Interesting, I'm not up to HotU yet; though essentially I'm running an old Baldur's Gate 2-type build where everything's stacked into single weapon use plus the backstab modifier. The nice thing is that NWN is forgiving enough to allow small shield use, and that plus tumble gives me enough AC not to be just a one-hit wonder.

There are also no weapon restrictions on sneak attacks in NWN. You can sneak attack with a greatsword if you want. Really opens up what you can do with the Rogue.

To be fair, in Baldur's Gate you could multi-class thief and fighter or dual-class fighter to thief and still use shields (pure thieves can also use bucklers), so that after a backstab you could stand your ground and continuing meleeing the others around you (assuming you didn't just quaff another invisibility potion and backstab the next, rinse repeat ;).

But yeah, the D&D sneak attack is more versatile than the AD&D backstab... you can wield what are traditionally non-thief weapons and you can inflict ranged sneak attacks which is very cool... but, what I like about backstab is the burst damage which is much more potent and generally kills the victim outright with a single stroke (more like an assassin). Then you had the actual assassin prestige class, Kensai/thief dual-class, mislead and shapeshifting backstabbers in BG2, which were just crazy! :P

Still, I do prefer sneak attack overall.

Problem is that the Daze is effectively worthless -- anything with low enough Will AND without Mind Spell Immunity is going to die very easily anyway. Perhaps not in Undermountain, sure, but once you're in Chapter 2 with a souped up weapon? Oh yes.

Well, quite a few of the "main" enemies in HotU have AC in the 40-50 range in Chapter 3 at least. So let's see. A level, oh, 26 Fighter starting with 16 strength would have...

23 BAB
6 strength from leveling
2 strength from Great Strength II
4 AB from Weapon Focus/Epic Weapon Focus/Epic Prowess
12 strength from gear
10 AB from weapon

So 23 (BAB) + 13 (strength) + 4 (feats) + 10 (weapon) = 50/45/40/35/50 attack schedule. Against a 45 AC enemy (which is what a certain Minotaur using a 2H axe has when buffed with Mass Haste) that's 4.2 hits per round.

If we switch to dual-wielding with light weapons, we get 48/43/38/33/48/43/50, or 5.9 hits per round.

Dual-wielding Katanas gives 46/41/36/31/46/41/50, or 5.5 hits per round, a 7%ish damage loss from hits, at least. On the flip side, since we're not worried about really optimizing our weapons, let's assume we're not worried about optimizing our character and subtract 5 AB overall (could be anything -- less BAB from rogue levels, less base strength, less strength from gear, missing one or more AB feats, not a +10 weapon, less actual levels (26 is near the top of what you hit without farming infinite XP as I recall), whatever).

45/40/35/30/45 is now 3.55 hits per round. Dual-wielding is 43/38/33/28/43/38/35 = 4.9 hits per round. Katanas are 41/36/31/26/41/36/45 = 4.3 hits per round. Now we're up to a 13%ish damage loss. And that number only grows larger as AB relative to AC drops (right now we're starting with AB = AC for single wielding which is extremely high AB).

In fact, let's imagine a scenario where you aren't quite so godlike yet (say, Chapter 2). Let's say you're level 20.

17 BAB (pretend, say, an 10 rogue/10 fighter or 12 rogue/8 fighter split)
21 strength + 5 from belt = 8 modifier
1 AB from weapon focus
7 AB from weapon (have enough money to upgrade somewhat but not all the way yet -- especially not for two weapons)

17 + 8 + 1 + 7 = 33 AB.

Something like the Mithral Golems have 39 AC. The Maker has 44 AC (with no spells, including no Haste). Elder Monk and Shadow Master have 37 AC if I did that math correctly. Vix'thra has 42 AC. Sabal has 42. Eldath has 38 AC, Eye Tyrant has 38 AC. Call it an average of 40 AC (and actually more for the hardest fights).

Single wielding is 33/28/23/18/33 = 2.1 hits per round. Dual is 31/26/21/16/31/26/33 = 2.75 hits per round. Katanas are 29/24/19/14/29/24/33 = 2.3 hits per round. Which is a 17%ish loss compared to normal dual-wielding and less than a 10% gain compared to single wielding despite needing three more feats, much higher dex (which costs you strength or other stats), and no shield benefit.

Now if your overall point is really "HotU is so easy that even if dual-wielding Katanas resulted in doing less DPS than single wielding you could still make it through the campaign" then sure...but even in HotU losing that 2 AB is still usually a 10-30% damage loss, facerolly or not.

Uh, no?

First of all, from the way the wording is phrased in-game, it sounds like only one damage upgrade, period, is allowed on a weapon.

