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Kneller: Would a bard be competent with that limitation? As the game goes on, he'll fall further behind the rogue. At level 5 he'll have 4 ranks to the rogue's 7. At level 11, it will be 7 ranks to the rogue's 12. At level 15, it will be 9 vs. 18.
For the most part, yes he'll be fine. Obviously, there is no substitute for a real Rogue. There are going to be a few traps and locks that he's going to miss, but with the INT boost and the boost from Bard Song, he should be able to handle all but the toughest. Keep in mind there are spells/items/potions that can boost INT and DEX as well, so this will help with tough traps/locks too.

It's a matter of what you're willing to sacrifice though. If you want to be absolutely certain you can find and disarm all traps and open all locks, you're going to have to go with a Rogue. If you're willing to accept that you're going to miss some traps and have issues with some locks, then you'll be fine with a character that cross classes the skills.
I wouldn't worry too much about relying on a cross-class skill. So long as you have a decent dexterity and intelligence score (which will boost your skill checks) and you have some scrolls of cat's grace and fox's cunning to boost your stats further if necessary, you should be able to temporarily increase your skill checks sufficiently to get through just about anything.
So, this ties into another question I have. Generally speaking, I won't rest in dungeons or other really unsafe areas. I also try to avoid clearing out a part of a dungeon, going to town, then coming back to finish. If I do the latter, it's just because I'm too bogged down with stuff.

That being said, I'm often finding that I'm using my wizard to cast invisible on the rogue/thief so he can scout out the entire level and remove any traps in the way. This usually burns through my second level spell slots. However, I don't see another more practical way to do it since the rogue can't sneak and search at the same time. I wouldn't have a problem keeping the rogue near the front of the party with find traps on and just creeping along, but then I can't really scout ahead to see what's waiting for me. Or, I can have the rogue scout ahead and not search for traps, but that won't end well either.

I mean, is there another way to go about this that I'm overlooking?

As for the bard, the only thing I'm worried about is finding traps, and disabling them to an extent. I can take Knock for the tough locks. I can use summons for floor traps. If only I could make summons open doors/containers...
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Kneller: So, this ties into another question I have. Generally speaking, I won't rest in dungeons or other really unsafe areas. I also try to avoid clearing out a part of a dungeon, going to town, then coming back to finish. If I do the latter, it's just because I'm too bogged down with stuff.
Resting in-dungeon is unavoidable in some areas. There are dungeons that are simply way too big to tackle in a single rest cycle and you'll get run-down rather quickly if you attempt them this way. I found one rest-cycle per dungeon floor was what was realistically manageable.
I try to avoid it as much as possible. It just seems cheesy to me. It's forced me to play a lot smarter and micromanage more. My trad party is in IWD1/Dragon's Eye right now and I did the first two floors without a rest. I did take up the priestess of Ilmater on her offer to watch over us as we slept. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, right?

Otherwise, it kinda breaks immersion for me. Here the party is, working their way through this dungeon, and they're going to hole up for 8-16 hours to refresh? And, during that time, the mobs that are left in the dungeon are going to just hang out and wait for you, oblivious to you having slaughtered an entire floor or two of their friends? I know this would be asking too much, but if they designed it in a way that, after a while, hostile were made aware of the intrusion and went into some kind of vigilant/patrol mode, while at the same time providing the occasional "hiding" place for the party to potentially rest up, I would feel better about it. But, yeah, like I said, it's asking too much.

As for the topic at hand, I keep going back and forth over the Bard vs. Rogue idea. i think the bard will let me be more creative, which I like, but the rogue would be a safer bet for an already limited party.
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Kneller: I try to avoid it as much as possible. It just seems cheesy to me.
I fully and whole-heartedly agree, but the combat is balanced on the presumption that you're going to be resting frequently.
I suppose. But I think it would have been better if they disallowed resting at dungeon locations entirely (with the exception of the occasional NPC to watch over you while you rest), forcing you to go back into town. And, when you do, (scant) reinforcements reappear on levels you've visited/clear. It would be more realistic that way.

