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Sarisio: Also, it seems Level is far more important in this game than just more HP, PP, stat and skill points. Looks like it also serves as multiplier to damage taken (and probably damage done too). Poison from Rasmagas was supposed to deal 6 damage against 0 Resistance, but it was dealing 7 to character with 10 resistance (poison damage didn't seem to vary). Game files are obscure on this, seems that main parts of damage formulas are hardcoded.
One should be able to test this simply by hex editing the save file to change your level and see how the game behaves.
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dtgreene: One should be able to test this simply by hex editing the save file to change your level and see how the game behaves.
Editing savefiles in LoX is a bit cumbersome (if you'll find out how to edit it, reveal to noone, you'll understand why). And LoX has very strange rounding (as you can see from EXP formula and real values). I will save messing with numbers when I got solid ground in this game. So far I am trying to get more Absolute Protection gear from vendor, but he doesn't roll it. I got 3 shields, all necks, all rings and 4 gloves, but nothing in other slots... It would also help to get Copper Infallible weapons, seems that Infallible is best Weapon affix.
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dtgreene: One should be able to test this simply by hex editing the save file to change your level and see how the game behaves.
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Sarisio: Editing savefiles in LoX is a bit cumbersome (if you'll find out how to edit it, reveal to noone, you'll understand why). And LoX has very strange rounding (as you can see from EXP formula and real values). I will save messing with numbers when I got solid ground in this game. So far I am trying to get more Absolute Protection gear from vendor, but he doesn't roll it. I got 3 shields, all necks, all rings and 4 gloves, but nothing in other slots... It would also help to get Copper Infallible weapons, seems that Infallible is best Weapon affix.
An alternative to editing save files is to instead alter the contents of memory while the game is running. This can be done on Windows with Cheat Engine, for example. (I don't know of a suitable Linux program for this purpose.)

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dtgreene: I once had an interesting softlock when playing Final Fantasy 6. I was fighting one of those ninja enemies inside the Zone eater, and the enemy killed two of my characters, leaving only Gau and Umaro alive. Gau was using the Magic Urn rage (he had a weapon equipped thanks to a glitch, but it wasn't a spell casting one) and Umaro had the Rage Ring but not the Blizzard Orb. The enemy was invisible.
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Sarisio: Gau was causing all kinds of bugs in FF 6. Occasionally I get urge to play FF VI after hearing Warring Triad BGM in Dissidia, but it quickly goes away after I remember amount of glitchy stuff in that game.
Actually, the particular softlock I mentioned doesn't involve any coding bugs. The game was working properly; it just didn't occur to the developers that this situation could arise.

I can think of a Final Fantasy 5 example, but it is a little contrived: Get in to the Galuf versus Exdeath fight with Galuf as a White Mage, equip him with a Healing Staff, and then Berserk him. You can no longer continue. (This could have been fixed by having Exdeath go to the next part of his attack script if you don't damage him fast enough.)
Post edited August 02, 2015 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: Actually, the particular softlock I mentioned doesn't involve any coding bugs. The game was working properly; it just didn't occur to the developers that this situation could arise.

I can think of a Final Fantasy 5 example, but it is a little contrived: Get in to the Galuf versus Exdeath fight with Galuf as a White Mage, equip him with a Healing Staff, and then Berserk him. You can no longer continue. (This could have been fixed by having Exdeath go to the next part of his attack script if you don't damage him fast enough.)
FF 5 example requires getting out of your way to do so. FF 6 has just so many things which could be screwed irrecoverably, so you need to learn walkthrough by heart - e.g., you could lose Mog and Shadow as permanent party members forever. Too many missables, and you were punished by opening all treasure chests, bceause they'd remain empty in World of Ruin...

