe, one day, but not soon.

And so, procgen doesn`t need to be "improved" at least not in the sense that I think OP suggests. It`s the other way around, you need to change your approach to the game and appreciate the wonders of RNG. The incredible vistas of NMS are already proof enough for me, but it`s not just the visuals itself, but the "feeling" of freedom: in a random world you`ll never know what to expect around another corner. In a static game, only the first time, and anyway it`s all fairly predictable, given we have been hammering the same tropes for decades now.

Sure, the usual suspects will harp on about "the same crap everywhere", but hey, why suffer and play this game then?
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dexterward: There really is no need for the "versus" in the OP. These can just get along. It`s a different approach, requiring a different mindset. You`ll never be able to compare Gothic/Witcher/etc and a game like NMS using the same yardstick.

I enjoy both styles, but prefer the procedural one. It just allows for imagination to soar, whereas in static games you`re bound to some devs` pre-written path. Some people will always prefer the latter, and it`s fine, but absolutely no need to start huge wars about it - something that was a big part of NMS pre and post launch madness (not including the OP here who`s refreshingly fair in his post).

And yes, while it`s becoming a boring cliche, games like NMS are "story generators". I didn`t think twice before saying "no thank you" to the Atlas and the storyline. Maybe, one day, but not soon.

And so, procgen doesn`t need to be "improved" at least not in the sense that I think OP suggests. It`s the other way around, you need to change your approach to the game and appreciate the wonders of RNG. The incredible vistas of NMS are already proof enough for me, but it`s not just the visuals itself, but the "feeling" of freedom: in a random world you`ll never know what to expect around another corner. In a static game, only the first time, and anyway it`s all fairly predictable, given we have been hammering the same tropes for decades now.

Sure, the usual suspects will harp on about "the same crap everywhere", but hey, why suffer and play this game then?
Yep. I love just standing on a hill and looking at a distant alien landscape that looks real and like it really could exist, knowing only I have likely seen it and thinking, `Wow!`
Post edited August 21, 2016 by Socratatus
You missed my point entirely. You are thinking that I am wanting a "story" generated for me, but I was specifically talking about the world build in games like Gothic II and how it becomes a character in it's own right. What I asked was how a procedural world, or universe in NMS case, can have that same feel. Because right now, it doesn't, but it can be "improved". There are many upon many different generated worlds, but after awhile you can start to see what drives the generation. Whereas with Gothic, every tree is placed by hand, crafted to fit the story being told, creating the world that is Gothic. These two games are totally comparable, because in the end they are both about exploration, regardless of the size of the world or universe you can explore.

Also, I'm not re-starting the hate train, as obviously stated in my replies in this thread. This is purely a discussion about the two and how they can become one. If you read some of the replies you would understand that, there are some highly intelligent concepts put forth that could inspire someone to push the genera further. Please reread the thread again before making another comment and insulting my original post. This is a discussion thread in the end, and I'm discussing possibilities for the future, not trolling or rehashing some stupid hyped "it's good/it sucks" mentality.

BTW, I'm about 30 hrs into the game and loving it...so no hate here.