As it stands, I have to go back to town plenty anyway to dump loot, especially with a party of 4. I'm resisting the urge to dalekeep in the bag of holding.
Ok, back to the party. I've started to build it based on the discussion so far, but I've had the sudden urge to take an even more traditional path for the second game. So, not only 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 thief, 1 mage/sorc, but also 1 Human, 1 Dwarf, 1 Elf, 1 Gnome/Halfling. I can be tempted to semi-cheat and have the human be either Aasimar or Tiefling. After all, in IWD1, I cheated on this theme and made my fighter a paladin.

Dwarven fighter seems like the obvious choice, but cleric is a possibility. However, there are no traditionally dwarven deities available, and anything else would be an odd fit. So, I'm thinking Fighter. And, the halfling is the obvious choice for the Rogue (and I did eventually decide Rogue over Bard). I can make him a halfway decent archer with his really high Dex.

So, that leaves the human, elf, cleric and sorc. My first instinct was to make the elf the mage, but I think there's an advantage to making him the cleric. That is, he will be able to use long swords and bows. Not bad for a backup tank. There's not much to do with cleric feats anyway, so I could always throw one into weapon focus to round it out. Anyway, being an Elf, the obvious choices for order would be Selune, maybe Oghma or Lathander. Doing this, I could make the sorc human (Aasimar) and put the Cha bonus to good use.

Or, I can flip it, make the Elf the sorc (losing the Cha bonus) and the human (Aasimar) a cleric. The Wis and Cha bonus would still be useful here, but I'd probably be limited to morningstars as my weapon of choice. Also, being Aasimar, likely orders would be Ilmater, Lathander, and Selune (in that order). Or, I can go with an ordinary human, in which case any good or neutral deity would be an option.

I know all these self-imposed limitations are ridiculous, but this is actually fun for me. Any advice on how to flesh out this party would be appreciated. :)
For the 'iconic' party, I'd go with Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Thief, Elf mage, and Human Cleric. These are pretty much as close as you get to the traditional roles (in 1st edition D&D, Elf and Halfling were actually classes as well as races, with the former being magic users and the latter being thieves). I wouldn't go with Aasimar for this party. May as well stick to tradition and go vanilla Human. And for the mage... well, Sorcerers rock, so not much argument there, but strictly traditional would be a Wizard.
Post edited October 27, 2013 by Coelocanth

but strictly traditional would be a Wizard.
The one thing I never liked in D&D was the memorization system. Unless you really knew what was coming, you ended up having to stick with general purpose spells and if you didn't have the right mix of that, then too bad. The sorc's flexibility and a cleric's spontaneous casting are a godsend in my book.

So, Shield Dwarf Fighter, Human Cleric (probably Battleguard), Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, and Moon Elf Sorcerer. I'll work out the builds and post for fine tuning later. Before that, I'm wondering about TWF. Is it worth it for a tank? I was thinking of taking the feats for either the fighter or cleric. However, neither will ever have the Dex for ambidexterity, so I'm thinking it wouldn't work out well.
Post edited October 27, 2013 by Kneller
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Kneller: The one thing I never liked in D&D was the memorization system. Unless you really knew what was coming, you ended up having to stick with general purpose spells and if you didn't have the right mix of that, then too bad. The sorc's flexibility and a cleric's spontaneous casting are a godsend in my book.
Yep, looks good.

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Kneller: So, Shield Dwarf Fighter, Human Cleric (probably Battleguard), Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, and Moon Elf Sorcerer. I'll work out the builds and post for fine tuning later. Before that, I'm wondering about TWF. Is it worth it for a tank? I was thinking of taking the feats for either the fighter or cleric. However, neither will ever have the Dex for ambidexterity, so I'm thinking it wouldn't work out well.
If you're not grabbing Ambi, then don't bother. You're far better off just going with a two handed option and a sword and board option.
Here's the party build. The feats listed aren't necessarily in the order I will get them, but in order of general priority. So, I think Improved Criticals is listed too soon for the Cleric and Rogue, but as soon as I can get it, I figure I should. It looks like, with this setup, the Rogue is the party face. I wish I could do the sorc (he has a +4 advantage with his Charisma), but there's no other way to work out the skills. Perhaps I should make Eagle's Splendor a higher priority for the Sorcerer? A face with 10 Cha seems kind weak to me. Also for the Sorcerer's spell picks, anything marked with a question mark were just picks I went with for lack of a better idea. But, they are in the order that I was thinking I'd pick them, and it's obviously not complete as I left some spots blank. I tried to focus him more on Evocation. First, because I recall we're dealing with a lot of evil clerics in this game, so I should be shooting for Reflex save spells. Also, because keeping him skewed towards one school alleviates the lower feat rate of a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard. Lastly, having a Battleguard means Axes are covered. So, for two-handers, that leaves the Dwarf with either a Greatsword (weird for a Dwarf?) or Halberd (probably not as good as Greatswords). Not to mention, he'll need feats in other things (a one-hander and/or non-slashing weapons). Or, should I pick a different cleric order entirely, leaving the Axes for the Dwarf?