Second, the way I suspect the code is working (or at least should be working, based on the fact it won't allow both fire and cold) leads me to think sonic and acid wouldn't work either.

Third, I went and tested it. He wouldn't upgrade my Astral Longsword +2 with any damage boost, acid or otherwise. Said I'd be wasting my gold.

So...not sure what to say here.

So you had enough money (while doing things like splitting apart the super arrow and bolt stacks to sell and only selling to the Drearing's Deep merchant and saving the highest value items for Chapter 3) to get two weapons upgraded to +10, Keen, 2d6 damage, and 2 regen each while also getting Haste and True Seeing across the pair? And then go into Act 3 and repeat that with two new weapons? While also having enough money to buy all of the True Names, including the big one? And, presumably, also buy item upgrades in Chapter 3?

And this was a fresh character in HotU? I don't even remember if you get your gold back at the end of Chapter 1 where you get your items back, but if so that might be a difference. I just don't remember having that much gold overall.

What do you mean by "forgiving" in this case? If you're referring to stealth/tumble/etc penalties then you could/should use a Large Shield -- only 2 penalty instead of 1 but gain 1 more AC. Tower shielding giving minus 10 skill might be a bit much for you, though.

Indeed. One build I'm fond of is basically your stereotypical fighter with strength, full plate, and tower shield...but with emphasis on rogue levels. Front-line fighter who has enough HP/AC to take the hits and enough AB/damage to just smash stuff in the face...but who's also able to disarm traps, open locks, and utilize other rogue skills that aren't dex dependent or penalized by armor. Usually use a morningstar for lowest chance of being immunitied and vs sneak vulnerable foes he can do devastating flanks if the enemy tries to ignore him or even just knock them down and then sneak attack.

Will he match a Weapon Master in 1v1 combat? No, but it fills two party roles in one go for the most part.

It could be in reference in the pen and paper rules, where armor check penalty from shields applies to weapon finesse attack rolls. You can get around that with mithral equipment, but that's really costly in your early career where you most want to use that shield. The NWN series is considerably kinder to dexterity-based characters than PnP in a lot of ways.

Totally agree; it's a very fun and well-rounded character. ,Makes a lot of sense to err on the side of Rogue, since there just aren't enough useful feats to merit taking more than 4 levels of Fighter.

@ MM

So against a very small percentage of enemies (AC lords) you may "suffer" some (i.e, they'll not drop quite as fast) as a result of -AB... but against the vast majority you have faster killspeed.

Daze triggers a lot with the increased rate of attack. it's not "effectively worthless" from my experience.

2d6 Rizolvir dmg mods won't stack with Astral Blade's 2d6 sonic, but will stack with Sword Saint Legacy's 2d6 sonic vs. evil.

Also, regarding amassing enough wealth: I never said I upgrade the Kaga-Tos fully; you don't need to fully max everything every step of the way (the campaign is a faceroll, remember...)

How are you drawing that conclusion? In Chapter 2 even stuff like the standard cult monks look like they still have 33 AC, drow warriors have 34 AC. And in Chapter 3 random Pit Fiends, Balor Lords, Succubi, Bebiliths, etc have 35-38 AC. You won't even be killing the Devil Warriors faster because you're one-shotting them anyway.

Plus prior to getting to Chapter 2 with souped up weapons it's going to have an even larger effect.

What enemies got Dazed who(m?) it mattered against?

Ah. So, er, why did you agree with me earlier?

Me: but you could do the same thing with an Astral Blade +8 (longsword) also in Chapter 3.
You: Again yes, long swords are great.

Sure, but what's your goal here? If you're trying to finish in the fastest time or whatever then upgrading the weapons once in Chapter 2 will save time and barely make any difference in Chapter 3. If you want easy (yeah, faceroll, I know) combat then I'd argue that having the better weapons makes far more of a difference in Chapter 2 against enemies like The Maker and Vix. Plus you're only gaining 3.5 sonic damage from the improved katanas, right? So if you "only" have the weapons at +8 versus +10 then you're already losing more damage -- 2 AB almost always outweighs 1.5 damage by a wide margin and when that isn't the case the enemy is so weak it doesn't even make a difference that you have the 1.5 more damage.

The katana gives +7 sonic damage average(2d6), and 1 physical damage because of a bigger damage die. I have to admit, that's a pretty big difference.

As for dual-wielding: Since the Op wanted a paladin-cleric, it's pretty much moot. Sword and shield all the way.

In general dual-wielding isn't very good for fighters anyway, unless you do indeed find weapons with damage bonuses of 20+ like you can get in HotU. It's not like this is NWN2 where you can get 6 extra off-hand attacks.

