Jason_the_Iguana: If you play, for example, the Aielund saga, I certainly wouldn't want to wait until level 21 to take my first rogue level. That's what... the 3rd module of the series?
Yep, the third module. I'd be waiting until level 22-23 (22 for Tumble dump, 23 for UMD dump if I'm at negative charisma). That's precisely what I usually do. Feats are tight enough pre-epic anyway.
Hell, when I soloed the Aielund Saga, I just did a straight-up Fighter/WM build. Had no troubles.
PeterScott: Then you listed what? 1 Module that goes to Level 40. That makes it rare. Not common.
I didn't say level 40 was common, you literally said you never had a level 40 character. The general "issue" exists in the upper 20s and beyond too -- where HotU ends, more or less. And there are quite a few modules in that level range.
PeterScott: This is the response of people who paper build, end loaded, Level 40 characters.
Like how I soloed the Aielund Saga from level 1?
PeterScott: When you actually play through, what is 1 BAB vs what 3 rogue levels give you: Feats: Evasion/Uncanny Dodge. Skills: Search/Disarm Traps/UMD, and enough tumble
boost AC by 4, pre epic. That seems pretty one sided in favor of taking the rogue levels.
It's a 4 AC boost for 4-5 levels. You also seem to have a lot of skill points suddenly. And if you take 3 levels of rogue pre-epic, how many are you taking in the epic levels?
And what feats are you giving up? Even as human feats are tight as a 10 Fighter/10 WM. You get 7 normal feats, 1 human feat, and 6 fighter feats.
WM requires...
Weapon Focus
Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
That leaves 8 extra feats.
Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
Knockdown
Improved Knockdown
Blind Fight
That leaves 3 feats for everything else, including...
Toughness
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Iron Will
Great Fortitude
Lightning Reflexes
Strong Soul
Luck of Heroes
Improved Expertise
Oh, and if you want to use exotic weapons or dual-wield, toss in a few more feats.
So which of those are you giving up?
PeterScott: Same reason you gave the Rogue 16 Dex in your example
You're missing my general point. Most people who complain about "single focus characters" are going to have a lower score than that because they think it's power-gaming. I've seen people legitimately play rogues starting with 14 dex and refuse to take weapon focus because "it's only 1 AB." They also tend to gear less to maximizing Dex. Those same people playing weapon masters then get high strength and literally have to take weapon focus. This is recounting actual experiences from people I've played with.
We can talk about min-maxed characters if you'd like to divert to that, but that wasn't my original point.
PeterScott: That doesn't negate attack bonus. I thought your big argument was, poor rogues couldn't hit anything.
My argument is a lot of people (the average person) often build poor rogues that can't hit anything and something a WM needs a 5 to hit on his best attack will heavily punish one of those poor rogues.