Suggest away. :)

Male Dwarven Fighter
18/12/20/8/10/8
Neutral Good
Wilderness Lore
Power Attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus: Something
Weapon Specialization: Something
Improved Critical
Dirty Fighting
Blind Fighting
Dodge
Strong Back
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Forester

Female Human Cleric
Human Battleguard
Chaotic Good
14/12/14/8/18/8
Concentration (max), Spellcraft (whatever's left over stopping at 10)
Luck of Heroes
Snake Blood
Combat Casting
Improved Criticals
Heretics Bane
Dodge
Lightning Reflexes
Spirit of Flame?

Female Lightfoot Halfling Rogue
True Neutral
Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Search
10/20/10/16/10/10
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Finesse
Ambidexterity
Improved Criticals

Male Moon Elf Sorcerer
Chaotic Neutral
Alchemy, Concentration, Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft
6/14/12/16/10/18
Spell Focus, Evocation
GSF, Evocation
Combat Casting
Subvocal Casting
Spirit of Flame
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration

L1
Identify
Chromatic Orb
Magic Missile
Shield
Burning Hands
Mage Armor

L2
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Acid Arrow
Web
Eagle's Splendor
??? (Protection from Arrows?)

L3
Fireball
Dispel Magic
Haste
Melf's Minute Meteors
Slow? Skull Trap? Magic Circle?

L4
Mordenkainen's Force Missiles
Improved Invisibility
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Malison
Stone Skin
Wall of Fire?

L5
Animate Dead?
Sunfire?
Ball Lightning?
Shroud of Flame?
Lower Resistance?
Cloudkill?

L6
Chain Lightning
Acid Storm?
Tenser's Transformation?
Mass Haste?
Trollish Fortitude?
Globe of Invulnerability?

L7
Delayed Blast Fireball
Cacofiend? (especially if I take Magic Circle)
Mordenkainen's Sword?
Seven Eyes?

L8
Horrid Wilting
Power Word Blind
Fiery Cloud (good with Web)
Summon Fiend
Mind Blank?

L9
Meteor Swarm
Executioner's Eyes
Gate?
Black Blade of Disaster?
Post edited October 28, 2013 by Kneller
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Kneller: Here's the party build. The feats listed aren't necessarily in the order I will get them, but in order of general priority. So, I think Improved Criticals is listed too soon for the Cleric and Rogue, but as soon as I can get it, I figure I should. It looks like, with this setup, the Rogue is the party face. I wish I could do the sorc (he has a +4 advantage with his Charisma), but there's no other way to work out the skills. Perhaps I should make Eagle's Splendor a higher priority for the Sorcerer? A face with 10 Cha seems kind weak to me. Also for the Sorcerer's spell picks, anything marked with a question mark were just picks I went with for lack of a better idea. But, they are in the order that I was thinking I'd pick them, and it's obviously not complete as I left some spots blank. I tried to focus him more on Evocation. First, because I recall we're dealing with a lot of evil clerics in this game, so I should be shooting for Reflex save spells. Also, because keeping him skewed towards one school alleviates the lower feat rate of a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard. Lastly, having a Battleguard means Axes are covered. So, for two-handers, that leaves the Dwarf with either a Greatsword (weird for a Dwarf?) or Halberd (probably not as good as Greatswords). Not to mention, he'll need feats in other things (a one-hander and/or non-slashing weapons). Or, should I pick a different cleric order entirely, leaving the Axes for the Dwarf?
Your fighter's going to have 6000 feats, so I highly recommend specializing in two weapons (even if you're not going for Maximized Attacks). One blunt and one slashing/piercing.