Also made me remember how deep you could be screwed in FF X in Malboro fights. If you have poison-immunity (but not confuse) or auto-regen on you as well as high Evade, getting Bad Breathed by Malboros meant having to watch as your blinded and confused characters are hitting each other to no avail. Those LoX mushrooms with their breath act a bit like Malboros :)

Edit: one specific monster (I will avoid spoilers), who is MANY levels above me inflicted his maximum damage (which was physical) on my paladin. he also one-shotted everyone else, but damage wasn't higher than his maximum, so if level difference upscales damage, it doesn't go above Max. On other side, I could do only 1 damage to him at best...
Post edited August 02, 2015 by Sarisio
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Sarisio: Edit: one specific monster (I will avoid spoilers), who is MANY levels above me inflicted his maximum damage (which was physical) on my paladin. he also one-shotted everyone else, but damage wasn't higher than his maximum, so if level difference upscales damage, it doesn't go above Max. On other side, I could do only 1 damage to him at best...
Actually, I get the impression that that's how Attack Rating is supposed to work. I suspect that if you build a Soldier to maximize her attack rating (including leveling up that Weapon Mastery skill), you wiil eventually reach the point of consitently inflecting maximum damage with each hit. If that's not enough, add Song of Courage and Brittle Armor. (Will wounding the enemy first help here?)
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dtgreene: Actually, I get the impression that that's how Attack Rating is supposed to work. I suspect that if you build a Soldier to maximize her attack rating (including leveling up that Weapon Mastery skill), you wiil eventually reach the point of consitently inflecting maximum damage with each hit. If that's not enough, add Song of Courage and Brittle Armor. (Will wounding the enemy first help here?)
There are some semi-customizable parts of battle formulas in non-hardcoded part of gamefiles. Each point of difference of Attack with Defense increases/decreases damage by 1% (that's how I understood that part). But real results deviate form such calculations. Especially confusing it is when enemies use damaging non-physical attacks Example, Rasmaga's Area Effect attack)

What concerns chance to hit, it isn't that easy. Aimed Strike gives me only 1% bonus chance to hit some enemies, and max'd Song of Courage doesn't add as much benefit in % as in points. Seems to be dependent on Level as well. In any case, it doesn't increase linearly, which is BAD. Song of Courage also only increases hit chance from what I saw. Wounding only decreases hit chance and evasion of opposition.

What might confuse is that Defense as a stat -> direct damage reduction. Evasion -> chance to be missed. But Attack rating seems to be calculated from same value as damage modifier and as chance to hit, but increasing chance to hit doesn't necessarily increase damage modifier.
One question: Do you consider it worthwhile to level up either Icy Touch or Shocking Touch?
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dtgreene: One question: Do you consider it worthwhile to level up either Icy Touch or Shocking Touch?
Not in the beginning of game, as you don't have high enough Speed for stuns to last. And at midgame+ you'd prefer raw power (or natural stuns/wounds from weapons). On easiest mode there are even less reasons to invest into these spells.
Played a little more, still clearing out guards in the area east of the starting point. These guards actually give money, though the fights are taking a while since I still don't have Blizzard.

I have noticed that wounded enemies are slightly easier to hit, giving a nice potential use to wounding spells (which I don't yet have): If you are having trouble hitting an enemy, wound it with magic and your attacks will have an easier time hitting.

On the other hand, I am starting to actually run into PP issues due to flames costing 10 PP at first (12 at the moment).

Hunting doesn't seem to give food from human enemies, though I did randomly find 4 hours of food once. (It seems to be much like the random herbs you sometimes find.)

I'm wondering whether these guards are easier than the mushrooms. I am fighting them without blessings, but then again I am playing on the easiest difficulty and am already level 8 (and close to 9).
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dtgreene: <snip>
Those guards are expected to be done after visiting one person in Sorrentia (in the woods). Peronally I try to not break sequence.I also need to warn you that after you kill the first prince, all the guards will disappear, so you might miss on Exp/Gold.

Wounding by spells might be not that much effective unless it is just side effect. I like golden middle - Bard makes wounds by bow, Gaulen makes them bleed, Paladin stuns them, and Mage nukes if needed (otherwise also stuns).

PP Issues are bigger in Old-School Veteran+ modes, because you have less PP, and monsters have more HP.