Bottom line: it seems that in the very specific instance of Hordes of the Underdark there's some benefit to being able to use a katana, but that won't apply in 99% of other mods or gameworlds you play on where those specific items and/or the item upgrade mechanic won't exist. Playing through Shadows of Undrentide first with a much smaller weapon selection is a bit of a pain, and I agree with MM that waiting to upgrade your weapon until chapter 3 is not worth it either.

A question for you, would you consider the # number of hits per round one of the main reasons to add more fighter levels to a rogue-fighter hybrid? I've currently got planned 16 rogue/4 fighter/4 shadowmaster (just for funsies) with single weapon use; would my overall combat sturdiness crap out at higher levels?

Personally I found Baldur's Gate 2 much more strict and difficult to use a rogue as a main character; were it might be necessary to take One-handed Style for the THACO boost (since all the backstab multipliers are for naught if the strike doesn't hit). I never tried dual-classing there, however.

Large Shield is a decent possibility; I like to have a lot of wands and summon spells on hand though so increasing the spell failure rate concerns me. I'm trying to avoid the micromanagement of stripping armor to cast buff spells, my last character was like that and the gameplay got too glitchy / annoying.

Good news: Wands and spell-scrolls do not suffer from any kind of arcane spell failure in NWN.

For thuggish fighter/rogue types in NWN I like to have a character wearing a chain shirt, large shield, and some kind of single-handed sword and axe. The character then has average DEX (aim for 18 with items) and higher STR.

This makes for a versatile character, capable of some traditional rogue-style stealth (unequip the shield if you have to) whilst having good defences with the shield and the tumble skill, but much better at dealing with crit/sneak immune enemies than a traditional DEX based rogue. Though the DEX version also has advantages.

Another advantage: the last patch added a lot of very cool looking round large shields, as well as kite-shaped ones with heraldic devices. With a crafting override you can use these even in the official campaigns where they don't appear in stores.

Adding more fighter levels would only improve your base attack bonus by one or two points. Not worth it. As a shadow-dancer, you can use hide in plain sight to make the enemy flat-footed and hit them more easily if you're struggling.

A character like that won't be as effective as a weapon-master or red dragon disciple or cleric or something in just chopping through enemies anyway, so a build like yours is good: it plays to the character's strengths whilst compensating for the typical rogue weaknesses.

Just make sure to hit a base-attack bonus of 16 by level 20 to get that extra attack. That is to say: take all 4 fighter levels before level 20, and then either 16 rogue levels, or 12 rogue and 4 shadow-dancer.

If you want to optimise further, taking a 5th fighter level at the right time in epic levels can get you Epic Weapon Specialisation. +4 damage is quite nice to have.

You might also consider not taking more than 1 level of Shadow Dancer. Levels 2-4 don't really add anything you don't already get from the rogue levels. With your build that does mean delaying the shadow dancer class until epic levels, though, which isn't much fun.

There's at least two main points of discussion here:

A, how does dual-wielding Katanas compare to dual-wielding non-Katanas?

B, how does fully upgrading the Chapter 1 Katanas compared to partially upgrading the Chapter 1 Katanas and partially upgrading the Chapter 3 Katanas?

The section you quoted was addressing part B -- so it would indeed be 3.5 sonic damage difference.

As for dual-wielding: Since the Op wanted a paladin-cleric, it's pretty much moot. Sword and shield all the way.

True enough. Too many feats invested, too high AB penalties, too high stat requirements. I modified dual-wielding in my modules to not give any AB penalty (that applies to dual-wielding with a non-light weapon in the off-hand as well) in order to bring it more in line with 1H + shield and 2H.

Something to keep in mind: number of hits per round is different from number of attacks per round -- you probably already know that but making sure we're on the same page. It's better to have 15 BAB and 3 more overall AB than to have 16 BAB, if that makes sense.

But yes -- every 4 fighter levels pre-epic will add another 1 AB overall, which is usually a 10-15% damage increase overall. That and feats are the main reasons to take fighter levels. Sturdiness would probably not be a problem in most modules -- once you get enough HP to survive spike damage most modules are not threatening. Either you have infinite Heal potions (and thus who cares about damage as long as you don't die instantly) or you're using Cure Wounds potions...which don't benefit from you having more HP. Cure Serious will always heal 18.5ish HP, doesn't matter if you're at 100/200 HP or 1000/2000 HP.

I will also echo what Jason said about more than 1 level in Shadowdancer not really helping (sadly). Ideally, if you can afford to, I wouldn't even take that Shadowdancer level until epic levels (something like 16 rogue/4 fighter, 12 rogue/8 fighter, or 8 rogue/12 fighter pre-epic). Those would give you 16, 17, and 18 BAB respectively pre-epic. And in epic levels BAB progresses at the same rate no matter what classes you take.