Male Dwarven Fighter: I'd forget Wilderness Lore. It's not really of much use, especially since you can use your ROgue to scout out what's ahead anyway. This would also make Forester superfluous. Blind Fight is also not that useful since you'll rarely encounter invisible foes and your FTR also only gets a +1 bonus to AC from DEX, so you're not really saving anything with Blind Fight on the AC front (not a terrible choice though and if you're looking for a feat to take and have all the better ones, then this could fill the slot). You can't take Dodge or Dirty Fighting with only 12 DEX (unless you plan on adding a point to DEX later on). I've never used Strong Back, but I've also not gone with a smaller party, so I'm not sure how useful that will be. I would, however, recommend Dash. Doesn't look like much, but the extra movement speed can come in quite handy if you need to pull out of combat or close in close to a caster or archer.

Other feats to consider would be: Exotic Weapons (just so your FTR can at least use any weapon in the game without penalty), Bullheaded (+1 to Will saves for a FTR is never a bad thing), Discipline (same reason as Bullheaded), maybe a second pip in Cleave (which gives you Great Cleave - this I would put lower on the priority this though)

Female Human Cleric: As with the FTR, Dodge isn't an option due to the 12 DEX (although if you plan on raising it to 13+, then you can take the feat). Spirit of Flame? Sure, why not. There are a few Cleric spells that have fire components.

Female Lightfoot Halfling Rogue: if you're taking Ambidexterity, then take TWF as well. One is pretty much useless without the other.

Male Moon Elf Sorcerer: I've not taken the Spell Penetration feats, so don't really thing they're necessary. I'd far rather use those two slots for Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in another school (such as Necromancy). For spells:

Level 1 I'd grab Grease (maybe drop Identify - you can pay to have items identified. Once you get a short piece into the game, it won't really hurt monetarily). Knowledge:Arcana will help identify things anyway.
Level 2: Aganazzar's Scorcher (put that focus in Evocation to use, along with - later on -the bonus to fire damage)
Level 3: Skull Trap. I like this spell a lot. Toss up for me between Melfs and Flame Arror. On the one hand, you must roll to hit for Melf's which may be problematic for a caster with low BAB (even with the +5 from the spell). On the other hand, you already have a fire damage spell in Fireball, so Flame Arrow may be redundant. Perhaps consider another damage type such as cold from Icelance (especially nice if the spell manages to stun the target)
Level 4: Ice Storm
Level 5: Animate Dead, Cloudkill, Sunfire, perhaps Chaos.
Level 6: Acid Fog (drop Grease and/or Web here as well for some good fun), and I also like Power Word:Silence (good for those pesky mages and Clerics). Mass Haste, yes. Globe - not a bad choice.
Level 7: Finger of Death, Delayed Blast Fireball, and I also like Power Word:Stun
Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Power Word:Blind
Level 9: so many good spells. I personally like Executioner's Eyes, Meteor Swarm, Mass Dominate, and Wail of the Banshee.
Male Dwarven Fighter
18/12/20/8/10/8
Neutral Good
Wilderness Lore
Power Attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus: Something
Weapon Specialization: Something
Improved Critical
Dirty Fighting
Blind Fighting
Dodge
Strong Back
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Forester
Attributes all look good, but you've got a few problems with your feats.