Hunting gives you food from animal enemies for obvious reasons. Getting food from human enemies sounds a bit strange, though you can get it from specific enemies. The Food you find randomly on map has nothing to do with "Hunting" skill or any skill in that case. While walking on map and uncovering Fog of War you have following events being triggered (according to amount of cells uncovered +- random factor):
1. Random herb (600 cells on real mode, 500 cells on easy mode)..
2. Hidden treasure (500 cells on real mode, 400 cells on easy mode).
3. Food (700 cells on real mode, 600 cells on easy mode)..
4. Hounds (starting from Lv.4; 800 cells on real mode, 1200 cells on easy mode).
Random factor for pts 1-3 may overlap and you might get only 1 bonus in that case. Getting food bonus is a bit more rare because it often gets overlapped by either gold or herb. Hounds will never get overlapped.

Mushrooms early on give huge boost to EXP (560 EXP per group), I got 2 levels from clearing them. I also got over 100 of spores which sell for interesting price, but I am hoarder, and if I'll ever sell them, it will be with maxed Mercantilism. After clearing all those shrooms I am level 8 now and I am going to clean Sorrentia random encounters. Even though Burglars and Wasps are damn annoying, nothing will compare with shrooms in terms of what I had to pass through.

Edit: off-topc: still no avatar?:)
Post edited August 05, 2015 by Sarisio
I played a bit longer and have reached level 9 and am wondering about a few things:
1. Is it OK to not level up Gaulen's Learning for a couple levels? He has an experience bonus just for worshiping Godot (which none of my other characters are), and I really want other skills, including Envenomed Strike.
2. Is it OK to pass on leveling up Aura of Protection on my Paladin in order to get Mend Bleeding? (I only intend to get one level in that skill on her.)

Edit: Have you seen my topic on the Elminage Gothic regarding speedrunning *that* game? While I'm not a speedrunner, I think it might be a reasonable speedgame with many choices to make.
Post edited August 06, 2015 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: I played a bit longer and have reached level 9 and am wondering about a few things:
1. Is it OK to not level up Gaulen's Learning for a couple levels? He has an experience bonus just for worshiping Godot (which none of my other characters are), and I really want other skills, including Envenomed Strike.
2. Is it OK to pass on leveling up Aura of Protection on my Paladin in order to get Mend Bleeding? (I only intend to get one level in that skill on her.)

Edit: Have you seen my topic on the Elminage Gothic regarding speedrunning *that* game? While I'm not a speedrunner, I think it might be a reasonable speedgame with many choices to make.
Learning skill need be level'd up each level no matter what. You either invest fully into it or disregard (non-adviceabe). more levels = higher stats = higher chance to hit (which gets increasingly worse, with all blessings + Song of Courage + Aimed Strike = tons of misses for me now). As I am raising trading skills on bard, he can't shoot a single thing with his bow at all...

Mend Bleeding on paladin is skill far beyond entirely useless. on Old-School Veteran paladin is able to cast one and only spell in combat - Aura of Protection, if he will cast something else, he will be out of PP. If you will try to increase his Energy and Meditation, his combat skills will drop way too low.

Also if you noticed, damage over time effects get reduced by defense and resistance. Investing in good armor is much better, especially if to consider how battle formulas work here.

I saw Elminage speedrun thread, I am not fan of speedruns, so I didn't write anything. Imo, RPGs aren't made for speedruns (and any timed stuff for that matter) at all. It is other way around, strength of RPGs is in big world/dungeons, which you can't just explore in couple of sessions.
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dtgreene: I played a bit longer and have reached level 9 and am wondering about a few things:
1. Is it OK to not level up Gaulen's Learning for a couple levels? He has an experience bonus just for worshiping Godot (which none of my other characters are), and I really want other skills, including Envenomed Strike.
2. Is it OK to pass on leveling up Aura of Protection on my Paladin in order to get Mend Bleeding? (I only intend to get one level in that skill on her.)

Edit: Have you seen my topic on the Elminage Gothic regarding speedrunning *that* game? While I'm not a speedrunner, I think it might be a reasonable speedgame with many choices to make.
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Sarisio: Learning skill need be level'd up each level no matter what. You either invest fully into it or disregard (non-adviceabe). more levels = higher stats = higher chance to hit (which gets increasingly worse, with all blessings + Song of Courage + Aimed Strike = tons of misses for me now). As I am raising trading skills on bard, he can't shoot a single thing with his bow at all...