Good to know! I was little foggy on the point of spell-failure from scrolls, also the matter of how the game factors in Caster-levels (or Intelligence?) for non-mage users. I notice Stoneskin only gives me 60 HP instead of the full 100?

My character's currently running with a base 18 Dex and 15 Str, this is at level 13 without counting equipment. I like using Leather Armor / Shadow Legion Armor, though I kept it open just in case there was any benefit to stripping down to robes and using Dex-boosting gear (Linu's Pendant, Tomi's Ring, Bracers of Dex). The trouble with this line of thinking is that I made a decision early on not to use Weapon Finesse and I've got +5 belt of fire giant strength firmly on my character sheet-- and it does seem pretty appealing to throw Daelan's Pendant on top of this and forget about the AC-maxing bullcrap, what do you think?

I know what you mean about the crit-immune enemies, the mace has become my secondary weapon of choice for undead. Looking forward seeing what the Mace of Disruption is like soon. Oh, you know what was really funny? One time I ran into a mummy boss back when my katana was only +1. Couldn't do any damage to it, so I had to sit back with a Light Crossbow and pluck away with Bolts of Fire. Won the day with the weakest weapon in my arsenal XD

Anyhow, thanks for the other build-tips! I'll give that 5th fighter level a shot once I hit epic.
Yeah, with the way my feat-sequence turned out, I'm leaning towards taking the full 16 Rogue levels-- I'm curious about the AC bonus / damage reduction of Shadow Evade and the Summon Shadow abilities, though I realize it may just be a dinky garnish on top of my overall character plan. Here's what I went with in terms of feats-- pretty much I put off the Dodge and Mobility requirements just in case something better appeared in the meantime.

Starting Feats: Strong Soul, Power Attack

Rogue lvl 3 - Weapon Proficiency Exotic
Fighter lvl 1 - Cleave
Fighter lvl 2 - Weapon Focus (Katana)
Rogue 4 Fighter 2 - Great Cleave
Rogue 4 Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization (Katana)
Rogue 5 Fighter 4 - Toughness
Rogue 8 Fighter 4 - Improved Critical (Katana)

The AB of most enemies in the official campaigns is so low you could probably afford to skip the Natural Armor amulet. Bad idea in other campaigns, though. The biggest problem with your character is going to be a lack of AB -- you're already down a minimum of 2 AB which is going to cost you probably 10-20% overall damage, especially with the rogue levels also lowering AB. AB doesn't add the Str and Dex modifier, it simply takes the higher number of the two (assuming it's even a weapon that could be finessed). That's why splitting Dex and Str is not a good idea -- until you get to 10 Dex modifier (30 score) wearing a Full Plate will provide just as much AC as having 1 to 9 Dex Modifier. And if you're on a super high magic world (where you can get +12 to Str and +12 to Dex through items) then having 2 Dex modifier (14 Score) will let your AC be equivalent to that full plate while wearing Padded armor if necessary.

Realistically there's no point in going over 12 Dex (with the exception of needing 13 or 15 Dex to qualify for some feats) unless you're going full fledged Dex with Weapon Finesse or a ranged weapon.

As mentioned, the Mace of Disruption really isn't that impressive. If you're still in the OC then get the Drone Morningstar +4 (sonic damage and +4 enhancement). Morningstars in general will be better than maces -- they do 1 more damage and ignore *both* bludgeoning and piercing immunities/resistances.

Unfortunately, yes, Shadowdancer just isn't impressive except for HiPS. The abilities are too weak for the level you get them.

As Jason said, I'd skip Strong Soul, Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave for this build. Blind Fight, Knockdown, and Improved Knockdown will serve you far better at a minimum. Something like Expertise could also be handy.

What? That'll cripple his AB even more than it already is. I'd say the reverse -- focus on Strength items and go with full plate. Can keep around some lighter armor and Dex items if you need stealth, but you'll be losing AC (or AB if you drop Str items for Dex items) when you switch to that.

Taking more fighter levels is hardly the end of the world, though -- every four fighter levels in Epic clears up room for 2 Great Str or Great Dex feats. So that would mean 10-15% more damage from AB and 1 flat damage from Strength, meaning probably like a 16%ish increase overall, or effectively 4% per fighter level. If he was a Dex character then he'd gain 1 AB and 1 AC, so about 10-15% more damage done and 10-15% less damage taken.

Those four levels of rogue, on the other hand, give 2d6 sneak attack and a rogue-specific feat. That's maybe like 10% more damage (on sneak attacks only) or an increase of 2.5% per level. So whether you want more skill points or more offense will determine the combination of rogue to fighter levels.