* Dodge requires 13 dexterity as a prerequisite.
* Do not waste a feat on forester. There is exactly one time in the entire game this skill is useful, and if you've been maxing out the skill you'll be able to make the check.
* I'd advise taking a second level of cleave ("great cleave") at some point.
* I'd prioritize Iron Will much earlier. With only 10 wisdom your will save will be very low, and spells that target the will save can often completely incapacitate a character.
* I'd skip out on Lightning Reflexes and Strong Back and go for other feats; reflex saves, for the most part, just avoid damage, and your dwarf fighter will have so many HP that a bad reflex save doesn't matter. Your strength, similarly, will be so high that carrying capacity will be a non-issue.
* Consider "dash" (increased move speed) and "bull headed"/"discipline" (increased will save) to replace some of those less useful feats.
Female Human Cleric
Human Battleguard
Chaotic Good
14/12/14/8/18/8
Concentration (max), Spellcraft (whatever's left over stopping at 10)
Luck of Heroes
Snake Blood
Combat Casting
Improved Criticals
Heretics Bane
Dodge
Lightning Reflexes
Spirit of Flame?
* Not enough dexterity to qualify for dodge
* Don't bother with snake blood or lightning reflexes; Clerics have plenty of HP and reflex save isn't very important to them.
* Consider weapon proficiency for your Cleric; as good an excuse as any to put bastard sword proficiency on one of your characters.
* Spell Focus (enchantment or necromancy) are good picks for a Cleric.
Female Lightfoot Halfling Rogue
True Neutral
Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Search
10/20/10/16/10/10
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Finesse
Ambidexterity
Improved Criticals
* Forget about two-weapon fighting altogether. You don't have enough feats for it, and it's not a very good fighting style for rogues in IWD2 anyways.
* Slippery mind is a good feat, you might consider that
Male Moon Elf Sorcerer
Chaotic Neutral
Alchemy, Concentration, Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft
6/14/12/16/10/18
Spell Focus, Evocation
GSF, Evocation
Combat Casting
Subvocal Casting
Spirit of Flame
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
* I'd say pick a different school for spell focus. Single-target evocation spells largely do not allow saving throws in the first place, and your area-of-effect evocation spells are going to be used against mooks who are unlikely to save anyways. You're way better off with other schools.
* You can skip on combat casting; the Sorcerer won't be in the thick of things like the Cleric.
L2
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Acid Arrow
Web
Eagle's Splendor
??? (Protection from Arrows?)
Consider "see invisibility"
L3
Fireball
Dispel Magic
Haste
Melf's Minute Meteors
Slow? Skull Trap? Magic Circle?
Don't bother with minute meteors. Stinking Cloud would be a superb selection.
L4
Mordenkainen's Force Missiles
Improved Invisibility
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Malison
Stone Skin
Wall of Fire?
Confusion, Emotion (despair), and Emotion (hope) are all great spell choices. Some of the best enchantment spells in the game.
L5
Animate Dead?
Sunfire?
Ball Lightning?
Shroud of Flame?
Lower Resistance?
Cloudkill?
Hold Monster is exceptional. Don't bother with cloudkill; any enemy powerful enough to be worth expending a 5th level spell is too powerful for this to be effective. Don't bother with Ball Lightning. Cone of Cold is a good damage-dealing choice.
L6
Chain Lightning
Acid Storm?
Tenser's Transformation?
Mass Haste?
Trollish Fortitude?
Globe of Invulnerability?
Mass Haste - yes absolutely
Trollish Fortitude - no, the Cleric's healing spells are way better, and this can't even affect other party members.
Tenser's Transformation - your strength score is way too low for this. Don't bother.

Consider Disintegrate; great spell, especially against undead.
I'd forget Wilderness Lore.
I know it's next to worthless, but I can't think of where else to put the fighter's single skill point a level. Any suggestions?
Your fighter's going to have 6000 feats, so I highly recommend specializing in two weapons (even if you're not going for Maximized Attacks). One blunt and one slashing/piercing.
I figured as much. I was even thinking three. One for Greatswords, one in (probably long swords) for a single handed slashing weapon, and then a blunt (single handed). I would much prefer a dwarf with an axe, though. If I were to give the dwarf axes and go a different direction with the cleric order, what aside from Tempus would you recommend and how would you build it?
You can't take Dodge or Dirty Fighting with only 12 DEX (unless you plan on adding a point to DEX later on).
I'm planning to give the fighter (definitely) and the cleric (probably) a point in Dex later for at least Dirty Fighting.
* I'd advise taking a second level of cleave ("great cleave") at some point.
Is that useful? Wouldn't have I have to kill more than one enemy in a single round to make it worth it? How often does that happen?
I'd say pick a different school for spell focus.
I'm not sure what other schools, though. These spell picks (my own and suggested) are mostly evocation. There are only a few viable Transmutation spells (none of which have been picked, I believe) and about half of the applicable necromancy spells are touch spells (also none picked). Even if I take those level 4 enchantment spells, that's only a couple of spells, too.