Mend Bleeding on paladin is skill far beyond entirely useless. on Old-School Veteran paladin is able to cast one and only spell in combat - Aura of Protection, if he will cast something else, he will be out of PP. If you will try to increase his Energy and Meditation, his combat skills will drop way too low.

Also if you noticed, damage over time effects get reduced by defense and resistance. Investing in good armor is much better, especially if to consider how battle formulas work here.

I saw Elminage speedrun thread, I am not fan of speedruns, so I didn't write anything. Imo, RPGs aren't made for speedruns (and any timed stuff for that matter) at all. It is other way around, strength of RPGs is in big world/dungeons, which you can't just explore in couple of sessions.
The problem is that there just aren't enough skill points to go around. Gaulen needs the following:
Axe, which costs 2 per level
Knowledge of Herbs/Terrain, which costs 2 per level
Envenomed Strike which costs 2 per level

That's just the points needed for the most essential skills, including the ones that make him functional in combat. If we add learning, that's a total of 8 skill points per level, and that's just not sustainable.

Also, I like to level up everyone on the same trip to town, and Gaulen is getting more XP than everyone else thanks to having Godot as his deity. (I like to level in town so I can see the stat requirements of new equipment.)

For my Paladin, I want her to do more than just use the protection aura and attack. Also, my Cleric just doesn't get enough turns to heal and deal with bleeding.

As for the Elminage speedrun, I think discussing such things can lead to insight on what works and what doesn't. If I start Elminage Gothic over again, I will likely take a speedrun-like route until I can farm Lesser Demons for experience, skipping all sidequests (except maybe the map) until then. (Also, there's the task of coming up with the fastest way to earn experience.)
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dtgreene: That's just the points needed for the most essential skills, including the ones that make him functional in combat. If we add learning, that's a total of 8 skill points per level, and that's just not sustainable.
No matter what, you either focus on Learning, prioritizing it as #1 skill or skipping entirely (not adviceable). I agree, everyone is skill point starved, hence I am... starting from scratch again, as I want choose different stat-ups and save-scum for skill books. You can save scum for them if at least half screen of fog stands between you and container. Chests seems to not drop them, I might need to check game files to be sure.
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dtgreene: Also, I like to level up everyone on the same trip to town, and Gaulen is getting more XP than everyone else thanks to having Godot as his deity. (I like to level in town so I can see the stat requirements of new equipment.)
You can choose Golot for everyone. Every % of Exp stacks. How about we both restart from scratch, you - on real mode?:) It is just so much easier to see there why some things work, and some - not.
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dtgreene: For my Paladin, I want her to do more than just use the protection aura and attack. Also, my Cleric just doesn't get enough turns to heal and deal with bleeding.
Strange, I was also in same areas as you, and had no problems with bleed. Some battles lasted forever though (thanks to enormously high chance to miss).

Also I don't know what's with hit chance in this game. I spoiled this my playthrough by cheating, raised everyone from Lv.10 to Lv.110, weapon skills maxed, Everyone has 50 Agi, and my characters still can miss. Of course they hit much more often, but still it is quite upsetting. I was surprised how I even made it to Nengorth having such abysmally low hit chance.
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dtgreene: As for the Elminage speedrun, I think discussing such things can lead to insight on what works and what doesn't. If I start Elminage Gothic over again, I will likely take a speedrun-like route until I can farm Lesser Demons for experience, skipping all sidequests (except maybe the map) until then. (Also, there's the task of coming up with the fastest way to earn experience.)
As an alternative - you can hex-edit experience, or ... make a very very thorough playthrough. You have skipped tons of things in your last one:)
Regarding Learning skill, I'm currently level 29 on Hardcore and I pumped Learning on most of the level ups, but not on every level. Since some of my characters die and I don't reload, some lag behind other in experience (but not much, largest difference being up to half a level worth of experience). Therefor I move around rings of experience to give them to the characters who are most behind in XP and I always pick Learning on next level up for these characters, while for the character who is most experienced I can skip Learning for a while. Also choosing a character lagging behind to fight in the Arena (if he can defeat the enemy) will raise his XP very quickly and catch up with the rest.